Self Defense~Is it sin?

[tango]

Yes, let's cut to chase. Your vows, are they vows that God has approve of and given? If your vow violates God's word, no it doesn't bind you. However, I see don't God accepting a vow to violate His law.

Can't you guys see that all you can bring to the table are these arbitrary arguments?

Arbitrary arguments? As opposed to what, arbitrary interpretations of someone else's words? What parts of the marriage vows do you consider to be in line with God's word, and which parts do you therefore consider to be inappropriate?

Jesus is that prophet and Peter said,


Acts 3:20-23(KJV)
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

That prophet said, do not resist evil.

Don't resist evil? Hmmm... that's an interesting one. So if a new strip club applies for planning permission in my town I'm not supposed to object on moral grounds because that might count as resisting it? Should I stop praying against it? What if someone tries to stab me, should I attempt to preserve my own life by simply pushing him to one side so I can make good an escape? Should I simply watch a rapist taking advantage of his victim rather than doing anything to protect her?

What happens if someone sets a dangerous dog to attack a human? If I have the means to protect them should I step in and do so, even if it means destroying the dog? Presumably under your nicely quoted "do not resist evil" I should just let a child be savaged and maybe killed by a vicious dog? Somehow I don't think that's what was meant by "do not resist evil".

You see, all you are doing is presenting your own interpretation of selected texts in a manner that comes across as glib and completely disconnected from reality.

[Butch5]

Arbitrary arguments? As opposed to what, arbitrary interpretations of someone else's words? What parts of the marriage vows do you consider to be in line with God's word, and which parts do you therefore consider to be inappropriate?

Did your marriage vows come out of the Scriptures?

Don't resist evil? Hmmm... that's an interesting one. So if a new strip club applies for planning permission in my town I'm not supposed to object on moral grounds because that might count as resisting it? Should I stop praying against it? What if someone tries to stab me, should I attempt to preserve my own life by simply pushing him to one side so I can make good an escape? Should I simply watch a rapist taking advantage of his victim rather than doing anything to protect her?

What happens if someone sets a dangerous dog to attack a human? If I have the means to protect them should I step in and do so, even if it means destroying the dog? Presumably under your nicely quoted "do not resist evil" I should just let a child be savaged and maybe killed by a vicious dog? Somehow I don't think that's what was meant by "do not resist evil".

Here we go again with the hypothetical situations. Can God protect His people or not? If He can does He need help?

You see, all you are doing is presenting your own interpretation of selected texts in a manner that comes across as glib and completely disconnected from reality.

I didn't give you an interpretation, they're Jesus words not mine. This is what Christians typically do when the don like what the Scriptures say, oh, that's your interepretaion. Well, as I said, I didn't give an interpretation. The context of, do not resisit evil is,

Matthew 5:38-39(KJV)
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

It seems many Christians want to retain the eye for an eye concept.

Resist
436 avnqi,sthmi anthistemi {anth-is'-tay-mee}
Meaning: 1) to set one's self against, to withstand, resist, oppose 2) to set against

Not
3361 mh, me {may}
Meaning: 1) no, not lest

Evil
4190 ponhro,j poneros {pon-ay-ros'}
Meaning: 1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships 1a) pressed and harassed by labours 1b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble 2) bad, of a bad nature or condition 2a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind 2b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad

It not my interpretation.

[Brother Mark]

Matthew 5:38-39(KJV)
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

We do this. No doubt. But I think scripture also teaches that authority is not to do this. When I am in a place of authority, as Joshua, David, Abraham, etc. were, they were commanded by God to defend those under their care.

We are not to demand an "eye for an eye". That is government's job as specified in Romans 13. As an authority or government over my family, it is part of my job to protect my wife so she can "turn the other cheek". My government is to do the same for me so that I can turn the other cheek.

Prov 29:2

2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
KJV

God does not intend for only wicked souls to be in authority or everyone everywhere would be in mourning.

[ewq1938]

Matthew 5:38-39(KJV)
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So are you also promoting that we disband Police units and have no law enforcement because laws resist evil? OR are you completely misunderstanding and misusing Christ's words?

Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Would you send me 2,000 dollars? I can PM you my paypal email address. Thank you.

[Butch5]

Doesn't mean that at all Butch. Jesus said it this way...

John 17:15-18
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 " They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 " Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
NASU

It simply means to not be of the world. Doesn't mean not to be in the world. Government and authority is sanctioned by God. To be separate doesn't mean not to be "in". It means not to have the world in you. Being in government doesn't yoke me to unbelievers. It is something established by God and for mankind all the way back to the days of Noah.

Here's a great verse.

Prov 29:2

2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
KJV

Your doctrine would have all people of the earth mourning because they would be ruled by wicked people in government.

Being in government doesn make you unequally yoked? You're kidding right? So, serving with an unbeliever, seeking the same goal is not being unequally yoked? Really? That's funny, the early Christians didn't understand the aposltes teaching that way.

[Butch5]

So are you also promoting that we disband Police units and have no law enforcement because laws resist evil? OR are you completely misunderstanding and misusing Christ's words?

Neither, Jesus words are for His followers. Not everyone follows Him. It's funny how you guys have to keep asking these types of questions since there is no Biblical argument. BTW, this is a logical fallacy, It's called an appeal to emotion.

[ewq1938]

Neither, Jesus words are for His followers. Not everyone follows Him. It's funny how you guys have to keep asking these types of questions since there is no Biblical argument. BTW, this is a logical fallacy, It's called an appeal to emotion.

I am following your logic...and yes its fallacious. Christ isn't saying we can't defend ourselves against harmful attack or attempted murder. Turning the other cheek is a figure of speech not meant completely literal. If someone hits me, I can choose to turn away or I can hit them back if I wish. Christ did not say anything to prevent anyone from defending themselves.

[Brother Mark]

Being in government doesn make you unequally yoked? You're kidding right? So, serving with an unbeliever, seeking the same goal is not being unequally yoked? Really? That's funny, the early Christians didn't understand the aposltes teaching that way.

My job doesn't yoke me to anyone. government as a job is no different than any other job. Are you suggesting we can only work for believers? Really?

Again, God says this happens when only the wicked rule...

Prov 29:2

2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
KJV

Nothing like sentencing the people to mourn because only the wicked are allowed to rule. But then God never did say only the wicked should be in places of authority.

[ewq1938]

Neither, Jesus words are for His followers. Not everyone follows Him. It's funny how you guys have to keep asking these types of questions since there is no Biblical argument. BTW, this is a logical fallacy, It's called an appeal to emotion.

And when can I borrow that money?

[Butch5]

You made the assumption that there were no Christians in government. I showed you there were in the time of Christ. God saw fit to point out that the centurion had great faith. Then you said no believers were in government when Paul wrote his Roman epistle. (Another assumption.) I showed where there was a government official that was saved. God saw fit to point that out in the scriptures too. Yet, no where did He see fit to point out any command for them to leave. Not one time.

In the gospels and in the OT we have plenty of examples of believers in government. I see no reason to think things have changed. Unless of course, you are going to present an, how did you say it, "argument from silence".

Mark, all you've show is that two centurions acknowledged God and assumed that they became Christians "Without" any further evidence. Simon Magus believed also and Scripture says he was baptized was he Christian? The man who called Jesus good teacher believed, did he follow? No, Jesus told him to sell what he had and give it to the poor and he left. When Jesus spoke of eating His flesh John says that many of His followers left. Just because some had faith didn't mean they followed.

[Butch5]

Well, why not? Won't God protect them if they're meant to be protected? "Turn the other cheek"? "Resist not evil"?

Won't self defense be disobeying God?

Because Jesus said it was fine to flee

[Slug1]

Just because some had faith didn't mean they followed.

Produce the scriptures to support this Butch... otherwise, you are speaking through silence. The scriptures you are reffing show followers without faith and that came to light when they stopped following due to their disagreement with what Jesus spoke about the blood.

So, you say that people have faith but didn't follow? That don't make sense, so can you support the quote with scripture?

[Brother Mark]

Mark, all you've show is that two centurions acknowledged God and assumed that they became Christians "Without" any further evidence. Simon Magus believed also and Scripture says he was baptized was he Christian? The man who called Jesus good teacher believed, did he follow? No, Jesus told him to sell what he had and give it to the poor and he left. When Jesus spoke of eating His flesh John says that many of His followers left. Just because some had faith didn't mean they followed.

No. I showed more than that. The first time, Jesus said this man's faith was great! He had not found such great faith in "all of Israel". IOW, this man had more faith than even the apostles did at that time.

Matt 8:5-13

5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, " Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." 8 But the centurion said, " Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.
NASU

Jesus himself confirmed this man was saved and indicated he would dine with Abraham in eternity.

[GitRDunn]

Sure it does. If you're placed in a a life threatening situation, there are two who can save you, you or God. If you lash out then you're trusting in yourself, not God. You don't know what God's plans are. He could deal with the situation any way He chooses to. What if Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, had said, well, they're going to throw us into that fire, but, we trust God so, let's grabs their swords and fight since we're going to die anyway? But rather than dying by sword in front of the king they chose to trust God for their protection and God delivered them out of the fire.

Who's to say God won't save you by you using your God-given abilities (i.e.- smarts and strength) to not die? If I can talk my way out of a potentially violent situation, is that wrong too because I am defending myself with my words?

Seriously?

This is a straw man. No one said any one stands by and allows their familyto be slaughtered.

But if you aren't allowed to defend them against an attacker, what else can you do by stand by and allow them to be slaughtered?

Being in government doesn make you unequally yoked? You're kidding right? So, serving with an unbeliever, seeking the same goal is not being unequally yoked? Really? That's funny, the early Christians didn't understand the aposltes teaching that way.

So now no believer can ever have the same goals and work towards the same ends as an unbeliever? I guess we'd better re-institute slavery then because there were unbelievers who wanted the slaves freed. Oh wait, there were also unbelievers who wanted slavery. I guess we'd better just not take a position then, but there were unbelievers who didn't take a position either. We can't support either side and we can't not support a side, either. At least, that is where your logic leads us. What would you have us do?

[ewq1938]

Because Jesus said it was fine to flee

Jesus also said to loan money when asked:

Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Would you loan me 2,000 dollars? I can PM you my paypal email address. Thank you.