If I've been babtized by the Holy Spirit, why cant I speak in tongues?

[zone]

Even the Bible itself tells us what it provides:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

AMEN!.......
yup

[Colight]

Sooo, do doctrines actually mature us? Or is it the application of said doctrines in our lives by the Holy Spirit that matures us? Or is this yet another of my false dilemmas?

We are to abide by and learn the thinking
Of Christ..

That thinking is contained with in the doctrine that are bought out thru the study of scripture.
the HS is only a teacher, he is not a puppet master that pulls our strings.
He helps us to understand these doctrines with in our carnal state.

We can choose to believe or not believe these truths that the spirit shows us.

From the looks around here there seems to be a lot of the latter,rather than former.

[glad4mercy]

i agree.

the NAR is the New Apostolic Reformation (sometimes called Restoration)

you can read easily on a single page here:

The Roots and Fruits of the New Apostolic Reformation
by Bob DeWaay

http://www.ukapologetics.net/10/1NAR.htm
original source here:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.htm

and there are many other sources to benefit from.

the subject should eventually be covered (by default) here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...39#post2842339

wiki:

The New Apostolic Reformation is a movement in Protestant Christianity largely associated with the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. The basic thesis asserts that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of Prophet and Apostle.

Thanks for the info. I will be sure to read what Mr. Dewaay says as I have liked what little I have heard from him.

[Saved7]

Which is covered in scripture..the hand book of the Christian life.

YOu are correct it is covered in the scripture. The fact that it is a gift from God Himself is also covered in scripture. Although, I suppose that's neither here nor there to you, so let me just point to what you said next.

Therefore why would a prophet need to come stomping in on the feet of some pastor?

This seems to be of great concern to you. Why is that? Why do you view it as stomping on the pastors feet? And while all the scriptures are there for our use to keep us on the right path, I'm sure even you can admit that we do not always stay on the right path. In fact, even pastors can stray from the right path, I've seen it happen a few times and it's a sad day when that happens. However, if the pastor sees it as stomping on his feet, then I dare say that pastor is more concerned with his own glory than with glorifying God. If a pastor doesn't want to allow a Word from the Lord to help get his congregation back on track when they need it, then where is his heart at? Though, usually I will say the FEW encounters that I've had with REAL prophets/prophetesses, were not done from the pulpit, but in fact were done privately as it was a word specifically for me or for my friend who I just happened to be with when it happened. I will admit though that the VAST majority I have encountered are indeed false prophets/prophetesses. Do not think that men do not seek glory for themselves and power for themselves, just as these women who prophesy falsely do. But that still doesn't mean that ALL are false.

The reason God does it the way that He does through prophets, I do not know, but I can say this, sometimes people need it and have stopped listening to their pastor. Sometimes those prophets come and back up the pastor, or just have something different to say when it is in a public setting. Any good shepheard knows that sometimes they need a little back up because his congregation has become dull of hearing him....

God being all powerful can not be hindered by any thing man does.

God is also a gentleman, which is why Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done".

Why would one wish to glorify man and then claim to those who do not partake in that glorification as hindering God.

I'm sorry, I am not following this comment, maybe you need some commas? Or rewording? I honestly don't follow this comment?

I do not think it is a few..
look at how much resistance there is for women to keep silent in Church their lust for power is amazing.

What I find amazing here is your complete hatred and mistrust for women. Your disdain towards women is flabbergasting.

There is great power lust for people who wish to teach over their pastor and claim they are using some gift.
The desire for power is ripe with in the Christian church.. and many of these pastors are to much of a weak sister to cast these distractions from their flocks.

I agree with you. However, the problem is because the focus of many (men included) is SELF. When in fact the focus should be God. Have you ever noticed how people respond when they hear terms and phrases like "he/she is VERY ANOINTED" or "he/she is a powerful man/woman of God" or "God is using her/him mightly". Pay attention, these catch phrases stir something up in people in such a way that it causes them to want to hear such things said about themselves. It stirs up envy, and envy is rooted in pride, a desire to be glorified. That's where the real problem is, it's not women, it's not weak pastors, it's pride, simple fleshly pride. The Church as a whole has GOT TO get over self if God is ever going to be glorified in her. I mean the Church when I say her, since that's how God refers to the Church as female, so you don't think I was talking about women speaking.

[zone]

Thanks for the info. I will be sure to read what Mr. Dewaay says as I have liked what little I have heard from him.

you're very welcome.
Bob and i disagree on eschatology.
but his teachings are sound and each radiocast is short and simple but profoundly enlightening and edifying.

here are 3 that pertain to recent discussions:
•Apostles and Prophets (8)
•Personal Words from God (2)
•Pietism (6)

here's a list of radio series titles (MP3s, the texts are also available).

Choose A Radio Series

•Apostles and Prophets (8)
•Binding and Loosing (3)
•The Blood Atonement (2)
•Church Growth Movement (4)
•Contending for the Faith (2)
•Curses (3)
•The Danger of Perpetual Infancy (2)
•The Discerning of Spirits (3)
•Divination, Mysticism, and Spiritual Formation (7)
•Emergent Delusion (22)
•False Spiritual Warfare Teachings (8)
•Free Will (2)
•God's Will (2)
•Gospel Preaching (5)
•Hebrews (52)
•Judging (2)
•Led by the Spirit (3)
•Means of Grace (3)
•Miscellaneous (17)
•Modern Evangelicalism (3)
•Personal Words from God (2)
•Pietism (6)
•Redefining Christianity (17)
•Romans (40)
•Running Against the Wind (16)
•Sanctification (2)
•Seeker Movement (5)
•Sufficiency of Christ (3)
•Theophostic Ministry/Healing of Memories (5)
•Unity and Care for the Flock (8)
•Show All (250)


i can't recommend this one strongly enough:

• Led by the Spirit (3)


http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php

...

ttyl.

[RLG]

If, as some say, we have the complete word of God in Bible form...perhaps they'd care to slip over to Jemand's thread and show us all which canon is correct?

They wont (challenge hint )... i already pointed out lost letters in that thread... so the Bible can't be "the perfect".

Interesting to observe and perhaps the origins of where our differences lie. Am I missing something here or do these two quoted posts infer that in both of your opinions, God's Word (the bible) is not complete ? Can we trust the bible entirely or can't we ? An answer in the negative would certainly explain the need (in your respective views) for modern day prophets wouldn't it ? Or so it would seem.

[Slug1]

Interesting to observe and perhaps the origins of where our differences lie. Am I missing something here or do these two quoted posts infer that in both of your opinions, God's Word (the bible) is not complete ? Can we trust the bible entirely or can't we ? An answer in the negative would certainly explain the need (in your respective views) for modern day prophets wouldn't it ? Or so it would seem.

Yes, the Bible is complete to accomplish what the Bible says it is to accomplish:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Modern day prophets isn't about new/additional/altered cannon scripture... modern day prophets is about edification of the Body of Christ in accordance TO scripture. Paul really made this clear when he discipled the Body of Christ while he wrote to the Corinthians.

While the Bible is "complete" it can't be "the perfect" because man voted on what is in the cannon, what isn't in the cannon and some scriptures written... are lost. Thus not given opportunity to even be voted in or out.

[RLG]

[QUOTE=Slug1;2842481]Yes, the Bible is complete to accomplish what the Bible says it is to accomplish:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Modern day prophets isn't about cannon scripture...

Agreed ... it isn't.


modern day prophets is about edification of the Body of Christ in accordance TO scripture. Paul really made this clear when he discipled the Body of Christ while he wrote to the Corinthians.

Don't be angry with me Slug (and I'm not suggesting that you are ... jes' saying). Scripture (God's Word) is instructing us to pay heed to modern day prophets .... providing these prophets speak in accordance to what these very scriptures want to accomplish ? Can't scripture accomplish this on it's own merit ... without our help ?


While the Bible is "complete" it can't be "the perfect" because man voted on what is in the cannon, what isn't in the cannon and some scriptures written... are lost. Thus not given opportunity to even be voted in or out.

Trying to understand here. How can the bible (God's Word) be complete .... yet be imperfect simultaneously ? How can you say that the bible is "complete" and at the same time claim that some scriptures ...... "are lost" ?

[warfrog]

hi Slug.
are you claiming God spoke this directly to you, or that He spoke it directly to a prophet who then passed it on to you?

please show any examples in the New Testament where God the Father spoke directly to/through men and it is recorded for us First Person verbatim - the only places are when He speaks from heaven witnessing that Jesus is His Son in Whom He is well pleased.

How about scriptures?
May not be by verbal sound but it is still a recorded spoken language done through men.

[Watchman]

RLG,

I posted this earlier. Your thoughts?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Perhaps some need more encouragment, more building up, and/or more comfort that the path they're on is His path. That is one function of prophets. Prophets can confirm or deny for them whether they've heard the Lord. In fact, prophets are to equip saints to hear Him.

[Colight]

YOu are correct it is covered in the scripture. The fact that it is a gift from God Himself is also covered in scripture. Although, I suppose that's neither here nor there to you, so let me just point to what you said next.

It is a gift that ended, which is also covered in scripture.

This seems to be of great concern to you. Why is that? Why do you view it as stomping on the pastors feet? And while all the scriptures are there for our use to keep us on the right path, I'm sure even you can admit that we do not always stay on the right path. In fact, even pastors can stray from the right path, I've seen it happen a few times and it's a sad day when that happens. However, if the pastor sees it as stomping on his feet, then I dare say that pastor is more concerned with his own glory than with glorifying God.

It is that pastors flock assigned to him by God.
No man has any sort of right to try and lead anothers flock. even the Apostles recognized that fact and kept to their own flocks.

If a pastor doesn't want to allow a Word from the Lord to help get his congregation back on track when they need it, then where is his heart at?

His heart is about preserving them from out side influences.
To keep them from weird and heretical doctrines.
He has led them thus far, they are his.
If they do not wish to be in that flock they are of course free to leave, but while they are there it is his to lead.

Though, usually I will say the FEW encounters that I've had with REAL prophets/prophetesses, were not done from the pulpit, but in fact were done privately as it was a word specifically for me or for my friend who I just happened to be with when it happened. I will admit though that the VAST majority I have encountered are indeed false prophets/prophetesses. Do not think that men do not seek glory for themselves and power for themselves, just as these women who prophesy falsely do. But that still doesn't mean that ALL are false.

Today they are all false.
Even when they speak smooth words and creep into the homes.

The reason God does it the way that He does through prophets, I do not know,

Then go find out.
Before you counter me on a doctrinal point a least show me the respect to know what you are talking about.

but I can say this, sometimes people need it and have stopped listening to their pastor. Sometimes those prophets come and back up the pastor, or just have something different to say when it is in a public setting. Any good shepheard knows that sometimes they need a little back up because his congregation has become dull of hearing him....

Those who preach truth are never dull, people flock to them even when they wear camel skins in the wilderness.

Those who preach human view point are quite dull.
The fact people have stopped listening, is because there is nothing worth hearing.

God is also a gentleman, which is why Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done".

His will ... shall be done weather we pray for it or not.

I'm sorry, I am not following this comment, maybe you need some commas? Or rewording? I honestly don't follow this comment?

Why would one wish to glorify man... and then claim to those who do not partake in that glorification... as hindering God.

What I find amazing here is your complete hatred and mistrust for women. Your disdain towards women is flabbergasting.

No hate,
I just understand what they are... and they are not to be trusted to lead a church on spiritual matters.
Women in their proper role are amazing.
Women trying to be in a role they are not meant for.. are emotional tyrants.
As you are trying to be, when you state I hate women for that is emotional manipulation and dangerous... if ideas like that would be spread from a pulpit.

I agree with you. However, the problem is because the focus of many (men included) is SELF. When in fact the focus should be God. Have you ever noticed how people respond when they hear terms and phrases like "he/she is VERY ANOINTED" or "he/she is a powerful man/woman of God" or "God is using her/him mightly". Pay attention, these catch phrases stir something up in people in such a way that it causes them to want to hear such things said about themselves. It stirs up envy, and envy is rooted in pride, a desire to be glorified.

I avoid circles where such idle chatter as that occurs.

That's where the real problem is, it's not women, it's not weak pastors, it's pride, simple fleshly pride. The Church as a whole has GOT TO get over self if God is ever going to be glorified in her. I mean the Church when I say her, since that's how God refers to the Church as female, so you don't think I was talking about women speaking.

The church must focus on doctrine..the teaching of Christ, not gifts, not signs, not political correctness, not the crusade of the day.. ONLY Christ.
Until a church does that it is a causality in the spiritual battle that surrounds us.

[amazzin]

Please disagree respectfully like those of us who disagree with you RESECTFULLY

It is a gift that ended, which is also covered in scripture.




It is that pastors flock assigned to him by God.
No man has any sort of right to try and lead anothers flock. even the Apostles recognized that fact and kept to their own flocks.



His heart is about preserving them from out side influences.
To keep them from weird and heretical doctrines.
He has led them thus far, they are his.
If they do not wish to be in that flock they are of course free to leave, but while they are there it is his to lead.


Today they are all false.
Even when they speak smooth words and creep into the homes.

Then go find out.
Before you counter me on a doctrinal point a least show me the respect to know what you are talking about.


Those who preach truth are never dull, people flock to them even when they wear camel skins in the wilderness.

Those who preach human view point are quite dull.
The fact people have stopped listening, is because there is nothing worth hearing.



His will ... shall be done weather we pray for it or not.

Why would one wish to glorify man... and then claim to those who do not partake in that glorification... as hindering God.




No hate,
I just understand what they are... and they are not to be trusted to lead a church on spiritual matters.
Women in their proper role are amazing.
Women trying to be in a role they are not meant for.. are emotional tyrants.
As you are trying to be, when you state I hate women for that is emotional manipulation and dangerous... if ideas like that would be spread from a pulpit.




I avoid circles where such idle chatter as that occurs.


The church must focus on doctrine..the teaching of Christ, not gifts, not signs, not political correctness, not the crusade of the day.. ONLY Christ.
Until a church does that it is a causality in the spiritual battle that surrounds us.

[Colight]

Please disagree respectfully like those of us who disagree with you RESECTFULLY

Yeah.... being told I have a "complete" hatred of women is a very respectful disagreement...

[zone]

How about scriptures?
May not be by verbal sound but it is still a recorded spoken language done through men.

not sure what you mean exactly. the scriptures are the ONLY place i trust to see what God is saying. so i think we agree (?)


God spoke directly first person through OT prophets, and they always started with the formulas : "thus saith The LORD" etc....NO ONE in the NT does that. the closest we get is Paul saying:

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

He inspired the NT prophets (and we had them...its recorded - they received revelatory knowledge, etc), and the Apostles. the NT doctrines were being revealed still.

but aside from His speaking from heaven as testimony that Jesus is His Son, God the Father does not anywhere speak first-person through a prophet in the New Covenant portion of His Plan.

and nowhere does He tell us to expect a new foundation to be laid by a fresh round of last days prophets and apostles. that's a dangerous new movement invented by men and many sincere christians have been tricked. ist very serious indeed.

[zone]

It is a gift that ended, which is also covered in scripture.
It is that pastors flock assigned to him by God.
No man has any sort of right to try and lead anothers flock. even the Apostles recognized that fact and kept to their own flocks.

His heart is about preserving them from out side influences.
To keep them from weird and heretical doctrines.
He has led them thus far, they are his.
If they do not wish to be in that flock they are of course free to leave, but while they are there it is his to lead.

Today they are all false.
Even when they speak smooth words and creep into the homes.

Then go find out.
Before you counter me on a doctrinal point a least show me the respect to know what you are talking about.

Those who preach truth are never dull, people flock to them even when they wear camel skins in the wilderness.

Those who preach human view point are quite dull.
The fact people have stopped listening, is because there is nothing worth hearing.

His will ... shall be done weather we pray for it or not.

Why would one wish to glorify man... and then claim to those who do not partake in that glorification... as hindering God.

No hate,
I just understand what they are... and they are not to be trusted to lead a church on spiritual matters.
Women in their proper role are amazing.
Women trying to be in a role they are not meant for.. are emotional tyrants.
As you are trying to be, when you state I hate women for that is emotional manipulation and dangerous... if ideas like that would be spread from a pulpit.

I avoid circles where such idle chatter as that occurs.

The church must focus on doctrine..the teaching of Christ, not gifts, not signs, not political correctness, not the crusade of the day.. ONLY Christ.
Until a church does that it is a causality in the spiritual battle that surrounds us.

all true.
awesome post.