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Thread: State of Israel and blessings

  1. #46
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Often it's preconceived beliefs. They were taught something a certain way, even though it's incorrect, and no amount of evidence will often help them see what's correct.
    True. And I especially like how you move the target when you are shown to be wrong.
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  2. #47
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Sarai does not mean "domineering" or "bitterness".

    If you get to create facts you can prove most anything.


    I'll give you the message with my own square brackets, k?

    27 [The Man] asked him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name]

    28 And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [meaning "heel", a very humble name], but Israel [meaning "struggles with God", a very proud name]; for you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.
    I, however, am not adding brackets, I was directly quoting, I didn't change a word. If you write a version of the Scripture, I would be glad to read it. You are a man of great knowledge and I am sure it would be a good version. Smarter men then I edited the Amplified version, I am just using it as a tool. All versions of the Word seem to have some biases, there is no way around it. Man's opinions often corrupt original intent.

  3. #48
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I, however, am not adding brackets, I was directly quoting, I didn't change a word.
    So you're quoting someone who added brackets? I'd love to know their justification for adding words to the bible.

    Man's opinions often corrupt original intent.
    Hoo boy does it ever...
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  4. #49

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    True. And I especially like how you move the target when you are shown to be wrong.
    I'll do this one more time:

    H3478
    ישׂראל
    yiśrâ'êl
    BDB Definition:
    Israel = “God prevails”
    1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
    2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
    2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
    2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
    2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile
    Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
    A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8280 and H410

    The word means "God prevails", created from two other words: śârâh which means "to prevail" and El which means "God"...God prevails. The word "struggle" has no part in this word or it's meaning.

  5. #50
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'll do this one more time:
    And obviously this is the only possible way to understand it. Even if native Hebrew speakers disagree.

    It doesn't even make sense in the context of the passage. "Your name will be 'God prevails', because you struggled with God and man and you prevailed?" How does that follow?
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  6. #51

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And obviously this is the only possible way to understand it. Even if native Hebrew speakers disagree.

    It doesn't even make sense in the context of the passage. "Your name will be 'God prevails', because you struggled with God and man and you prevailed?" How does that follow?
    Why isn't the word formed from "you" and "prevails" then? Or why not "struggle" and "God"? God named him, and he choose what word to use. BTW, the word in that verse is yâkôl which means "to be able" which is not the same word for "prevail" that forms the name Israel.

  7. #52
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why isn't the word formed from "you" and "prevails" then? Or why not "struggle" and "God"?
    It is "struggle" and "God".

    BTW, the word in that verse is yâkôl which means "to be able" which is not the same word for "prevail" that forms the name Israel.
    Israel doesn't mean "prevails". That's the whole point.

    "Your name will be Israel because you שָׂרִיתָ "Sarisa"... struggled with God..."

    Didn't he just have a fight with some heavenly being? And he won?
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  8. #53

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It is "struggle" and "God".
    and what root words in the Hebrew were used to form that name?

    Didn't he just have a fight with some heavenly being?
    No, it was wrestling not fighting, and it was God not "some heavenly being".

    And he won?
    No he lost the wrestling match but prevailed in a different way.

  9. #54
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    and what root words in the Hebrew were used to form that name?
    שָׂרִיתָ and אֱלֹהִים



    No, it was wrestling not fighting, and it was God not "some heavenly being".
    Hosea says it was an angel, actually.



    No he lost the wrestling match but prevailed in a different way.
    Hmm not what the bible says.
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  10. #55

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    שָׂרִיתָ
    And the definition for this word, in english please since this is an english speaking forum and it's impolite to speak in a foreign language without translating at least.

    Hosea says it was an angel, actually.
    And angels are messengers...in this case it was God. Jacob states he saw the face of God.



    Hmm not what the bible says.
    It doesn't say what you think it does. Jacob prevailed, but not in the wrestling part.

  11. #56
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    And the definition for this word, in english please since this is an english speaking forum and it's impolite to speak in a foreign language without translating at least.
    This word is unique, only appearing in this context. From the rest of the verse, it appears to mean "struggle".



    And angels are messengers...in this case it was God. Jacob states he saw the face of God.
    Angels are not God. Sorry.




    It doesn't say what you think it does. Jacob prevailed, but not in the wrestling part.
    My eyes must be deceiving me again.
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  12. #57

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This word is unique, only appearing in this context. From the rest of the verse, it appears to mean "struggle".
    This particular word isn't even in this verse...as you should know. I asked for the actual definition of the word.

  13. #58
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    This particular word isn't even in this verse...as you should know.
    I'm looking at it in the Hebrew at this very moment.

    I asked for the actual definition of the word.
    According to who? NIV says "struggle" NLT says "fought". ESV says "striven". Etc etc.

    As i said, it's a unique word only appearing in this context. Although you say it isn't in the verse at all
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

  14. #59

    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I'm looking at it in the Hebrew at this very moment.

    According to who? NIV says "struggle" NLT says "fought". ESV says "striven". Etc etc.

    As i said, it's a unique word only appearing in this context. Although you say it isn't in the verse at all
    EDIT: I was wrong, it does appear in the latter part of the verse but I am still waiting for you to give the definition.

  15. #60
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    Re: State of Israel and blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    We are talking about שָׂרִיתָ, one of two root words for Israel. That root word does not appear in this verse.
    In Hebrew, it's the 11th word in the verse.
    And you are avoiding answering what it's definition is.
    I've answered several times. The word only appears in this context, both here and in Hosea 12. A scholar like yourself should appreciate this phenomena.

    It's understood to mean 'struggle'.

    Going to ask me again?
    For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.

    Deuteronomy 4:31

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