Why is the doctrine of the Trinity important to you?

[fewarechosen]

good thoughts brother mark, in most i find we agree.

one thing i wanted to work through first was this

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

paul and barnabas disputed with them - the ones who brought it up "certain men" not themselves

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

note its none of the apostles who said it must be so - it was a sect of pharisees

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.


there was much disputing - doesnt say between apostles - they were disputing with those who said they needed to be circumcision in flesh

peter stood up and set record straight for them - but there is no dispute in that between apostles, its with the pharises.


the vision of peter below

Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Act 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
Act 11:11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

above peter was thinking his message was just for jews, again i see a difference between that and preaching a mistruth
he was incorrect thinking something impure which God called pure. the message was the exact same he was pointing out to peter that its for gentiles too, to me not a change in doctrine at all just letting peter know its for gentiles too.

he had a vision showing him to preach it to the gentiles, and God himself showed him not man. paul didnt have to come up and say dude thats for everyone. God did it. a few moments later in acts is when he says you all know i was sent to preach it to gentiles referencing this vision.

so in none of these do i see apostle correcting apostle or man teaching them anything.

now most definatly the apostles and others are appointed teachers - and i know you know this without me saying that the Holy Spirit entered them and they taught what the spirit showed them. so they were appointed as teachers not by man but by Holy Spirit. so it holds that they needed no man teacheth them. when they are appointed as teachers, it is done through Holy Spirit and that is what teaches through them.

so what we are seeking is the truth given by God, he may have a person deliver it to us. but its not the man that is teaching, why they say you need that no man teacheth you. meaning if you are going to man to learn of God you are looking in wrong place, if you go to God and he sends you a man with a message of the HS to teach you thats his choice. either way no man is needed to teach you. it still came from God. may seem almost like a nonsense point but for me its a huge difference in where you are looking.

now do we all(those with HS) believe the correct thing right away ? nope

Holy Spirit has to undo alot of what we thought we know. for me the beam is still getting pulled out. hence he still making me aware of things i am in error of.

we look through a dim glass now that is very true, but what we are looking at behind the glass should be the same.

Good stuff brother mark i enjoy our discussions, its gettin late here so off to bed, see you back here soon

[jeffweeder]

When i was young, i was convinced there was a God. I didnt know anything about Jesus at that time. On hearing his voice, i felt i knew that he was a faithful witness of God, and have never looked back. I believe in him, but didnt really know the depths of who he actually was, and how it was God who was doing the saving. God saved the world because he was Jesus Christ our Lord.
God is love ...Father sends the Son because he loves the world, .....Son loves the Father and the world and saves us from death....believers are sealed with the Spirit of God, which is all about the fruit of the relationship between the Father and the Son, whose glory existed before the world even began......God has done a wonderful thing for us.

[ewq1938]

The Trinity doctrine is important solely because that is how the scriptures describe the Godhead. While there is one God, there is not one "person" or "entity" or "individual" or "being" which is God. We have three which are the one God which is confusing at first but not really as complicated as it might seem.

[jeffweeder]

The Trinity doctrine is important solely because that is how the scriptures describe the Godhead. While there is one God, there is not one "person" or "entity" or "individual" or "being" which is God. We have three which are the one God which is confusing at first but not really as complicated as it might seem.

Yes.
God is love, and cannot be seen to be alone within himself...........let us...in our image., sayeth the Lord.

[Brother Mark]

good thoughts brother mark, in most i find we agree.

one thing i wanted to work through first was this

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

paul and barnabas disputed with them - the ones who brought it up "certain men" not themselves

OK.

above peter was thinking his message was just for jews, again i see a difference between that and preaching a mistruth
he was incorrect thinking something impure which God called pure. the message was the exact same he was pointing out to peter that its for gentiles too, to me not a change in doctrine at all just letting peter know its for gentiles too.

he had a vision showing him to preach it to the gentiles, and God himself showed him not man. paul didnt have to come up and say dude thats for everyone. God did it. a few moments later in acts is when he says you all know i was sent to preach it to gentiles referencing this vision.

Peter was wrong in his "doctrine" about the Gentiles being unclean.

so in none of these do i see apostle correcting apostle or man teaching them anything.

Paul had to correct Peter of sin though.

now most definatly the apostles and others are appointed teachers - and i know you know this without me saying that the Holy Spirit entered them and they taught what the spirit showed them. so they were appointed as teachers not by man but by Holy Spirit. so it holds that they needed no man teacheth them. when they are appointed as teachers, it is done through Holy Spirit and that is what teaches through them.

They did teach each other. For instance, Peter was the one who taught the other apostles about grace coming to the Gentiles in Acts 15. Right? And Paul taught Peter not to say one thing and do another. Well, he corrected him but not sure he taught him.

I do agree that the Holy Spirit taught through them.

so what we are seeking is the truth given by God, he may have a person deliver it to us. but its not the man that is teaching, why they say you need that no man teacheth you. meaning if you are going to man to learn of God you are looking in wrong place, if you go to God and he sends you a man with a message of the HS to teach you thats his choice. either way no man is needed to teach you. it still came from God. may seem almost like a nonsense point but for me its a huge difference in where you are looking.

If man is hearing from God, then man is teaching what God says. That is key for every sermon! If we are not hearing from God, then we are not teaching from God. God taught me a long time ago that he could do more with 1 word than I could do with 10,000!

now do we all(those with HS) believe the correct thing right away ? nope

Right!

Holy Spirit has to undo alot of what we thought we know. for me the beam is still getting pulled out. hence he still making me aware of things i am in error of.

Same here.

we look through a dim glass now that is very true, but what we are looking at behind the glass should be the same.

Good stuff brother mark i enjoy our discussions, its gettin late here so off to bed, see you back here soon

Sounds good. Way past my bed time too. I am enjoying our discussions as well.

Grace to you,

Mark

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

No. The trinity is only one interpretive explanation of what Scripture says regarding God and Jesus.

What is foundational (i.e. what is taught in Scripture) is: Yahweh is God, Yahweh is one. Yahweh created all things. The Father is Yahweh God. Jesus is Yahweh as a man, the Son of God.

No. The trinity explanation is severely flawed, and relies far too much on Biblically-external philosophizing than it does on actual Scriptural exegesis. All verses that are used as evidence for the trinity doctrine really don't hold much weight (e.g. the mere fact that 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' are mentioned in a single sentence does not automatically 'prove' that God is three persons; all it suggests is that those three are related in some way; the idea of God being plural 'persons' cannot be derived from that, or any other, verse in Scripture).

Yippee!! YahOOOO!! and AMEN!

[Ta-An]

Yippee!! YahOOOO!! and AMEN!

I am so happy that somebody could string the right words in the right order for you to be happy with and agree Eventually

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I have wondered about this in the past. Is the doctrine of the Trinity foundational in any way? If so, how? Is the Trinity doctrine something you feel like needs to be defended. If so, why?

Note: For clarification, I am not suggesting or asking about the Godhood of Jesus. He is God. I am asking why believing in the Trinity is say more or less important than believing in modalism or some other belief concerning the Godhead. I am also looking for how the belief impacts the believer.

Note2: OK, just for clarification again, what is the impact on the believer if he doesn't believe in the Trinity? What is He missing out on? For those that don't believe in the Trinity, the same question to you. What impact does it have on the believer? What are they missing out on if they do believe?

No need to justify your belief in this thread. What I am looking for is this... what the consequences for those that might disagree with you concerning belief in the Trinity doctrine or belief in the Modalism doctrine or belief in some other doctrine?


Thanks,

Mark

I can only share my personal testimony.

I was raised in a loving home by a Baptist minister and his faithfully supportive wife. I grew up under the pew, in the choir loft, and at every activity of every kind. My father was seminary-trained and fulfilled every possible Associate and Senior Pastoral position and role available in modern Protestant ecclesiology.

At 7 years old in a revival meeting, I went forward to make a profession of faith. I was asked why I came to the front, and I said I wanted to "get saved". The home Pastor said, "My, we're glad you've come to the front. Pray this prayer after me [insert sinner's prayer here], and you'll be saved. I did, and was baptized the next Sunday after my parents were very convinced I was saved. I believed Jesus was the Son of God.

Throught the years, I struggled to grow up like all kids/teenagers. I spent summers at multiple youth camps, and felt a call of God on my life. I decided to attend Bible College to prepare for ministry. I had been plagued with doubt and fear for a number of years, and at age 20 I attended a crusade while I was active as an apprentice on the ministry staff of a very large church. One night, the message was about "nailing down your salvation if you have doubts", and the altars were full, including me. Hundreds were weeping and "driving a stake of faith in the ground for assurance". I was "doubt dunked" the next week for my second free bath.

I finished college, took an Associate position on Pastoral staff, got married, and began years of ministry to all ages in various Pastoral roles. I was doing what I knew to do. What I felt I should do. And I never really had any doubts about my salvation after college. I was growing youth ministry from 10 to over 100; children's ministry from 25 to over 100; reaching families and bringing them into the church; growing the adult choir by double; adding choirs for age-groups; starting instrumental groups; teaching, preaching, and singing in revivals and nursing homes and any other venue possible; driving vans and buses to pick up all ages for services; attending school activities and integrating into the community.

To cut it short... I didn't know in whom I had believed. Because I'd been raised Trinitarian, that was my only consideration as truth. I would argue vehemently for Trinity, much like many on the forum do. I never once considered that I didn't have salvific faith because Trinity is the mainstay of Christianity. It never entered my mind to question my indoctrination.

After 12 years in Pastoral ministry, I had become disillusioned with myself and others. The growth in numbers and programs and attendance just didn't matter, because I didn't see or feel God in any of it. Sure, there were times and moments; but overall I saw power struggles and carnal believers, including myself. I would cry out to God that there had to be more but I didn't know what it was. Finally, I left my church and went into private business.

I was financially successful, but my marriage was falling apart. After 3 years and a divorce, my life was in shambles and I was desperate. It was at this time God brought a man into my life who shared the truth of the Gospel with me in a way that changed my life. He began to share with me that Jesus is God. Of course, my response was immediately that yes, Jesus is God. It took a few days, but I began to understand what he was saying as he showed me the fallacy of Trinity and that God is one.

I had somehow always believed the Father was God, and that the Son was also divine. Since the Son was a different "person" than the Father and the Holy Spirit, I never really assmilated the Son as actually being God even though I believed he was somehow divine. I had never truly believed that Jesus was God. I had assented to what I was indoctrinated to say, think, and believe, but had no idea I didn't actually have salvific faith.

After many questions, I left my new mentor and went to earnest prayer with a repentant heart. I confessed my sin and repented, and I poured my heart out to God in confusion. I asked God to remove everything in my heart and mind that wasn't the truth; to add whatever was missing in my heart that WAS the truth; and to change anything else that was partially true or needed any change for me to know the truth. I tearfully opened my Bible to Hebrews; and by about chapter 7 the Word had come alive to me and I could clearly see that Jesus IS God. Not just the Son of God. Not a different "person" than the Father. Jesus is the person of God in the flesh.

THAT was the moment of true salvific faith for me, when I believed Jesus was the one singular God in the flesh and NOT a separate "person" from the Father who was God. Trinity had hidden the true WHOLE deity of Christ from me. The "persons" were so discreet, I couldn't believe they were the same God, though I vehemently said I did for 28 years. I was scripturally baptized immediately.

For a couple of years, I was content to know God was one. Not a Modalist Oneness, but one. I wasn't sure how and didn't care. I had a vital relationship in prayer and fasting, and the word was alive to me while I voraciously read it day and night to know Him more. I never had any inkling all this time of "reformulating" the Godhead in any way. But challenges and oppositions came over and over. So I began study with a premiere Greek mentor and had been incessantly praying for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

As the years went by, the Spirit led me to concentrate on the constitution of man as spirit, soul, and body; and I began praying and fasting one Greek word at a time until I began to have a clear understanding of many things. This same process ultimately led me to the process of digging out an entire exegesis that would maintain every contributing sub-tenet of Trinity while expunging "persons".

Bottom line: Trinity CAN obscure the true nature of the FULL deity of Christ. It did for me, for 28 years. Jesus isn't just 1/3 of God as part of God; Jesus is every bit of God, and not because of a contrived perichoresis sub-doctrine that the "persons" are all in each other.

Trinity has become Triadism. I believed Jesus was some part of a deity, but not GOD. I believed Jesus was a different "who" that the one true God. That's the danger in believing a doctrine of men that has been built upon the foundation of an extra-biblical ("person/s") term to even be expressed. Personhood can supplant Godhood.

Trinity isn't inherently heretical in the sense of being automatically non-salvific, and many Trinitarians DO have salvific faith; but there are many who share my plight and don't know it.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Anything not in the sacred text is leaven. I had partaken of the leaven of "person/s" in Trinity. It cost me my soul for 28 years; as a child, a teenager, a Bible College student, a minister, a husband, and a father. Now I know in whom I have believed. How can one believe in whom they have not heard? Because of Trinity, my heart had not heard that Jesus IS God. Now I have ears to hear.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I am so happy that somebody could string the right words in the right order for you to be happy with and agree Eventually

Me, too. It happens so infrequently in a faith that largely believes God is celestial siamese triplets... or a banana.

[Ta-An]

I can only share my personal testimony.

Thanks for sharing...
My only question to you is this : Who was Jesus speaking too when He was in the flesh on the cross?

[TrustGzus]

I think the doctrine of the Trinity is important because if it is false, Jesus lied at times to make points and this just makes him another religious huckster and Christianity false. Which means my hope is in vain.

[Indueseason]

I can only share my personal testimony.

I was raised in a loving home by a Baptist minister and his faithfully supportive wife. I grew up under the pew, in the choir loft, and at every activity of every kind. My father was seminary-trained and fulfilled every possible Associate and Senior Pastoral position and role available in modern Protestant ecclesiology.

At 7 years old in a revival meeting, I went forward to make a profession of faith. I was asked why I came to the front, and I said I wanted to "get saved". The home Pastor said, "My, we're glad you've come to the front. Pray this prayer after me [insert sinner's prayer here], and you'll be saved. I did, and was baptized the next Sunday after my parents were very convinced I was saved. I believed Jesus was the Son of God.

Throught the years, I struggled to grow up like all kids/teenagers. I spent summers at multiple youth camps, and felt a call of God on my life. I decided to attend Bible College to prepare for ministry. I had been plagued with doubt and fear for a number of years, and at age 20 I attended a crusade while I was active as an apprentice on the ministry staff of a very large church. One night, the message was about "nailing down your salvation if you have doubts", and the altars were full, including me. Hundreds were weeping and "driving a stake of faith in the ground for assurance". I was "doubt dunked" the next week for my second free bath.

I finished college, took an Associate position on Pastoral staff, got married, and began years of ministry to all ages in various Pastoral roles. I was doing what I knew to do. What I felt I should do. And I never really had any doubts about my salvation after college. I was growing youth ministry from 10 to over 100; children's ministry from 25 to over 100; reaching families and bringing them into the church; growing the adult choir by double; adding choirs for age-groups; starting instrumental groups; teaching, preaching, and singing in revivals and nursing homes and any other venue possible; driving vans and buses to pick up all ages for services; attending school activities and integrating into the community.

To cut it short... I didn't know in whom I had believed. Because I'd been raised Trinitarian, that was my only consideration as truth. I would argue vehemently for Trinity, much like many on the forum do. I never once considered that I didn't have salvific faith because Trinity is the mainstay of Christianity. It never entered my mind to question my indoctrination.

After 12 years in Pastoral ministry, I had become disillusioned with myself and others. The growth in numbers and programs and attendance just didn't matter, because I didn't see or feel God in any of it. Sure, there were times and moments; but overall I saw power struggles and carnal believers, including myself. I would cry out to God that there had to be more but I didn't know what it was. Finally, I left my church and went into private business.

I was financially successful, but my marriage was falling apart. After 3 years and a divorce, my life was in shambles and I was desperate. It was at this time God brought a man into my life who shared the truth of the Gospel with me in a way that changed my life. He began to share with me that Jesus is God. Of course, my response was immediately that yes, Jesus is God. It took a few days, but I began to understand what he was saying as he showed me the fallacy of Trinity and that God is one.

I had somehow always believed the Father was God, and that the Son was also divine. Since the Son was a different "person" than the Father and the Holy Spirit, I never really assmilated the Son as actually being God even though I believed he was somehow divine. I had never truly believed that Jesus was God. I had assented to what I was indoctrinated to say, think, and believe, but had no idea I didn't actually have salvific faith.

After many questions, I left my new mentor and went to earnest prayer with a repentant heart. I confessed my sin and repented, and I poured my heart out to God in confusion. I asked God to remove everything in my heart and mind that wasn't the truth; to add whatever was missing in my heart that WAS the truth; and to change anything else that was partially true or needed any change for me to know the truth. I tearfully opened my Bible to Hebrews; and by about chapter 7 the Word had come alive to me and I could clearly see that Jesus IS God. Not just the Son of God. Not a different "person" than the Father. Jesus is the person of God in the flesh.

THAT was the moment of true salvific faith for me, when I believed Jesus was the one singular God in the flesh and NOT a separate "person" from the Father who was God. Trinity had hidden the true WHOLE deity of Christ from me. The "persons" were so discreet, I couldn't believe they were the same God, though I vehemently said I did for 28 years. I was scripturally baptized immediately.

For a couple of years, I was content to know God was one. Not a Modalist Oneness, but one. I wasn't sure how and didn't care. I had a vital relationship in prayer and fasting, and the word was alive to me while I voraciously read it day and night to know Him more. I never had any inkling all this time of "reformulating" the Godhead in any way. But challenges and oppositions came over and over. So I began study with a premiere Greek mentor and had been incessantly praying for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

As the years went by, the Spirit led me to concentrate on the constitution of man as spirit, soul, and body; and I began praying and fasting one Greek word at a time until I began to have a clear understanding of many things. This same process ultimately led me to the process of digging out an entire exegesis that would maintain every contributing sub-tenet of Trinity while expunging "persons".

Bottom line: Trinity CAN obscure the true nature of the FULL deity of Christ. It did for me, for 28 years. Jesus isn't just 1/3 of God as part of God; Jesus is every bit of God, and not because of a contrived perichoresis sub-doctrine that the "persons" are all in each other.

Trinity has become Triadism. I believed Jesus was some part of a deity, but not GOD. I believed Jesus was a different "who" that the one true God. That's the danger in believing a doctrine of men that has been built upon the foundation of an extra-biblical ("person/s") term to even be expressed. Personhood can supplant Godhood.

Trinity isn't inherently heretical in the sense of being automatically non-salvific, and many Trinitarians DO have salvific faith; but there are many who share my plight and don't know it.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Anything not in the sacred text is leaven. I had partaken of the leaven of "person/s" in Trinity. It cost me my soul for 28 years; as a child, a teenager, a Bible College student, a minister, a husband, and a father. Now I know in whom I have believed. How can one believe in whom they have not heard? Because of Trinity, my heart had not heard that Jesus IS God. Now I have ears to hear.

That's some testimony brother! Praise God !!

blessings to you

[turtledove]

I will answer two pointed presented: i.e. why the doctrine of the Trinity is important to me (personally) and how it impacts me (personally). So no big theological argument here..just my reflections.

God, the Father IS father to me. I lost my own as a child and I have experienced fatherly love from Abba Father ever since. Also when I take walks outside and when I behold the wonders of the world of nature, all of the creatures, plants, etc. I see the hand of a loving Creater God..this impacts me, blesses me, and gives me joy.

God, the Son, is a window to the Father for me. Jesus, the Son of God, who is also God came to save me, restore me to the Father, and show me the Way to live out my life. He has called me friend and He is friend to me.

God, the Holy Spirit, who is also God, is the love, peace, joy, etc. I see and experience from others who walk in the way of the Holy Spirit, and also the one who impowers me, strengthens me, and guides me daily. I am thus impacted by that.

I need all three because I need God and all are one in God. Through the Son and Holy Spirit I can know God (as much as is possible in this life) love God and others as the love of God is poured out in me and through me by the Holy Spirit, and I am healed and restored to God for all eternity because of the death of Jesus Christ. Because I am a new Creature reborn and filled with the love of God I can serve God and others.

In the Words of Jesus, our Savior and Lord.." Our Father, who art in heaven..hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come...thy will be done. "

When it comes right down to it none of us can ever capture the majesty of the Godhead..or understand the mystery of three in one. But as we believe and walk in faith we are surely impacted daily by the Trinity.

[divaD]

After many questions, I left my new mentor and went to earnest prayer with a repentant heart. I confessed my sin and repented, and I poured my heart out to God in confusion.

When you say you confessed your sin, are you meaning your alleged misunderstanding of the trinity, and that that was the sin, or or you meaning sin in general? Great testimony BTW, but couldn't help wondering what you meant here.

[RollTide21]

How accurate was the prodigal son's belief concerning his father? He thought he would be treated as a hired servant. But his father far exceeded his belief.

So if we believe wrongly about the Trinity, in what way does that limit what the Father is going to do for us? For instance there are some lies, if you believe them, you are doomed! If you believe Jesus is not God, you go to hell. What are the consequences for being wrong about the Trinity? Can you give me some specific ones besides just "you are worshiping wrongly". That is one we could apply to all could we not? Some say that if you are wrong about music in the church, you are not worshiping in spirit and in truth. What is the practical consequence for being wrong about the Trinity?

None.

We believe in God through Christ Jesus. We worship Him as our means to God...however that works out, technically. If we have Faith in Christ, we understand God as much as is required for the type of intimate relationship He wants us to have with Him.