Baptism

[Slug1]

What I would really like to see, is properly exegeted passages of Scripture applied without fallacious arguments and arguments from silence.



That's interesting, I'm the one who can't see, but it's my posts with the historical support and the properly exegeted passages of Scripture. On the other hand you've simply posted a few verses of Scripture and said they mean this without any supporting evidence.


And so we don't forget, I'm still waiting for that passage that says one is saved the moment they believe.

You know me Butch and you understand that I don't care what those "old" dudes had to say about scripture. You use their opinions, you've adopted their opinions and thus... it's very difficult to utilize scripture in any discussion with you. If the scriptures don't align according to "their" exegeted order and to their meaning, you will NOT accept the Word of God. IOW.. if the scripture is aligned according to God's truth but not the old dudes interpretation and the truth that they came to... then you call any scripture presented... fallacy.

I already posted scriptures (post #9) that you've asked for twice(?) now, instead of calling the scriptures "fallacy" as you are doing, address them all and then we can continue.

I have MANY more... but until you begin to address the scriptures I can only expect that you will ignore them and drop the fallacy card.

You want to discuss scripture... there are about 10 or so in post #9.

[ClayInHisHands]

Simply, the ECFs didn't approach this issue from the perspective of whether baptism was essential or not. It was just part of the process of conversion. Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism were the components of initiating the salvation experience. There was no exclusion of any of these.Polycarp wouldn't be heard saying, "Okay, now that you're saved by your faith, let's baptize you as an outward sign of your inner obedience." It wasn't an issue.

I keep hearing Gladys Knight & The Pips "Can It Be That It Was All So Simple Then"

I don't understand why we don't have lots of threads on Loving our neighbor and God and that they mean this or might mean that? Oh wait, I do, because it's not a huge issue, we simply love our neighbor and God because we are told to. We don't question why we have to or not.

[Butch5]

You know me Butch and you understand that I don't care what those "old" dudes had to say about scripture. You use their opinions, you've adopted their opinions and thus... it's very difficult to utilize scripture in any discussion with you. If the scriptures don't align according to "their" exegeted order and to their meaning, you will NOT accept the Word of God. IOW.. if the scripture is aligned according to God's truth but not the old dudes interpretation and the truth that they came to... then you call any scripture presented... fallacy.

I already posted scriptures (post #9) that you've asked for twice(?) now, instead of calling the scriptures "fallacy" as you are doing, address them all and then we can continue.

I have MANY more... but until you begin to address the scriptures I can only expect that you will ignore them and drop the fallacy card.

You want to discuss scripture... there are about 10 or so in post #9.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Jesus states plainly, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. That should end the discussion here.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This passage does not address baptism

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Again, Jesus states clearly that unless one is born of water he cannot enter the kingdom of God

Ezekiel 36: 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Are you Jewish and living in the land of Israel? Are you looking at the waste places that are now built up and look like the Garden of Eden? Could please explain to me what this has to do with water baptism?

16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. {their: or, your}
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. (Eze 36:16-36 KJV)

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[a] and the wicked one does not touch him.

None of these passages address baptism

OK, I've addressed you passages now will you provide at least on passage?

[Butch5]

Hey there, Butch my bro,

I didn't think you were casting stones. I agreed with Amazzin simply because, after many many times around the baptismal discussion block, I've seen these discussions turn rather nasty and unedifying. I understood your observation to be just that...an observation. There were two unrelated statements in my post, and I should've separated them more betterethly!

ybiC,

Watchman

Hi Watchman,

I'm amazed also at the reaction this gets.

[Slug1]

Jesus states plainly, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. That should end the discussion here.

NO... let's BEGIN the discussion here. Do you recall that using half a scripture or surgically cutting a scripture in half is a tactic of satan? The devil set this standard with Jesus when he was tempting Jesus in the desert and using half or truncated scriptures against Jesus.

To cut a scripture in half means there is NO context or truth and to say half a scripture should end a discussion don't make much sense.

It shows you don't want to discuss the Word of God... you just want to take a few words of half a scripture and throw it into a discussion as if those few words of a single scripture mean something. The devil did this with Jesus and it didn't work... it's not gonna work here either.

So lets begin here... how can you justify with only what half a scripture says... means that a person who isn't baptized = not in Christ?

I didn't read the rest of your reply so, we can address this step by step.

[PJW]

Let's look at Mark 16:16.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Verse 15 says what he must believe, the gospel. So if a man doesn't believe the gospel, why would he get baptized?
I must ask you posters, how does one "get in Christ"? He is baptized into Christ. (Ro 6:3) "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27)
How is the blood of Christ applied to you, to atone for your sins? The blood is applied while you are crucified with Christ. (Ro 6:6), and this happens in baptism.
Post 60 mentioned being dipped in H20, but we are actually being baptized with the blood of Christ, and in His Spirit. (I Jo 5:8) "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."
Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." They answered Him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, "Ye shall be made free?" Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32-34)
Did the "truth" you follow free you from sinning? If so, then it is of God.
Luke writes of John the baptist, "And thou, child, shall be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways: To give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of their sins, (Luke 1:76-77) Where did Peter say that sins are remitted? "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) [I don't believe your other translation of Acts 2:38 is real.]
If you're not baptized, then you are not in Christ, nor are you crucified with Him, nor was the blood of Jesus applied onto you, nor are you reborn, nor are you dead unto sin, nor are you a servant of righteousness. The bible says you are a servant of sin. (Ro 6:3-20)

[Slug1]

Let's look at Mark 16:16.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Verse 15 says what he must believe, the gospel. So if a man doesn't believe the gospel, why would he get baptized?
I must ask you posters, how does one "get in Christ"? He is baptized into Christ. (Ro 6:3) "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27)
How is the blood of Christ applied to you, to atone for your sins? The blood is applied while you are crucified with Christ. (Ro 6:6), and this happens in baptism.
Post 60 mentioned being dipped in H20, but we are actually being baptized with the blood of Christ, and in His Spirit. (I Jo 5:8) "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."
Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." They answered Him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, "Ye shall be made free?" Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32-34)
Did the "truth" you follow free you from sinning? If so, then it is of God.
Luke writes of John the baptist, "And thou, child, shall be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways: To give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of their sins, (Luke 1:76-77) Where did Peter say that sins are remitted? "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) [I don't believe your other translation of Acts 2:38 is real.]
If you're not baptized, then you are not in Christ, nor are you crucified with Him, nor was the blood of Jesus applied onto you, nor are you reborn, nor are you dead unto sin, nor are you a servant of righteousness. The bible says you are a servant of sin. (Ro 6:3-20)

Believing in Christ immediately baptizes the believer in "FIRE". Man is led to do a water baptism as a "symbol" of this. It is an act of obedience. If one is not obedient, that does NOT mean they will not be saved. Man is not obedient in allot... that is why we can repent and true repentance isn't about feeling BAD for lack of obedience. Repentance is STOPPING from the sin OR.. DOING what you have not done in obedience... God wants us to be baptized in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit as an outward act of faith. Just because a person doesn't do that... don't mean they will not be saved... just means they'll be judged for that lack of obedience just like they will be judged for any other lack of obedience.

Cornelius was not baptized in water but due to his belief, he was already baptized in fire and when Peter spoke with them all about Jesus... the Holy Spirit was able to move freely through that household and all in the home who were Gentiles and already in Christ. Peter's preaching didn't bring them to believing, God brought Peter to believe that the Gentiles can accept Jesus as their Savior and since Cornelius, his family and all his friends present were already in Christ through belief... Peter believed and then offered to them an opportunity to be obedient to the act that symbolizes the baptism that Jesus had already completed.

You see, people who accept Christ... they are immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit and this is NOT seen by human eyes. The Bible also says that we are to declare Christ and the first act of this is through the act of water baptism so ALL can see that a person has accepted Christ and that they will be saved.

[Bliz]

Baptism without a doubt is necessary as part of a Christian's conversion. Baptism is a personal application of the Christian gospel.

Our own personal Easter if you will... Just as spirit baptism is our own personal Pentecost.

Water baptism is the consummation of one's faith and repentance.

Surprisingly enough, an un-baptized believer is a concept foreign to the New Testament Church in the Scriptures.

We would do well to take notice of this simple fact.

To see it only as an "act of obedience" or "testimony" or as merely "symbolic” is to miss its essential purpose.

Much of the confusion in the church today regarding the sacrament of water baptism came as a direct result of Greek thinking and philosophy entering into the church around the 2nd century… The Greeks always had a hard time reconciling any connection between the physical and spiritual realms. This was later adopted by men like Augustine, who has passed this down to most modern day evangelicals who espouse Calvinism.

There are host of other false doctrines which also accompany this thawed theological system.

Butch posted a great link on another thread by a pastor from Florida who has done a great job in pointing out examples of this, and how it has influenced the writings of the Apostles while penning the Holy writ of Scripture.

Because if this successive Greek influence having crept into Christian thought, many Christians go on without ever having awareness that God does something in the physical act of water baptism.

Thus we see statements like the one made by Slug1 where he said:

“Again... the act of submitting to a water baptism is an "outward" expression of the faith a person has in Christ AFTER they have accepted Him.”


This type of comment perfectly exemplifies what constitutes the Greek definition of a Sacrament which when applied to baptism, states that a sacrament is merely “an outward evidence of an inward reality” without recognizing any connection between the physical and the spiritual realm whatsoever.

Slug’s statement is not at all unique. It is based on what most of us have been taught on this topic at some time...

Baptism is a means of saving grace in the sense that the writers of the New Testament use the word "save" in relation to baptism (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:40-41, 1Peter3:21).

Of course, baptism in and of itself saves nobody, but what many Christians fail to recognize is that God does something divine through the physical act of baptism. And yes, there is a real connection between the physical act, as well as what’s going on in the realm of the Spirit.

Baptism brings one's repentance and faith to its fullness and consummation.

One would have to bring fruit worthy of repentance before being baptized into repentance in the 1st century.

Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins. One had to be in repentance before being baptized "into" repentance.

Just like a couple who are "in love" would be married "into" love bringing their love to it's climactic fulfillment, baptism would bring one who is already in repentance "into" repentance (Matt 3:11).

Notice that marriage doesn't create the love, but it brings it to its ultimate conclusion & fulfillment.

Baptism does the same for repentance.

Much like the priests of the Old Testament times, the New Testament talks of the priesthood of the believer, and when considering Jesus' words in John 3:5, we can see that washing and anointing found in the Old Testament priesthood finds it's New Testament equivalent in being born "out" of "water and the Spirit".

Also, notice how the Apostles associated baptism with events in the Old Testament, which brought forth redemption.

Peter saw a type of Christian baptism in Noah's flood where Noah and his family were separated from their former evil world by water (1Peter 3:20).

God used water as a means of bringing a new beginning to the earth.

Paul saw the crossing of the Red Sea as a type of baptism (1Cor 10:1-2). Just as passing through the waters separated the Jews from the trappings of Egypt and the dominion of pharaoh, baptism separates us from Satan and the dominion of sin (Romans 6:4-14).

Notice that God called Israel His "Firstborn" as a result of this event, which took place passing through the waters.

It is the power of God through His Spirit in response to our repentance and faith, which enables this physical act to have such a spiritual effect.

There is so much more to say regarding this important topic.

Due to the influences that have crept into the Church over the first two centuries onward, it is easy to see why so many believers heatedly debate this subject. I personally want everything that God has to offer me for a full conversion so that I can have all of the benefits God intends for me in starting my Christian walk.

Why seek only the bare essentials?

Baptism is both a bath and a burial.

Burial is the final goodbye when one dies.

Burial brings closure. Not the funeral.

Water baptism brings closure to the old life.

Spirit baptism brings power and equips us for our new life.

Both are necessary and vital in the life of the Christian believer.

Physical acts are indeed intended to have spiritual effects. Every human being knows this principal whether or not they are believers.

Washing with water is no exception.

Just remember Pilate if you want a classic example...

When he condemned an innocent man to die, notice that he called for a bowl of water to physically wash his hands as if the physical act of washing with water would somehow cleanse his inner guilt.

Notice that both perpetrators and victims of sexual crimes often run to the shower as only if to feel cleaner on the inside.

Ask any psychiatrist about those who have a guilt complex. One of the major symptoms of this you will notice will be excessive washing with water.

Only with God in repentance will this act ever achieve its desired effect in our lives.

Baptism is something far more than being merely symbolic.

It is deeply spiritual.

However, baptism is only as effective as the faith that you bring to it. Colossians speaks about this.

And yes, it is an essential element in the process of salvation.

Greek influence has caused much of the confusion that has tangled us in translation, and has resulted in so much confusion and debate.

Blessings to all!


Bliz


And on another note regarding Cornelius:

I believe that God baptized Cornelius with the Spirit 1st (as opposed to him having been water baptized), was because there was no way that Peter would have baptized him in water, because Cornelius was a Gentile. God showed Peter that He had accepted Cornelius, so who was Peter to deny water baptism to him since God had accepted him? It was a shock to Peter that God's plan of salvation included Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-48

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [have]?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days."

[Slug1]

Baptism is something far more than being merely symbolic.

It is deeply spiritual.

However, baptism is only as effective as the faith that you bring to it. Colossians speaks about this.

And yes, it is an essential element in the process of salvation.

Greek influence has caused much of the confusion that has tangled us in translation, and has resulted in so much confusion and debate.

Blessings to all!


Bliz


And on another note regarding Cornelius:

Awesome post... in reading it this morning and only two quotes from me, I don't feel you expressed me in the light in which I am speaking from all my posts in this thread. As a matter of fact, you pretty much said all I did but you used a more charismatic way to express it all. Right down to what you said about Cornelius, I already said the same, you just said it all again in more words. You point other things out as well.

Tell me, did Paul tell the jailor that belief AND water baptism will save him or just the belief part and THEN once that is done, then they could allow the jailor and his family an opportunity to express their belief through an immediate water baptism?

What was preventing the eunuch from going through with a water baptism?

Baptism is an essential element in the "PROCESS" of salvation but not a NECESSARY element. Many people who BELIEVE in Christ will have gone to their death without repenting for ALL their sins, many will never get baptized in water... are you also one who will say that there is NO WAY they will experience "salvation" in the end because there judgement is a guaranteed ticket to eternal separation from Jesus because they never did a water baptism?

I'll ask a question for all in this thread as well.

The Mark, Chapter 16 scriptures about the Great Commission... do those who are participating in this discussion put FAITH and TRUST in the entire context of Great Commission as God had Mark write it all out?

Or is the only part of the ENTIRE Commission that says: "16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;" is the ONLY part of that entire Commission allowed INTO the box while the REST of the Great Commission is ignored/not trusted/not believed/not accepted etc... and left OUTSIDE the box?

Seriously think about that.

[Butch5]

Believing in Christ immediately baptizes the believer in "FIRE". Man is led to do a water baptism as a "symbol" of this. It is an act of obedience. If one is not obedient, that does NOT mean they will not be saved. Man is not obedient in allot... that is why we can repent and true repentance isn't about feeling BAD for lack of obedience. Repentance is STOPPING from the sin OR.. DOING what you have not done in obedience... God wants us to be baptized in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit as an outward act of faith. Just because a person doesn't do that... don't mean they will not be saved... just means they'll be judged for that lack of obedience just like they will be judged for any other lack of obedience.Cornelius was not baptized in water but due to his belief, he was already baptized in fire and when Peter spoke with them all about Jesus... the Holy Spirit was able to move freely through that household and all in the home who were Gentiles and already in Christ. Peter's preaching didn't bring them to believing, God brought Peter to believe that the Gentiles can accept Jesus as their Savior and since Cornelius, his family and all his friends present were already in Christ through belief... Peter believed and then offered to them an opportunity to be obedient to the act that symbolizes the baptism that Jesus had already completed.You see, people who accept Christ... they are immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit and this is NOT seen by human eyes. The Bible also says that we are to declare Christ and the first act of this is through the act of water baptism so ALL can see that a person has accepted Christ and that they will be saved.

Slug1---Believing in Christ immediately baptizes the believer in "FIRE".

Luke, Paul's traveling companion and writer of the Gospel.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

¹⁶ (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Act 8:15-16 KJV)

Slug1--- It is an act of obedience

Just one verse.

[Butch5]

NO... let's BEGIN the discussion here. Do you recall that using half a scripture or surgically cutting a scripture in half is a tactic of satan? The devil set this standard with Jesus when he was tempting Jesus in the desert and using half or truncated scriptures against Jesus.

To cut a scripture in half means there is NO context or truth and to say half a scripture should end a discussion don't make much sense.

It shows you don't want to discuss the Word of God... you just want to take a few words of half a scripture and throw it into a discussion as if those few words of a single scripture mean something. The devil did this with Jesus and it didn't work... it's not gonna work here either.

So lets begin here... how can you justify with only what half a scripture says... means that a person who isn't baptized = not in Christ?

I didn't read the rest of your reply so, we can address this step by step.

Slug1, you said if I addressed your post you'd give me the Scrpiture.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

There's significant evidence to consider the long ending of Mark as spurious, regardless which side of this issue one is on; enough so to leave it only as supplemental for foundational teaching.

[Butch5]

There's significant evidence to consider the long ending of Mark as spurious, regardless which side of this issue one is on; enough so to leave it only as supplemental for foundational teaching.

Hi PPS,

Just curious, what evidence do you have?

[Watchman]

There's significant evidence to consider the long ending of Mark as spurious, regardless which side of this issue one is on; enough so to leave it only as supplemental for foundational teaching.

I agree with Butch. It has been years since I considered the evidence regarding the last verses of Mark 16. It would be nice to see it again!

Thanks,

W

PS: ...and I'm handling no snakes and drinking no poison until I reconsider the evidence! (kidding)

[Watchman]

deleted duplicate post...don't know if my computer is slysdexic or schizophrenic...