Like Brother Mark said, just watch the first one. It's great. The rest are rubbish though.Originally Posted by Nobunaga
Deadpan Snarker
Like Brother Mark said, just watch the first one. It's great. The rest are rubbish though.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Love edifies
So what happens then? I find that interesting that you said there is no sacrifice for "intentional sins" and I am trying to understand your statement in light of a scripture in Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Deadpan Snarker
As I said, it depends on the crime.
Yeah but that doesn't rule out other punishments as atonement.Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Soli Deo Gloria
What is your take on the Laws and codes and King Davids sins ?
and would this be considered a defiant sin against God ? I think Keyser Sose poses an interesting question here.
Deadpan Snarker
King David's actions were not defiant although they were certainly intentional.
I've read much on it and haven't come to any firm conclusion on the matter.
At the end of the day, he was the king David; prophet, the first warrior-poet, the author of Psalms, the founder of the Davidic dynasty from whence the messiah shall come.
So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on him.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
As righteous as Christ.
These are the kind of statements that I read and go "wow". So often, I am amazed at my own assumptions in scripture and how often they have led me astray.
What is the difference between intentional and defiant? I get what you are saying... defiance is intentional. But intentional is not always defiant. Can you explain the difference?
One thing we know, a "broken and contrite heart" God will not despise and "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit". We know that repentance is necessary for such sins to be forgiven.I've read much on it and haven't come to any firm conclusion on the matter.
At the end of the day, he was the king David; prophet, the first warrior-poet, the author of Psalms, the founder of the Davidic dynasty from whence the messiah shall come.
So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on him.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
Soli Deo Gloria
I think you are correct to say the sin/sins were intentional but not defiant he was not a reviler of God. Quite the opposite as has been said before he was a man after God's own heart.
Love edifies
so then what you are saying is there is a punishment that this person is under judgement?
So then defiance as opposed to intentional sin is the most dangerous one....this is interesting.
Sheds a whole new light on these verses for me...Thanks.
Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
That word there, received helps pull it all together.
receive from blue strong's concordance.
1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
Deadpan Snarker
Well, it is seen like this.
An accidental sin would obviously be one committed in error: Either the action was an accident, or was not known to be sinful.
An intentional sin would be one committed with intent: the act is known to be a sin, but the person does it anyway. Perhaps succumbing to temptation? Perhaps out of rage? Who knows.
A defiant sin is one committed intentionally, an act known to be wrong, specifically to defy God.
Obviously this takes a special sort of mindset.
Agreed. But in Judaism there's also the little matter of the human victim.One thing we know, a "broken and contrite heart" God will not despise and "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit". We know that repentance is necessary for such sins to be forgiven.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Yes. I think you understand me very well.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
When the Sanhedrin carried out judgement that too could atone.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Eph 2:8
Hmmmm, i am not sure i follow. so are there 3 types of sins?
1- unintentional
2- intentional
3- intentionally defiant
could someone explain these and perhaps include some sins in the bible that we can use as examples including David's sins. i have real trouble not seeing how David writing a letter and having the husband hand deliver David's orders to have him murdered doesn't fall into defiant. at this point David clearly saw what he had done as wrong as he tried to get the husband drunk and cover up his sin.... surely we can't classify this as unintentional.
my last question is if there are indeed 3 categories why do i only read 2 in numbers? did God not know we had 3 categories and forgot? (if you smell sarcasm here you are right!
Deadpan Snarker
I thought I already did.
It was intentional, not defiant. He wasn't doing it to spite God.i have real trouble not seeing how David writing a letter and having the husband hand deliver David's orders to have him murdered doesn't fall into defiant. at this point David clearly saw what he had done as wrong as he tried to get the husband drunk and cover up his sin.... surely we can't classify this as unintentional.
Actually, verse 32 to 36 has someone committing an intentional sin.my last question is if there are indeed 3 categories why do i only read 2 in numbers? did God not know we had 3 categories and forgot? (if you smell sarcasm here you are right!
There are three different Hebrew words to describe "sin".
"Chet" means "missed the mark" (like an archer missing a target). This means an accidental sin.
"Avon" means "desire". This is an intentional sin.
"Pesha" means "rebellion". Obviously a defiant sin against God.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Eph 2:8
so what was/is the punishment for "Avon"?
back on David, why does David say he sinned against God when he repents? Was this the first time that David realized that a sin against another person is a sin against God and therefore David was incapable of sin type 3 out of sheer ignorance?
Deadpan Snarker
It depends on the sin. I said that already.
dunno, because that's how one repents?back on David, why does David say he sinned against God when he repents?
I don't think you understand what the word 'defiant' or 'rebellious' means.Was this the first time that David realized that a sin against another person is a sin against God and therefore David was incapable of sin type 3 out of sheer ignorance?
If I shoplift a candy bar, knowing it's wrong, because I want a snack, that's an intentional sin.
If I shoplift a candy bar, knowing it's wrong, because I want to defy God, that's a defiant sin.
See the difference?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
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