If I've been babtized by the Holy Spirit, why cant I speak in tongues?

[Watchman]

We don't need any new revelations, but I don't know that prophecy only refers to revelation. Could a word of truth that is spoken that provides illumination to a heart or hearts regarding God's already revealed truth be prophecy as well.

Suppose God wants to speak a certain message to an individual or a group, and the message is not adding to scriptures in any way. If someone were to have that message impressed on their heart by the Holy Spirit, and if they speak that message, would that not be a type of prophesying. And we see that in this use, prophecy would be very edifying wouldnt it? What a blessing to be priviledged to speak a word of edification straight from the heart of God to the ears of another. I would desire this gift far above any other gift, for the purpose of all gifts is to glorify God and to edify one another.

Often when I see people exercising the gift that they refer to as prophecy, they are speaking mostly scriptures and scriptural truths that have been laid on their heart by the Holy Spirit, not giving new revelations or predicting the future.

The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

Colight knows these things, G4M...he just chooses to lean to his own understanding. He is beyond help at this time.

[Colight]

Suppose God wants to speak a certain message to an individual or a group, and the message is not adding to scriptures in any way. If someone were to have that message impressed on their heart by the Holy Spirit, and if they speak that message, would that not be a type of prophesying. And we see that in this use, prophecy would be very edifying wouldnt it?

IT really would not edify.
For it would be looking to signs or wonders rather than solid doctrine.
It would be adding confusion and taking the focus off Christ.

It would be giving some one else a excuse to lead the pastors flock, one who is not a pastor nor has that gift.
The spirit speaks thru the word, thru truth, not thru impressing on some one to speak out in a church where they should be silent.
We are to learn doctrine and THINK it, just as Christ did while on the cross.

Often when I see people exercising the gift that they refer to as prophecy, they are speaking mostly scriptures and scriptural truths that have been laid on their heart by the Holy Spirit, not giving new revelations or predicting the future.

that is not a Gift of any sort.. they are just stating their mind.

And where are they doing this?
IF in the Church service.. then they are out of line.. and the pastor is perhaps a weak sister.
This would be considered rude to the rest of those who are there to hear the pastor.

I do not go to church to hear what some unlearned person thinks.
I am there to learn from the pastor who has spent years or even decades in study.

[Colight]

Colight knows these things, G4M...he just chooses to lean to his own understanding. He is beyond help at this time.

That attack is
Kinda out of line
Dont you think?

[Watchman]

No sir, it is the truth...not an attack of any sort.

[Colight]

I suppose my question would be do you believe Reveltions has completely occured, in other words has the prophecy of Revelation been completed?

If your answer is no, then can you tell me what defines a saint? In other words what does one recieve when they become a saint? We all recieve it and according to God cannot be a saint unless we have recieved it...hint...it is called "the Helper"

Now, why would it be called the Helper if it wasnt given to us for some form of help? It's obvious purpose is for helping in which ever regards we require help with.

Your set up is ambiguous and leading..not sure how it ties things together.

So if I am to understand as you understand by saying all of that stuff ended a long time ago when scripture was written, then I must also understand that well quite franctly you and ever other person who claims to be christian is in fact a lying sac of rock, because you will return to a mere form of dust when you die and have no hope of anything. Why? becuse you are simply saying we dont need the Holy Spirit, the Helper, when in fact having the Holy Spirit is a gift AND requirement of salvation, the Holy spirit is given to every saint in various forms for various reason, (a hand cannot be a foot and a foot cannot be a hand, let it be understood) but not one saint does not have the Helper and not one dead person can have it.

We have the complete canon of scripture..
There was temporary gifts given to lead to its completion and when it was done. These gifts ceased.

1 Cor 13
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

The complete refers to the scripture of the Church.
The mystery doctrine is complete. And we have it in our hands.
This is something Paul and others did not have in that days..
The gifts showed only shadows, the Bible shows it in its complete light.

You need to re-evaluate the many scriptures specifically dealing with the Holy Ghost and start asking questions in regards to your own personal understandings because for someone who deems scripture as the absolute final, your a babe who doesnt understand.

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The bible and a pastor to teach it ...we are complete in what we need to advance to maturity in our spiritual life.
We get distracted when we add to such a simple set up
When God says we can be perfect thru what we learn in scripture,.. I will believe him.

Now im not saying that to knock you down, spite you or have anyone else who reads this feel good that i wrote what i wrote for any of those reasons i listed (in fact if that comes into any of your thoughts, the Lord rebuke you) I'm hoping you get a little more serious friend about how you understand the Lord and scriptures, that you will question your understanding, your thought pattern. Take care, I seek a fire be lit.

We are not to worship or seek the spirit, it is in us at salvation. yes
We are to stay in fellowship with Christ to allow the spirit to teach.
Our focus is to be on Christ..

[Colight]

No sir, it is the truth...not an attack of any sort.

We are not to engage in personal attacks here.
Most all points I have made are enforced by other posters on this board, therefore how can I be leaning to my own understanding when they come to the same conclusions.
I would suggest you cease the direct attack on me, the mods here will not endure such things.

attack my doctrine.. fine..
Attack me.. that is out of line.

[glad4mercy]

For it would be looking to signs or wonders rather than solid doctrine.

Nothing in my post suggested anything about signs and wonders. Hearing God's Word is not looking to signs and wonders.

It would be adding confusion and taking the focus off Christ.

Not any more than a preacher preaching or a teacher teaching takes the focus off of Christ. A true preacher magnifies Christ, a true teacher magnifies Christ, any gift that is used for Christ is used to magnify Christ.

And where are they doing this?

It could be done anywhere, not just in church.

IF in the Church service.. then they are out of line.. and the pastor is perhaps a weak sister.

Some churches allow for opportunities for individuals to speak, like during worship times. Other churches have special services where the entire service is devoted to praise, worship, and allowing the Spirit to do whatever He pleases. In these services, there is no set structure and no sermon, just meet, begin to pray and sing and worship together, and provide opportunities for people to give testimonies, share something on their heart, etc. Sometimes something a person says during these times is used by God to speak directly to a persons heart.

I do not go to church to hear what some unlearned person thinks.

So you don't agree with testimonials either?

I am there to learn from the pastor who has spent years or even decades in study.

Like I said, sharing a word from the Lord does not only happen in church. We are all called to speak for the Lord, not just professional ministers. We are all called to share the word of the Gospel.

I have been studying the Bible for twenty four years, and I have a Bible college degree. Yet I was out in the streets bringing the name of Jesus to others, and I was speaking in churches long before I got a degree, and I remember many times when I would begin to talk, and the Holy Spirit would just completely take over. Anyone who seeks to be filled by God's Spirit, and spends time in prayer and the Word can be used mightily. You don't need a degree to be used by God. Speak from the heart, and if Christ is enthroned there, and if you are a lover of His Word, He will use you.

[warfrog]

Your set up is ambiguous and leading..not sure how it ties things together.


We have the complete canon of scripture..
There was temporary gifts given to lead to its completion and when it was done. These gifts ceased.

1 Cor 13
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

The complete refers to the scripture of the Church.
The mystery doctrine is complete. And we have it in our hands.
This is something Paul and others did not have in that days..
The gifts showed only shadows, the Bible shows it in its complete light.

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The bible and a pastor to teach it we are complete in what I need to advance to maturity my spiritual life.

When God says we can be perfect thru what we learn in scripture,.. I will believe him.


We are not to worship or seek the spirit, it is in us at salvation. yes
We are to stay in fellowship with Christ to allow the spirit to teach.
Our focus is to be on Christ..

My set up? You have simply stated that there is no need for the Spirit, that prophecy and understanding and healings and tongues and every other help given by the Helper is done, been sealed up with the completion of the writing of scriptures.

Those very scriptures you hold onto quite dramatically describes a huge difference to what you say, that in fact the Holy Spirit is a requirement as it is given, that noone can not have it and be saved since everyone saved has it, be it in whatever various degree it is given to each and every person differently. (a hand cannot be a foot and a foot cannot be a hand, yet together they are peices towrds the completion of the body)

Do you not see how silly what you say is in light of the very scriptures you are defending so passionately?

That is why i said what i said, that you would seek, but you refuse for your own pride as evident by your quick reply and lack of even heeding advice if even by caution, afterall what i said was that YOU would seek the various Holy Spirit scriptures.

So please friend, look at the Holy Spirit scriptures, what the Holy Spirit is, why it is given, why it is called by the name "the Helper" It contradicts your very thought pattern.

[Colight]

Some churches allow for opportunities for individuals to speak, like during worship times. Other churches have special services where the entire service is devoted to praise, worship, and allowing the Spirit to do whatever He pleases. In these services, there is no set structure and no sermon, just meet, begin to pray and sing and worship together, and provide opportunities for people to give testimonies, share something on their heart, etc. Sometimes something a person says during these times is used by God to speak directly to a persons heart.

Yeah I know.
There is just some things about this I find troubling in the pecking order.
They have been used many times to counter the pastor if he made some point of doctrine that caused some people to bristle.

So you don't agree with testimonials either?

Since most are embellished to the point of legend, I find them to be a waste of time..
Maybe that is just my experiences with them. I would rather be in bible class.

Like I said, sharing a word from the Lord does not only happen in church. We are all called to speak for the Lord, not just professional ministers. We are all called to share the word of the Gospel.

I have been studying the Bible for twenty four years, I have a BA in Bible/Christian ministry, and I have been teaching for more than 20 years. Yet I was out in the streets bringing the name of Jesus to everyone I met long before I got a degree, and I remember many times when I would begin to talk to someone about Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would just completely take over. You don't need a degree to be used by God.

But you do need the basics of solid doctrine to handle questions you may get...
Before you send a solder to battle, they need basic training so the can be effective.
Rather than just a confusing casualty.

[glad4mercy]

Yeah I know.
There is just some things about this I find troubling in the pecking order.
They have been used many times to counter the pastor if he made some point of doctrine that caused some people to bristle.

It is possible that that may have happened in some churches, but it does not happen in my church.

I would rather be in bible class

Actually, I prefer a Bible study myself, but sharing a testimony or a word is good for both the speaker and the hearer.

But you do need the basics of solid doctrine to handle questions you may get...
Before you send a solder to battle, they need basic training so the can be effective.
Rather than just a confusing casualty.

The role of pastors/teachers is actually to equip believers so that every believer can be a trained soldier. Even more important, the Bible and the Holy Spirit give us all the tools we really need. Basic training in Christian service does not take many years or decades. We need to be instructed and equipped, but the real instruction comes when we actually go out and do it. You'd be surprised what the Spirit can accomplish through unlettered men and women. A good course of study in a Christian university is a good tool to sharpen the axe, but it is not what equips or qualifies us.

If someone asks me a question I can't answer, I am honest and tell them so. You don't have to be a know it all to be used by Christ. It's the Spirit's job to convince and convict, not ours. It is the Spirit's power that empowers us. It is by the Spirit that the praise of God is perfected in the mouths of babes.

God can use a Spirit filled babe more than a "spiritual father" who depends more on his knowledge than the power of the Spirit. Of course, the ideal would be to have both, but you never become a true spiritual father, ( ie a mature Christian), sitting around for years or decades waiting to be educated enough before you open your mouth for God.

[Colight]

My set up? You have simply stated that there is no need for the Spirit, that prophecy and understanding and healings and tongues and every other help given by the Helper is done, been sealed up with the completion of the writing of scriptures.

With the completed sciptures.. why would we need them?

Those very scriptures you hold onto quite dramatically describes a huge difference to what you say, that in fact the Holy Spirit is a requirement as it is given, that noone can not have it and be saved since everyone saved has it, be it in whatever various degree it is given to each and every person differently. (a hand cannot be a foot and a foot cannot be a hand, yet together they are peices towrds the completion of the body) .

There are plenty of Gifts still active today.

Do you not see how silly what you say is in light of the very scriptures you are defending so passionately?

Not really, when those same scriptures stated certain ones would end.. and they did.

That is why i said what i said, that you would seek, but you refuse for your own pride as evident by your quick reply and lack of even heeding advice if even by caution, afterall what i said was that YOU would seek the various Holy Spirit scriptures.

Out of line..
I have not made personal attack on you.

So please friend, look at the Holy Spirit scriptures, what the Holy Spirit is, why it is given, why it is called by the name "the Helper" It contradicts your very thought pattern.

Even satan can quote scriptures..
Therefore we are to know doctrines.

The Doctrine states, there was several temp gifts to hold the Church over till the scriptures dealing with the church was complete.
When that was done, those gifts ended.

[Colight]

The role of pastors/teachers is actually to equip believers so that every believer can be a trained soldier. And basic training in Christian service does not take many years or decades. You are instructed and equipped, but the real instruction comes when you actually go out and do it.

If someone asks me a question I can't answer, I am honest and tell them so. You don't have to be a know it all to be used by Christ. It's the Spirit's job to convince and convict, not ours.

I think we are pretty much on the same page..
Perhaps a touch of a different flavor, but pretty much the same.

[warfrog]

With the completed sciptures.. why would we need them?



There are plenty of Gifts still active today.


Not really, when those same scriptures stated certain ones would end.. and they did.

Out of line..
I have not made personal attack on you.


Even satan can quote scriptures..
Therefore we are to know doctrines.

The Doctrine states, there was several temp gifts to hold the Church over till the scriptures dealing with the church was complete.
When that was done, those gifts ended.

Why would we need them? Because you need the Holy Spirit which is a helper which its act of helping is many of the very things you ask why we need. If we didnt need the Holy Spirit we wouldnt need help and the Holy Spirit wouldnt be required to be called a saint, it wouldnt be given and scriptures wouldnt say that every saint has it.

Ok now your confusing me, your saying there are plenty of gifts still today..so your saying specific gifts no longer exist? I dont understand what your saying, you say gifts arnt needed now yo say gifts still do exist.

Well on that your just plain wrong, if help wasnt needed, if the Holy Spirit wasnt needed then scripture wouldnt say completely otherwise. No saint is a saint without the Holy Spirit, also known as the Helper.

Not out of line, truth. You did exactly what i wrote, there is no way you could have possibly did what i suggested (reveiwing the various Holy Spirit scriptures) prior to answering me, time simply would not have allowed it, it is as was said.

I suggested you look at the scriptures, not once did i post any, you hold the action available, I dont care if Satan can qoute scripture, can you read it? That has nothing to do with Satan or anything, all i did was ask that YOU check them out.
Would you like me to post some of them?

The gifts will end when we all change in the twinkling of an eye. Not before then.

[glad4mercy]

I think we are pretty much on the same page..
Perhaps a touch of a different flavor, but pretty much the same.

I havent read all of your posts, but perhaps our disagreement on whether prophecy is an operative gift or not is due to the fact that we define the word differently. I agree with you that the canon of scripture is complete, and we dare not add to it by any prophecy, message, word, or utterance. On this we agree.

I condition my earlier statements regarding prophecy with this final statement...

I can only stand by the statement "the gift prophecy is operative" if the definition I gave is correct. If my definition of prophecy is incorrect, than I would have to determine the correct meaning before I could give a confident answer.

[Slug1]

I havent read all of your posts, but perhaps our disagreement on whether prophecy is an operative gift or not is due to the fact that we define the word differently. I agree with you that the canon of scripture is complete, and we dare not add to it by any prophecy, message, word, or utterance. On this we agree.

Hooah and AMEN!