cure-real
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 50

Thread: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    Just aswel your from New Yoik and get my sarcasm or you could be offended lol. Highlander was a rubbish movie btw, (if i remember correctly) i may have to watch it again.. as it seems to have made quite an impression on you so there must be something to it.
    Like Brother Mark said, just watch the first one. It's great. The rest are rubbish though.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The beautiful farm in the center of heaven!
    Posts
    2,919
    Blog Entries
    12

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Well "intentional" is something different. Also doesn't have a sacrifice though.

    So what happens then? I find that interesting that you said there is no sacrifice for "intentional sins" and I am trying to understand your statement in light of a scripture in Hebrews.
    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    So what happens then?
    As I said, it depends on the crime.
    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
    Yeah but that doesn't rule out other punishments as atonement.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  4. #19

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Some sin was beyond the capacity of a human court to punish. Numbers 15 says so.
    It's a complex legal code so I can't say for all instances. For theft, compensation must be made. For assault, medical bills plus lost wages plus pain and suffering must be paid. Etc.

    The Talmud has whole volumes devoted to biblical criminal code.
    What is your take on the Laws and codes and King Davids sins ?

    and would this be considered a defiant sin against God ? I think Keyser Sose poses an interesting question here.


  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    What is your take on the Laws and codes and King Davids sins ?

    and would this be considered a defiant sin against God ?
    King David's actions were not defiant although they were certainly intentional.

    I've read much on it and haven't come to any firm conclusion on the matter.

    At the end of the day, he was the king David; prophet, the first warrior-poet, the author of Psalms, the founder of the Davidic dynasty from whence the messiah shall come.

    So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on him.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    12,092

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    King David's actions were not defiant although they were certainly intentional.
    These are the kind of statements that I read and go "wow". So often, I am amazed at my own assumptions in scripture and how often they have led me astray.

    What is the difference between intentional and defiant? I get what you are saying... defiance is intentional. But intentional is not always defiant. Can you explain the difference?

    I've read much on it and haven't come to any firm conclusion on the matter.

    At the end of the day, he was the king David; prophet, the first warrior-poet, the author of Psalms, the founder of the Davidic dynasty from whence the messiah shall come.

    So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on him.
    One thing we know, a "broken and contrite heart" God will not despise and "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit". We know that repentance is necessary for such sins to be forgiven.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  7. #22

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    King David's actions were not defiant although they were certainly intentional.

    I've read much on it and haven't come to any firm conclusion on the matter.

    At the end of the day, he was the king David; prophet, the first warrior-poet, the author of Psalms, the founder of the Davidic dynasty from whence the messiah shall come.

    So I'm hesitant to pass judgement on him.
    I think you are correct to say the sin/sins were intentional but not defiant he was not a reviler of God. Quite the opposite as has been said before he was a man after God's own heart.


  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The beautiful farm in the center of heaven!
    Posts
    2,919
    Blog Entries
    12

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    As I said, it depends on the crime.
    Yeah but that doesn't rule out other punishments as atonement.

    so then what you are saying is there is a punishment that this person is under judgement?

    So then defiance as opposed to intentional sin is the most dangerous one....this is interesting.

    Sheds a whole new light on these verses for me...Thanks.

    Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    That word there, received helps pull it all together.
    receive from blue strong's concordance.

    1) to take
    a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
    1) to take up a thing to be carried
    2) to take upon one's self
    b) to take in order to carry away
    1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
    c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
    1) to claim, procure, for one's self
    a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
    2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
    3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
    4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
    5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
    6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
    d) to take
    1) to admit, receive
    2) to receive what is offered
    3) not to refuse or reject
    4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
    a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    These are the kind of statements that I read and go "wow". So often, I am amazed at my own assumptions in scripture and how often they have led me astray.

    What is the difference between intentional and defiant? I get what you are saying... defiance is intentional. But intentional is not always defiant. Can you explain the difference?
    Well, it is seen like this.

    An accidental sin would obviously be one committed in error: Either the action was an accident, or was not known to be sinful.

    An intentional sin would be one committed with intent: the act is known to be a sin, but the person does it anyway. Perhaps succumbing to temptation? Perhaps out of rage? Who knows.

    A defiant sin is one committed intentionally, an act known to be wrong, specifically to defy God.

    Obviously this takes a special sort of mindset.


    One thing we know, a "broken and contrite heart" God will not despise and "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit". We know that repentance is necessary for such sins to be forgiven.
    Agreed. But in Judaism there's also the little matter of the human victim.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    I think you are correct to say the sin/sins were intentional but not defiant he was not a reviler of God. Quite the opposite as has been said before he was a man after God's own heart.
    Yes. I think you understand me very well.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    so then what you are saying is there is a punishment that this person is under judgement?
    When the Sanhedrin carried out judgement that too could atone.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  12. #27

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Hmmmm, i am not sure i follow. so are there 3 types of sins?
    1- unintentional
    2- intentional
    3- intentionally defiant

    could someone explain these and perhaps include some sins in the bible that we can use as examples including David's sins. i have real trouble not seeing how David writing a letter and having the husband hand deliver David's orders to have him murdered doesn't fall into defiant. at this point David clearly saw what he had done as wrong as he tried to get the husband drunk and cover up his sin.... surely we can't classify this as unintentional.

    my last question is if there are indeed 3 categories why do i only read 2 in numbers? did God not know we had 3 categories and forgot? (if you smell sarcasm here you are right!

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    Hmmmm, i am not sure i follow. so are there 3 types of sins?
    1- unintentional
    2- intentional
    3- intentionally defiant

    could someone explain these
    I thought I already did.

    i have real trouble not seeing how David writing a letter and having the husband hand deliver David's orders to have him murdered doesn't fall into defiant. at this point David clearly saw what he had done as wrong as he tried to get the husband drunk and cover up his sin.... surely we can't classify this as unintentional.
    It was intentional, not defiant. He wasn't doing it to spite God.
    my last question is if there are indeed 3 categories why do i only read 2 in numbers? did God not know we had 3 categories and forgot? (if you smell sarcasm here you are right!
    Actually, verse 32 to 36 has someone committing an intentional sin.

    There are three different Hebrew words to describe "sin".

    "Chet" means "missed the mark" (like an archer missing a target). This means an accidental sin.

    "Avon" means "desire". This is an intentional sin.

    "Pesha" means "rebellion". Obviously a defiant sin against God.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

  14. #29

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I thought I already did.

    It was intentional, not defiant. He wasn't doing it to spite God.

    Actually, verse 32 to 36 has someone committing an intentional sin.

    There are three different Hebrew words to describe "sin".

    "Chet" means "missed the mark" (like an archer missing a target). This means an accidental sin.

    "Avon" means "desire". This is an intentional sin.

    "Pesha" means "rebellion". Obviously a defiant sin against God.
    so what was/is the punishment for "Avon"?

    back on David, why does David say he sinned against God when he repents? Was this the first time that David realized that a sin against another person is a sin against God and therefore David was incapable of sin type 3 out of sheer ignorance?

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    34,484

    Re: Unintentional vs. intentional sin... Num 15

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    so what was/is the punishment for "Avon"?
    It depends on the sin. I said that already.
    back on David, why does David say he sinned against God when he repents?
    dunno, because that's how one repents?
    Was this the first time that David realized that a sin against another person is a sin against God and therefore David was incapable of sin type 3 out of sheer ignorance?
    I don't think you understand what the word 'defiant' or 'rebellious' means.

    If I shoplift a candy bar, knowing it's wrong, because I want a snack, that's an intentional sin.
    If I shoplift a candy bar, knowing it's wrong, because I want to defy God, that's a defiant sin.

    See the difference?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. unintentional versus intentional sins
    By david in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: Jan 7th 2012, 07:33 AM
  2. UNintentional Sin
    By Slug1 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: Jan 6th 2012, 07:53 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •