Purgatory

[jhardy35862]

Definition: “According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) i.e Not a Bible teaching.


On what is the teaching of purgatory based?
After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”


“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.


Regarding the nature of purgatory, what do Catholic spokesmen say?
“Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XI, p. 1036, 1037.


“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.


Does the soul survive the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4, Dy: “The soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh; “man,” JB; “one,” NAB; “soul,” Kx] that sinneth, the same shall die.”


Jas. 5:20, JB: “Anyone who can bring back a sinner from the wrong way that he has taken will be saving a soul from death and covering up a great number of sins.” (Notice that this speaks of the death of the soul.)


Is further punishment for sin exacted after one’s death?
Rom. 6:7, NAB: “A man who is dead has been freed from sin.” (Kx: “Guilt makes no more claim on a man who is dead.”)


Are the dead able to experience joy because of confidence in the prospect of salvation?
Eccl. 9:5, JB: “The living know at least that they will die, the dead know nothing.”


Isa. 38:18, JB: “Sheol does not praise you [Yahweh], death does not extol you; those who go down to the pit do not go on trusting in your faithfulness.” (So how can any of them “experience great joy over the certainty of salvation”?)


According to the Bible, by what means is purification from sins accomplished?
1 John 1:7, 9, JB: “If we live our lives in the light, as he [God] is in the light, we are in union with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . If we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong [“all our wrong-doing is purged away,” Kx].”


Rev. 1:5, JB: “Jesus Christ . . . loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood.”

[keck553]

No Catholics here .

[-SEEKING-]

Considering the fact that purgatory is not found in the bible, this should probably be moved to Areopagus..

[Saved7]

MOD NOTE. Seeking is probably quite right, this belongs elsewhere ....moving thread.

[Liquid Tension]

Last edited by Saved7; Jan 25th 2012 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Thought for sure you meant Areopagus instead of asparagus. lol

[David Taylor]

Definition: “According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) i.e Not a Bible teaching.

The kicker of why Purgatory is a false teaching, is highlighted above in red.

Notice in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who makes one free from all imperfection,
and in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who makes expiation for unforgiven venial sins,
and in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who generates their purification.

In all three cases, it is rather the wayward individual themselves not Jesus Christ Himself, who accomplish these activities while hanging out in Purgatory.

This requires a modification of John 19:30 from
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished"

to

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is mostly finished except for the forgiveness of venial sins which my blood is not sufficient to forgive, but requires beyond My ability your own power and ability to perform"

[-SEEKING-]

Last edited by Saved7; Jan 25th 2012 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Thought for sure you meant Areopagus instead of asparagus. lol

Priceless huh?

[Quickened]

Purgatory is basically what you get when you don't trust Christ's atoning work on the cross to cover your sin. When Christ said "It is finished" it was and he took his seat at the right hand of the father. There was no need for continual sacrifice as we saw from the OT priesthood. The work of Christ on the cross covered saints past, present and future. To believe in purgatory is to believe that Christ's work was somehow not enough. That it was less then perfect that another step is not needed.

[Adstars]

Considering the fact that purgatory is not found in the bible, this should probably be moved to Areopagus..

They should make a section "False doctrines". then it would have an appropriate place to go to.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Luke34]

The kicker of why Purgatory is a false teaching, is highlighted above in red.

Notice in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who makes one free from all imperfection,
and in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who makes expiation for unforgiven venial sins,
and in Purgatory it is not Jesus Christ who generates their purification.

In all three cases, it is rather the wayward individual themselves not Jesus Christ Himself, who accomplish these activities while hanging out in Purgatory.

Actually, no. In Dante's Purgatorio, which is (obviously) the standard literary work on Purgatory and itself a major source of the image of Purgatory in the religious imagination for the past 700 years, the penitents don't themselves accomplish the expiation of their sins; they are subjected to a series of punishments (purgations) on a mountain of seven levels, corresponding to the seven deadly sins (not everyone has to visit every level, and not all periods of purgation are equal). The mountain in the poem (which contains the Earthly Paradise and the River Lethe on the top level) was created by God just like the other two afterworlds, and the purgations are of God's devising.

Anyway! I don't particularly care one way or the other about Purgatory as a doctrine but you guys should read the Divine Comedy, is what I'm trying to say here.

[markedward]

Sadly, people aren't even aware of the other two parts; Inferno is the only section of the book most people know about.

[gringo300]

If I understand correctly, the concept of Purgatory is entirely dependent upon the concept of "venial sin(s)".

It suddenly struck me that it seems like there's something significant in that...

[Luke34]

Sadly, people aren't even aware of the other two parts; Inferno is the only section of the book most people know about.

I've known people to read Inferno but then get bogged down in Purgatorio, and I think it's because, since Purgatory is necessarily only temporary, Dante could only include people who died relatively recently. And while there are a few (relatively) famous ones like Guido Cavalcanti, that means a lot of obscure Italian political figures from the 13th century and a lot of consulting the footnotes or endnotes. So I can kinda understand that. It's less of a problem in Hell and Paradise, because it doesn't matter how long ago someone died, and so we have the fun of seeing famous people/mythical figures like Aristotle, Plato, Homer, Ovid (in addition to Virgil), Ulysses, Brutus, Judas, Cleopatra, etc. in hell, and then eventually Saints Thomas Aquinas, Peter, Francis, Bernard, Lucy, etc. in heaven. Not that Purgatorio is BORING, it's just more difficult for a modern reader.

[Bandit]

Definition: “According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) i.e Not a Bible teaching.
...

As the Hebrew writer says,

...He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. [from Heb. 9:26-28]

So there is death, and then after this there is the judgment (and there is the one-time sacrifice for sin). I don't see any 'purgatory' inserted between the two where a man purifies himself for his own sins. So don't count on getting right with God after you die; get right with God on this side of the fence.

[Br. Barnabas]

As the Hebrew writer says,

...He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. [from Heb. 9:26-28]

So there is death, and then after this there is the judgment (and there is the one-time sacrifice for sin). I don't see any 'purgatory' inserted between the two where a man purifies himself for his own sins. So don't count on getting right with God after you die; get right with God on this side of the fence.

In the doctrine of purgatory, it is not a person who purifies him/herself from sin. It is only Jesus who purifies anyone from sin. Purgatory, if there is such a place, is where a person is cleansed of any unconfessed sins they have before they enter Heaven. It could be seen as a type of car wash for the soul, before the car goes on the showroom floor it needs to be totally clean, just as a person's soul needs to be spotless before going before the Throne of God. It is a place to shed our sinful nature that plagues our soul not just our body. Purgatory is also only for Christians, the unsaved do not go to Purgatory, according to Roman Catholic Doctrine.