If I've been babtized by the Holy Spirit, why cant I speak in tongues?

[PJW]

How can you call them "Christians" if they are not obedient to God?

[Colight]

How can you call them "Christians" if they are not obedient to God?

What point is to your question?
What Doctrine is gained by some title man calls him self?
Can a Christian be disobedient to God? ( Yes Look at the Church of Corinth)
Therefore your question appears uninformed.

[Slug1]

How can you call them "Christians" if they are not obedient to God?

Can a Christian be disobedient to God? ( Yes Look at the Church of Corinth)

PJW, I will agree with Colight on this one.

Here is what Paul called the disobedient and UNdiscipled Corinthians, please lets read the scripture together:

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

You will also notice that AFTER Paul was done fixing (putting everything into order) all these people who accepted Christ, we don't find John having to hand them a bad PROGRESS report like 7 other churches.

So, while they were disobedient... Paul made it clear they were Christians... just ones in need of a slap side the head and to be pointed in the right direction.

A job that many leaders in churches today fail to do and thus... we have churches today acting EXACTLY like the Corinthians did BEFORE they got slapped by a leader who was proactive and discipled them.

Today, all we seem to have is a bunch of leaders who ALLOW disorder, all we seem to have is another bunch who point fingers and call the disordered bunch; nutty charismatics, and then we have other leaders trying to help... but they still have to wade through all the finger pointing name callers who are too busy putting leadership down who WANT to slap disordered Christians upside the head to fix them like Paul did and then, ON TOP of all this, we have some who are too righteous to even think a disordered Christian is a Christian at all! THEY are too busy calling a Christian who isn't discipled... NOT a Christian at all, EVEN THOUGH we have Paul calling the disobedient Corinthians... Christians who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints.

[Colight]

Today, all we seem to have is a bunch of leaders who ALLOW disorder,

I will agree...
That is the definition of the American Church.
It is also why the USA is facing judgement from the supreme court of heaven.
Its Christians need to be whooped into shape

[Slug1]

Its Christians need to be whooped into shape

While God judges, who are the people He's using to bring both "whooping" and correction to those in need of a slap beside the head?

Those He is using... still have to wade through those who are allowing disorder, who are finger pointing, those who are complaining, those who are labeling, and those who think themselves as so righteous, any other Christian who is like the Corinthians... are not a Christian at all.

If we "get" one thing from this thread as we look passed the supernatural false signs/wonder (empowered by satan), as we look passed the fake false signs/wonders (empowered by man/emotion/attitude), as we get passed those who are against both supernatural falseness or fake falseness BUT ONLY complain and finger point... God needs leaders who will be bold enough to SLAP side the head BOTH those who are false or complaining/finger-pointing.

Thus the reason I always ask... are leaders willing to SEE these problems today, the same as Paul looked at the Corinthians and "SAW" a bunch of Christians in need of discipleship and did something about it?

Many Christians and many Christians who are in leadership today, "look" BUT DON'T see... they "look" at a bunch of "charismatics", they look at those who are sinning and see "sinners".

Paul looked and saw a bunch of Christians (1 Cor 1:2), NOT a bunch of charismatics that he labeled abusive (doing nothing but labeling and complaining about them), or doing many sinful things and called sinners... he SAW Christians who are to BE saints and then without labeling them, without judging them NOT Christians... he began to slap them side the head!!!

[zone]

Today, all we seem to have is a bunch of leaders who ALLOW disorder, all we seem to have is another bunch who point fingers and call the disordered bunch; nutty charismatics.

i guess that just goes with the territory.

those who consider the neomontanists outside christian orthodoxy (both in doctrine and practice) base their assessments on: scrutiny/testing according to Biblical instructions; historical research; personal observation; former member testimonies; origins and teachings.

".....Pentecostalism, like its precursor, the Holiness movement (based on the belief that a second work of grace following conversion would “sanctify” Christians and remove the desire to sin), fulfilled these needs for churchgoers and nonchurchgoers alike. Moreover, Pentecostal churches, though open to all levels of society, spoke to the special needs of the disaffected.

Notwithstanding the charismatic outbursts in some 19th-century Protestant churches, the watershed of contemporary Pentecostalism came in the early 20th century at Bethel Bible College, a small religious school in Topeka, Kansas. The college’s director, Charles Fox Parham, one of many ministers who was influenced by the Holiness movement, believed that the complacent, worldly, and coldly formalistic church needed to be revived by another outpouring of the Holy Spirit. He instructed his students—many of whom already were ministers—to pray, fast, study the Scriptures, and, like the Apostles, await the blessings of the Holy Spirit.

On January 1, 1901, Agnes Oznam became the first of Parham’s students to speak in an unknown tongue. Others soon had the same experience, and Parham claimed that glossolalia was the “initial evidence” that one had been truly baptized with the Holy Spirit. Parham and his students understood these recurrences of Pentecost prophetically, interpreting them as signs of the imminence of the last days, or Endtime. Imbued with this sense of urgency, they set out on an evangelical mission.

Their initial efforts were unsuccessful, and the movement nearly collapsed as it encountered disbelief and ridicule. In 1903 its fortunes were revived when Parham returned to the practice of faith healing. Borrowed from several Holiness churches, notably the Christian and Missionary Alliance, faith healing became a hallmark of Pentecostalism. Parham was the first in a long line of Pentecostal evangelists (Mary B. Woodworth-Etter, Charles Price, Aimee Semple McPherson, and, more recently Oral Roberts, Kathryn Kuhlman, and Benny Hinn) who taught that Christ’s atonement provides deliverance from sickness and is, therefore, the privilege of all who have the requisite faith. Attracting new converts, the movement enjoyed success in the American South and Southwest, especially in Texas, Alabama, and Florida. In Texas alone, 25,000 people had embraced the Pentecostal faith by 1905, according to Parham. Kansas and Missouri also became hotbeds for Pentecostalism...."
britannica.com

to each their own, though.

[Slug1]

i guess that just goes with the territory.

those who consider the neomontanists outside christian orthodoxy (both in doctrine and practice) base their assessments on: scrutiny/testing according to Biblical instructions; historical research; personal observation; former member testimonies; origins and teachings.

".....Pentecostalism, like its precursor, the Holiness movement (based on the belief that a second work of grace following conversion would “sanctify” Christians and remove the desire to sin), fulfilled these needs for churchgoers and nonchurchgoers alike. Moreover, Pentecostal churches, though open to all levels of society, spoke to the special needs of the disaffected.

Notwithstanding the charismatic outbursts in some 19th-century Protestant churches, the watershed of contemporary Pentecostalism came in the early 20th century at Bethel Bible College, a small religious school in Topeka, Kansas. The college’s director, Charles Fox Parham, one of many ministers who was influenced by the Holiness movement, believed that the complacent, worldly, and coldly formalistic church needed to be revived by another outpouring of the Holy Spirit. He instructed his students—many of whom already were ministers—to pray, fast, study the Scriptures, and, like the Apostles, await the blessings of the Holy Spirit.

On January 1, 1901, Agnes Oznam became the first of Parham’s students to speak in an unknown tongue. Others soon had the same experience, and Parham claimed that glossolalia was the “initial evidence” that one had been truly baptized with the Holy Spirit. Parham and his students understood these recurrences of Pentecost prophetically, interpreting them as signs of the imminence of the last days, or Endtime. Imbued with this sense of urgency, they set out on an evangelical mission.

Their initial efforts were unsuccessful, and the movement nearly collapsed as it encountered disbelief and ridicule. In 1903 its fortunes were revived when Parham returned to the practice of faith healing. Borrowed from several Holiness churches, notably the Christian and Missionary Alliance, faith healing became a hallmark of Pentecostalism. Parham was the first in a long line of Pentecostal evangelists (Mary B. Woodworth-Etter, Charles Price, Aimee Semple McPherson, and, more recently Oral Roberts, Kathryn Kuhlman, and Benny Hinn) who taught that Christ’s atonement provides deliverance from sickness and is, therefore, the privilege of all who have the requisite faith. Attracting new converts, the movement enjoyed success in the American South and Southwest, especially in Texas, Alabama, and Florida. In Texas alone, 25,000 people had embraced the Pentecostal faith by 1905, according to Parham. Kansas and Missouri also became hotbeds for Pentecostalism...."
britannica.com

to each their own, though.

Instead of complaining about the past... how is God gonna use you for future correction of those in need of correction?

[zone]

Those He is using... still have to wade through those who are allowing disorder, who are finger pointing, those who are complaining, those who are labeling, and those who think themselves as so righteous, any other Christian who is like the Corinthians... are not a Christian at all.

If we "get" one thing from this thread as we look passed the supernatural false signs/wonder (empowered by satan), as we look passed the fake false signs/wonders (empowered by man/emotion/attitude), as we get passed those who are against both supernatural falseness or fake falseness BUT ONLY complain and finger point... God needs leaders who will be bold enough to SLAP side the head BOTH those who are false or complaining/finger-pointing.

Thus the reason I always ask... are leaders willing to SEE these problems today, the same as Paul looked at the Corinthians and "SAW" a bunch of Christians in need of discipleship and did something about it?

Many Christians and many Christians who are in leadership today, "look" BUT DON'T see... they "look" at a bunch of "charismatics", they look at those who are sinning and see "sinners".

Paul looked and saw a bunch of Christians (1 Cor 1:2), NOT a bunch of charismatics that he labeled abusive (doing nothing but labeling and complaining about them), or doing many sinful things and called sinners... he SAW Christians who are to BE saints and then without labeling them, without judging them NOT Christians... he began to slap them side the head!!!

first of all....your hypothetical leaders have no place slapping your hypothetical critics and 'complainers' and 'finger-pointers' of the pentecostal movement upside the head.

second: "as we look passed the supernatural false signs/wonder (empowered by satan), as we look passed the fake false signs/wonders (empowered by man/emotion/attitude)" - look past? no. no "looking past".

if you want the "complainers and finger-pointers" to be silenced, intelligently explain the difference and how Pentecostal and non-pentecostal people are supposed to know the difference. not LOOK PAST it all.

elsewhere you said we could tell the difference by "using the 'gifts' of discernment/knowledge/prophecy" and common sense.

which is sad and telling in that non pentecostals reject the modern display of what is called prophecy etc....why would they "use" what they believe to be false to determine the true?

the order is reversed. i reject it on the grounds its unBiblical - i use THE WORD, discernment and common sense, and receive confirmation by the Spirit of truth that Pentecostalism is error.

you keep comparing today's 'pentecostalism' with 1st Century Pentecostal miracles (as if they were one and the same) - so i put your comment back into your court:

"Thus the reason I always ask... are leaders willing to SEE these problems today"

are they?



"WHY I LEFT THE PENTECOSTAL CHURCH"

...It was the first Thursday night of October, 1984, at the age of 42 when I realized that all that I had been teaching for 18 years as a "Pentecostal" had been "false doctrine" and that I was like the "blind leading the blind." That Thursday night of October, 1984 changed my life, my thinking, and my understanding of the "Word of God." I was invited to a "Gospel Meeting" at the Sandstone Drive Church of Christ, Little Rock, AR ... (I had never been to a Lord's church in my life.) Chris Bullock, of Kansas City, MO was to be the speaker. I consented to go with the attitude that I would be able to shed some light on his teaching and thus convince others of their wrong. Something happened: what was preached was what I had secretly believed all my adult life ... One did not have to come to an "altar", cry out, beg and plead for mercy to receive forgiveness ... one did not have to come again to the "altar" to "seek for the infilling of the Holy Spirit", which was promised to believers, one did not have to "utter" confusion in an attempt to show one has the gift of "speaking in tongues."

All one had to do was hear the simple word of truth, believe it, confess Christ as the Son of God, repent of ones sins, and be baptized into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for remission of sins. The Lord not only forgives completely but adds one to the church. This I did in obedience the following Sunday evening ... I became a "born again Christian."...

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19593217...ecostal-Church

...
non- pentecostal/charismatics don't consider themselves to be "so righteous".
its the pentecostals and Holiness groups that have invented the 2 tiered system of "spirit-filled vs carnal...those who 'walk in the Spirit" vs carnal.

they just don't understand the Book of Romans, and they won't listen to reason.

after all - if cessationists 'don't trust God for a move in their lives' - according to pentecostal practice or don't accept any claim made (even under threat of eternal damnation for blasphemy)...that means they are hopelessly mired in carnality and apathy - right? and apparently have nothing better to do than complain and finger-point.

[Watchman]

Wow, lotsa ground has been covered since I had to leave yesterday. Testing the spirits was mentioned. We are told how to do this.

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Consequently, those who say the manifestations of the Spirit today are empowered by Satan, without having first tested the Spirit (as above), are leveling a potentially blasphemous charge without even having the reverence for God to test first.

Another thing I've noticed is the use of labels. I understand they can be helpful to denote the differing beliefs of folks; however, they can also be divisive. Conservative, charismatic, evangelical, continuationist, cessationist, literalist, etc., can be used as epithets and can be used to place others in a bad light. This is not how brothers and sisters in Christ treat each other, and God is not glorified when we mistreat His family.

The last thing is this: the workings of the Holy Spirit can ONLY be manifest via faith. Faith and the supernatural are two sides of the same coin. Submitting to the manifestation of the Spirit requires faith. It is NOT walking by sight. Paul was speaking of believing that we have an eternal building with God in the heavens when he commented that we walk by faith...not speaking about the workings of the Holy Spirit, ie gifts, signs, etc. It takes much faith to be used to heal someone. It takes much faith to prophesy to someone, especially if what you're given to say is not easy to hear.

Y'all have a blessed day. I hafta go exercise my chainsaw. Apparently I don't have enough faith to simply command all those dead limbs on the trees outside to be gone.

W

[zone]

concerning 'tongues'

could those who practice this explain about the "2 fillings/baptisms of the Holy Spirit" please?
is this about right? (from John Piper: How to Receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit)

1. What Is Receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

One of the most widely used books in contemporary charismatic renewal is The Holy Spirit and You by Dennis and Rita Bennet, an Episcopal priest and his wife. On pp. 64f. the question is posed, "What if I don't speak in tongues? Can I receive the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues?" Answer:

"It comes with the package!" Speaking in tongues is not the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it is what happens when and as you are baptized in the Spirit and it becomes an important resource to help you continue, as Paul says, to . . . "keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit". You don't have to speak in tongues in order to be saved. You don't have to speak in tongues in order to have the Holy Spirit in you. You don't have to speak in tongues to have times of feeling filled with the Holy Spirit, but if you want the free and full outpouring that is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, you must expect it to happen as in Scripture . . . If you want to understand the New Testament you need the same experience that all its writers had.

On p. 20 they sum up the classical two-stage Pentecostal teaching:

The first experience of the Christian life, salvation, is the incoming of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ, to give us new life, God's life, eternal life. The second experience, is the receiving, or making welcome of the Holy Spirit, so that Jesus can cause Him to pour out this new life from our spirits, to baptize our souls and bodies and then our world around, with his refreshing and renewing power. (See p. 275.)

They call this "the scriptural pattern of the 'doctrine of baptisms'."....

~

"If you want to understand the New Testament you need the same experience that all its writers had."

huh??

[zone]

The last thing is this: the workings of the Holy Spirit can ONLY be manifest via faith.

FALSE.
completely and totally false. this kind of dogmatic remark is why the visible church is ridiculed, and why faith is shipwrecked.

God is dependent on YOU?

so if a Pentecostal with the gift of healing lays on hands, prays and believes for healing for another with cancer and the patient dies - who's fault is it? not enough faith?

please provide undeniable documentation that a faith-filled Spirit-filled Penetcostal or Charismatic has raised anyone from the dead, made the blind see or instantaneously and permanently cured a paralytic.
not stories or anecdotes - this would make world headlines and be confirmed by medical and other professionals.
please provide ONE SHRED of evidence, a name, ANYTHING.

let's see the evidence.

[zone]

It takes much faith to prophesy to someone, especially if what you're given to say is not easy to hear.

tell us about this.
"prophesying" to someone.

where does it say that's what we ought to expect to see.

exactly what does one "prophesy" to the person? is it about the Plan of God as revealed in scripture? then that "prophet" is authoritative and had better call a council and add to canon.

if its some personal tip about that person's personal life....well....tell me some examples of God telling one person to tell another person something...exactly what does God say? and how does he say it? audibly? a little voice heard as He 'speaks to/lays it on heart" to tell you this, that and the other?

do any of these messegaes have anything at all to do what's already been revealed in scripture?

please give me the name of a prophet you know. if they are legit, they won't mind. i'm a christian and i want to "test the spirits" as you admitted was required, and i want to do it Biblically, as a Berean.

[Revmitchell]

So are all the scriptures about tongues in chapters 12-14 to be ignored then?

Chapter 14 is about a SPECIFIC order in which tongues is to be spoken. The Corinthians were not doing this. When there is NO interpretation, the speaker of tongues is to speak softly to themselves and not LOUDLY (abuse).

Clearly, there are MANY abuses that they were doing concerning the usage of "kinds of tongues" and Paul fixed their abuse.

Let me make it clear what abuse is. Abuse of gifts is acting when God is not acting and then calling it an action of God and His gifts.

[Colight]

If we "get" one thing from this thread as we look passed the supernatural false signs/wonder (empowered by satan), as we look passed the fake false signs/wonders (empowered by man/emotion/attitude), as we get passed those who are against both supernatural falseness or fake falseness BUT ONLY complain and finger point... God needs leaders who will be bold enough to SLAP side the head BOTH those who are false or complaining/finger-pointing.

Which is why we are to focus on DOCTRINE and CHRIST.. not the super natural..
If ones focus was on doctrine then you would be posting that rather than how Christians should stop finger pointing.

Thus the reason I always ask... are leaders willing to SEE these problems today, the same as Paul looked at the Corinthians and "SAW" a bunch of Christians in need of discipleship and did something about it?

What are they supposed to do?
Force those of other views?

I would never submit to a female Bishop in Church.
I would never stay around to watch a bunch of arrogant women hoot it up in tongues in church.

Therefore each man must work out their own salvation to its maturity.

Many Christians and many Christians who are in leadership today, "look" BUT DON'T see... they "look" at a bunch of "charismatics", they look at those who are sinning and see "sinners".

Paul looked and saw a bunch of Christians (1 Cor 1:2), NOT a bunch of charismatics that he labeled abusive (doing nothing but labeling and complaining about them), or doing many sinful things and called sinners... he SAW Christians who are to BE saints and then without labeling them, without judging them NOT Christians... he began to slap them side the head!!!

Female Bishops = false doctrine
Tongues today = False doctrine
Relying on some emotional spirit rather than doctrine = false doctrine.

Paul would have a lot to say to those Christians who follow such things, and it would not be pleasant, they would probably just vibrate and call Paul unchristian.
They would say he is ...."unpleasant"..."disruptive, judgmental, unedifying, and sarcastic." because he would not accept their false doctrine. (Women speaking in church 5 - 1 Timothy 2 post #142)

Paul would focus on truth.. not emotion
He would focus on doctrine.. not mans revelation.

[Colight]

It takes much faith to prophesy to someone, especially if what you're given to say is not easy to hear.)

I guess you have not been much around nagging women.
They prophesy all the time, usually about how you will fail and your genetic roots being in question. Really hard stuff to listen too.
So if a bunch of naggin women in sin of arrogance can do it..my guess it it really is not that hard to do in a church with a supportive crowd.