That's not talking about judging the hearts of men.Originally Posted by ewq1938
Coffee Break
That's not talking about judging the hearts of men.
Coffee Break
That was actually before Paul worte that.
Senior Member
Nothing like good old stubbornness!
Coffee Break
Also, history shows us that if someone was in the military and came to faith they had to leave the military. If they were unable to leave they were required to promise not use the sword. If a Christian joined the military they were excommunicated.
As righteous as Christ.
I see no reason to believe the man had died or that other believers weren't like the Centurion. Jesus nor JTB ever told anyone in government to get out. And Paul tells us the purpose of government in Romans 13. There's no reason to believe there weren't plenty of believers in government after Jesus died.
Here's one who believed after he died.
Matt 27:50-54
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
NASU
I see no scripture where God commands believers to leave government.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
Deadpan Snarker
Maybe it's about how God doesn't want human sacrifice.
So if one stands by and allows their family to be slaughtered by a criminal, isn't that human sacrifice?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
You've got it out context. Paul is talking about them judging amongst themselves. Jesus said judge not lest you be judged. The context is different. It doesn't go to the argument at hand either.
guest
Butch5
Just in case you did not intentionally over look this the first time I posted it.
I wont show you where in the NT but I will just point you to His market place to go and buy oil for yourself there:
*hints*
The first time Jesus sends out His disciples to do His work in the earth, He instructs them to not bring a staff.
For obvious reasons: (because He is still on earth with them)
Where as, the second time Christ sends out His disciples, He sends/instructs them to bring a staff with them.
For obvious reasons: (because He will not be on the earth with them any longer)
Father bless and have mercy on us
Coffee Break
Seriously?
This is a straw man. No one said any one stands by and allows their familyto be slaughtered.
Coffee Break
buying a staff does not give one the permission for violence any more that buying a walking cane does.
Coffee Break
Firstly, you've made an assumption here. You said, "Jesus nor JTB ever told anyone in government to get out." There is simply "NO" way that you can know this. Just because it wasn't recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen.
John 21:25(KJV)
25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Your statement is an argument from silence. However, as I pointed out history shows differently.
Also, regarding Romans 13, The Roman empired did not allow Jews and Christians to serve in the military. So, the only way they would have been able to be in there would be by converting Romans soldiers. Now that changed as time went on and that is the reason that later we find the church allowing those who promised not to use the sword to be baptized.
And finally, it's a big leap to go from the centurion saying this was to Son of God, to making him a follower of Christ, especially since we know nothing else about him.
Coffee Break
I forgot to address this. Paul said to the Corinthians,Brother Mark---I see no scripture where God commands believers to leave government.
2 Corinthians 6:13-18(KJV)
13Now for a recompense in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
You can't be in government and be not be unequally yoked.
Deadpan Snarker
Well, why not? Won't God protect them if they're meant to be protected? "Turn the other cheek"? "Resist not evil"?
Won't self defense be disobeying God?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
As righteous as Christ.
You made the assumption that there were no Christians in government. I showed you there were in the time of Christ. God saw fit to point out that the centurion had great faith. Then you said no believers were in government when Paul wrote his Roman epistle. (Another assumption.) I showed where there was a government official that was saved. God saw fit to point that out in the scriptures too. Yet, no where did He see fit to point out any command for them to leave. Not one time.
In the gospels and in the OT we have plenty of examples of believers in government. I see no reason to think things have changed. Unless of course, you are going to present an, how did you say it, "argument from silence".
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
As righteous as Christ.
Doesn't mean that at all Butch. Jesus said it this way...
John 17:15-18
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 " They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 " Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
NASU
It simply means to not be of the world. Doesn't mean not to be in the world. Government and authority is sanctioned by God. To be separate doesn't mean not to be "in". It means not to have the world in you. Being in government doesn't yoke me to unbelievers. It is something established by God and for mankind all the way back to the days of Noah.
Here's a great verse.
Prov 29:2
2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
KJV
Your doctrine would have all people of the earth mourning because they would be ruled by wicked people in government.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
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