True. And I especially like how you move the target when you are shown to be wrong.Originally Posted by ewq1938
Deadpan Snarker
True. And I especially like how you move the target when you are shown to be wrong.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Regular Contributor
***
I, however, am not adding brackets, I was directly quoting, I didn't change a word. If you write a version of the Scripture, I would be glad to read it. You are a man of great knowledge and I am sure it would be a good version. Smarter men then I edited the Amplified version, I am just using it as a tool. All versions of the Word seem to have some biases, there is no way around it. Man's opinions often corrupt original intent.
Deadpan Snarker
So you're quoting someone who added brackets? I'd love to know their justification for adding words to the bible.
Hoo boy does it ever...Man's opinions often corrupt original intent.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
I'll do this one more time:
H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
BDB Definition:
Israel = “God prevails”
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8280 and H410
The word means "God prevails", created from two other words: śârâh which means "to prevail" and El which means "God"...God prevails. The word "struggle" has no part in this word or it's meaning.
Deadpan Snarker
And obviously this is the only possible way to understand it. Even if native Hebrew speakers disagree.
It doesn't even make sense in the context of the passage. "Your name will be 'God prevails', because you struggled with God and man and you prevailed?" How does that follow?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
Why isn't the word formed from "you" and "prevails" then? Or why not "struggle" and "God"? God named him, and he choose what word to use. BTW, the word in that verse is yâkôl which means "to be able" which is not the same word for "prevail" that forms the name Israel.
Deadpan Snarker
It is "struggle" and "God".
Israel doesn't mean "prevails". That's the whole point.BTW, the word in that verse is yâkôl which means "to be able" which is not the same word for "prevail" that forms the name Israel.
"Your name will be Israel because you שָׂרִיתָ "Sarisa"... struggled with God..."
Didn't he just have a fight with some heavenly being? And he won?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
and what root words in the Hebrew were used to form that name?
No, it was wrestling not fighting, and it was God not "some heavenly being".Didn't he just have a fight with some heavenly being?
No he lost the wrestling match but prevailed in a different way.And he won?
Deadpan Snarker
שָׂרִיתָ and אֱלֹהִים
Hosea says it was an angel, actually.No, it was wrestling not fighting, and it was God not "some heavenly being".
Hmm not what the bible says.No he lost the wrestling match but prevailed in a different way.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
And the definition for this word, in english please since this is an english speaking forum and it's impolite to speak in a foreign language without translating at least.
And angels are messengers...in this case it was God. Jacob states he saw the face of God.Hosea says it was an angel, actually.
It doesn't say what you think it does. Jacob prevailed, but not in the wrestling part.Hmm not what the bible says.
Deadpan Snarker
This word is unique, only appearing in this context. From the rest of the verse, it appears to mean "struggle".
Angels are not God. Sorry.And angels are messengers...in this case it was God. Jacob states he saw the face of God.
My eyes must be deceiving me again.It doesn't say what you think it does. Jacob prevailed, but not in the wrestling part.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
This particular word isn't even in this verse...as you should know. I asked for the actual definition of the word.
Deadpan Snarker
I'm looking at it in the Hebrew at this very moment.
According to who? NIV says "struggle" NLT says "fought". ESV says "striven". Etc etc.I asked for the actual definition of the word.
As i said, it's a unique word only appearing in this context. Although you say it isn't in the verse at all
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Senior Member
EDIT: I was wrong, it does appear in the latter part of the verse but I am still waiting for you to give the definition.
Deadpan Snarker
In Hebrew, it's the 11th word in the verse.
I've answered several times. The word only appears in this context, both here and in Hosea 12. A scholar like yourself should appreciate this phenomena.And you are avoiding answering what it's definition is.
It's understood to mean 'struggle'.
Going to ask me again?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
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