Baptism

[markedward]

You're asking whether or not your translation of Acts 2:38 is accurate, so that tells me you are acknowledging that it's difficult to translate and understand that verse, right?

Not this, no. I was asking if my translation was accurate because I'm still learning Greek, not because this verse was particularly difficult. It was actually easy to go through, but I'm still going to ask someone who knows Greek better than I do to make sure I translated accurately.

[John146]

Not this, no. I was asking if my translation was accurate because I'm still learning Greek, not because this verse was particularly difficult. It was actually easy to go through, but I'm still going to ask someone who knows Greek better than I do to make sure I translated accurately.

Is it not important to make sure that the way you interpret it matches what is taught elsewhere in scripture? I can't even believe you basically jumped on me for merely pointing out that your translation of the verse contradicts what we see in Acts 10:43-48. What is wrong with my having pointed that out? Does your understanding of Acts 2:38 match what we see in Acts 10:43-48?

[amazzin]

This statement below is very important because we are allowing scripture to interpret scripture without the imperfections of man to get in the way

Is it not important to make sure that the way you interpret it matches what is taught elsewhere in scripture? I can't even believe you basically jumped on me for merely pointing out that your translation of the verse contradicts what we see in Acts 10:43-48. What is wrong with my having pointed that out? Does your understanding of Acts 2:38 match what we see in Acts 10:43-48?

[fewarechosen]

Because Peter is telling them to get baptized. It's something they needed to do and the only baptism that people do is water baptism. You don't tell people to get baptized by the Holy Spirit, it just happens when you are saved.

That isn't saying that there is literally only one baptism. You need to understand the context. The one baptism that verse is referring to is the one baptism that places people into the one body that the passage also mentions. And that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as water baptism as well.

so then again you are tying the baptism to the one people do, thats not in that scripture, why do you assume its saying get baptized by people and not Holy Spirit ?

also water baptism is not tied to remission of sins, if so John would have been forgiving sins

and on the second point we see different again, when scripture tells me one baptism i know its one baptism, i find people try to work their way around with - understand it in context, because then they can build up whatever contextual story they want to get around the fact scripture says there is one.


but scripture assures me in context there is one baptism

[markedward]

This statement below is very important because we are allowing scripture to interpret scripture without the imperfections of man to get in the way

Cross-referencing Scripture is obviously the most appropriate method of interpretation... but that still means we are making an interpretation of the one passage we use to interpret another passage.

I'm not saying I don't 'interpret Scripture with Scripture'. But that first requires (for me, at least, being an English-speaker) an accurate translation; otherwise I'm forcing the translation of Greek into English to fit my already-existing theology, rather than adapting my theology to an accurate translation.

Now, the Greek text I have puts 'repent and baptize' together. I'm not discounting the text you gave me because it is translated differently, but the fact that they are translated differently leads to the question of which one is closer to 'the original'?

I can't even believe you basically jumped on me for merely pointing out that your translation of the verse contradicts what we see in Acts 10:43-48.

I was not 'jumping' on you. There's no need to turn this into an argument.

What I had asked was whether the Greek text I provided was accurately translated as 'repent and be baptized', which amazzin confirmed. You claimed that my translation was wrong not because of the Greek text, but because of your already-existing theology. I was asking whether my translation from the Greek was accurate. It was, so let's move on.

Does your understanding of Acts 2:38 match what we see in Acts 10:43-48?

Well, that's what I'm working on here. I don't have a holistic understanding, so I'm trying to find one by exploring what Scripture says (as close to 'the original' text as I can get). What I presently see is this:

Acts 2.38 apparently has two Greek variants, one that has 'be baptized' as a part of the 'in the name of Jesus the Christ' statement, while the other has 'be baptized' was following being 'in the name of Jesus the Christ'.

Acts 10.43-48 has a group of Gentiles who already have received the holy spirit for their faith, but that they are then 'commanded' or 'assigned' to 'be baptized in the name of Jesus the Christ'. While they were evidently saved before their baptism, Peter still required it from them to do. Reading this through a cultural lens, we can easily consider that these Gentiles were ignorant of baptism, and so they saved despite their lack of baptism because they met 'the requirements' they were not ignorant of. Once Peter discovered their faith, he 'commands' them to then be baptized, bringing them into full accordance with what Peter taught in Acts 2.38 (regardless of which Greek text we follow). Either way, baptism is still depicted as something they must do.

So... 'what we see' in Acts 10.43-48 is not enough to determine whether baptism is a 'before' or 'after' salvation thing, and so we get back to Acts 2.38, as to which Greek text is the correct one: 'repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Christ for the forgiveness of sins', or 'repent in the name of Jesus the Christ, and be baptized'.

[fewarechosen]

one might repent their sin then believe on Christ/ people near jordan that john baptised then believed

one might believe on Christ then repent their sin/ woman who touched Christs garment/ lowered in bed/below

Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.


Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

[Slug1]

Is it not important to make sure that the way you interpret it matches what is taught elsewhere in scripture? I can't even believe you basically jumped on me for merely pointing out that your translation of the verse contradicts what we see in Acts 10:43-48. What is wrong with my having pointed that out? Does your understanding of Acts 2:38 match what we see in Acts 10:43-48?

Amen... lets also go to...

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”[c]

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

So... IF a person to be saved according to the "model" Peter preached, there MUST be the involvement of "repentance". That element is missing. In the Acts 10 scriptures, the element of a water Baptism is missing in the realization that those Peter was talking to were already "in" Christ through their belief.

In the Acts 10 scriptures, Peter led them to do their first act of their faith of a water baptism even though none of those present ever repented. In the Acts 8 scriptures, Philip led the eunuch (who still hasn't repented) to his water baptism.

Belief is the only element needed and those who believe, will be saved. If they also want to be forgiven of sin, then repent. If they also want to be in accordance to the model that Peter lays out in Acts 2, then repent AND get wet in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So was Peter's "model" faulty? Hardly... the model he preached were all elements OF the process that a person is to do... not TO BE saved, but because THEY ALREADY WILL BE SAVED due to their BELIEF in Jesus Christ. Once they will be saved, then they can repent and that repentance will be effective. A person who has not first BELIEVED, they can't effectively repent. Once they will be saved, then they can get wet. A person who has not first BELIEVED, they get wet but it's not a good work through their faith because, they don't have faith... YET.

Belief is all that is needed and as we see in so many scriptures that show us not all elements of Peter's model is not included... yet they are all eventually involved in the examples we read. When did Cornelius, his family and all his friends repent??? When did the eunuch repent?

Don't matter... they will be saved by their BELIEF in Christ.

[Butch5]

Lets make it clear from the get go then... water baptism is NOT a necessity for salvation.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When we divide scriptures then the TRUTH of the Word of God is made clear. Many in the Body of Christ say that water baptism is a necessity and they LITERALLY have to surgically cut the Mark 16:16 scripture in HALF... to make their point. That alone shows us that such a method of justifying a belief is through manipulation of God's Word. The devil tempted Jesus with "1/2" scriptures... using 1/2 scriptures to make a point to others is a tactic BORN of the devil or IOWs... FALSE DOCTRINE. When the scriptures are left WHOLE and divided with other scriptures to help us understand God's Truth... the false beliefs are exposed for what they are... FALSE.

OK, Firstly Slug1 Please stay on topic. I said the verse that was half quoted was to prove a point about the EFC’s “NOT” doctrine. So, you r statement here about false doctrine is misguided.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now divide John 3:5 with...

Ezekiel 36: 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Later, John the Baptist explains this in a way we can understand and that is that Jesus Baptizes people with "fire"... this is a person being indwelt with the Holy Spirit when they simply... BELIEVE in Jesus Christ. The instant that they believe in their heart and accept (declare) Jesus is the Son of God... they will be saved and they are officially Born-Again. Nothing is now stopping them from doing their first act or good work in faith with God. Get them WET, dunk em'!!!! In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The topic of being Born-Again really doesn't involve a "water" Baptism. It's about belief in and accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and then they "will be" saved. Evidence NEVER requires a "water" Baptism... just the same as evidence of a person who "will be" saved NEVER requires speaking in tongues. BOTH beliefs... that a person MUST be Baptized in water or the belief that a person MUST speak in tongues for them to be saved is on the SAME playing ground... both these beliefs are FALSE doctrines.

Evidence of being Born Again, once a person has believed and accepted Christ is through fruit, not action! Doing a water Baptism in an ACTION of ones faith, it is a GOOD WORK done in faith. Even those WITHOUT faith in Christ can do this action, so this fact alone shows us that the action of a WATER baptism CANNOT be used as evidence that one will be saved because they are in Christ.

Only those who believe and accept Christ CAN show fruit and evidence that they will be saved. A water Baptism isn't fruit, it's a good work and we all know that good works DON'T SAVE you.

Here are some scriptures about evidence (fruit) that shows others that a person's belief and acceptance of Christ as their Savior will show that they will be saved:

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[a] and the wicked one does not touch him.

OK Slug1 You’ve given us you opinion can you give us some Scripture. Can you show anything that teaches water baptism isn’t necessary? Can you show us where a person is “Born again” the moment they believe?
I’ll gladly have this discussion if you’ll leave out the arguments from silence and other fallacies.

[fewarechosen]

Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed,

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

the above man never got dunked in water, it even makes a point about water with the pool touched by angel, he got the warning about sin though/ repent

christ didnt heal him then tell him yea you gotta get dunked in water/h20 he did tell him to sin no more water/repentence.

[Butch5]

You need to exegete a passage in such a way that it agrees with all scripture. That's my point. You're asking whether or not your translation of Acts 2:38 is accurate, so that tells me you are acknowledging that it's difficult to translate and understand that verse, right? Is Acts 10:43-48 difficult to understand? Does it not clearly show people receiving the Spirit before being water baptized? I believe it does. Shouldn't our foundation start with clear scripture before tackling more difficult scripture?

Eric,

Scripture also tells the Christian not to fornicate yet,we see there was fornication in the Corinthian Church, using your line of reasoning we can condone that behavior correct?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

My position is that the new birth or being born against takes place during water baptism.

No, It is not hte act itself that saves, but God. I believe it is in the act of water baptism that God regenerates a man.

Baptism is a part of "The Faith" that saves. By "The Faith" I mean the gospel message of Christ, it is through faith in this that one is saved.

No, Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Belief is a prerequisite for baptism.

This is a good question, it has several answers. One consideration to take into account is that there is not a checklist in the NT for salvation. This is something many Christians don't seem to realize. Many think that whatever is necessary must be listed like a checklist every time salvation is mentioned, yet no one really communicates in that manner. For instance, when a parent tells a child to pick up his toys, does he/she list every single toy that needs to be picked up? No, they simply use a general term, pick up your toys. Likewise "The Faith" has many aspects, for instance, Paul says one is saved by grace through faith, he also says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and we are saved by hope. Peter said, baptism does now save us. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he who endures to the end shall be saved. So, you see, there are quite a few aspects to salvation. The argument that faith is necessary and baptism isn't because not all passages speak of baptism falls apart when we present a passage such as that from Paul, we are saved by hope. Paul says nothing in this passage about faith therefore the same argument made against baptism can be made against faith, thus nullifying the argument.

Another consideration is the context. For instance, baptism is not the context of many of those passages simply because there was not an issue with baptism it was accepted and part of salvation. Take Paul's letter to the Romans, particularly chapters 3 and 4 where he argues for faith. The context is whether or not the works of the Mosaic Law must be kept by Christians, Paul argues no. He says it is by faith not works of the Law that a man is justified. There is no reason to bring up the issue of baptism here, it has no bearing on his argument. He's writing a letter, I don't know of anyone who is going to write a list every of requirements time he writes faith. No one writes like that, who writes, you're justified by faith,(obedience, good works, calling on the name of the Lord, water baptism, hope, and enduring to the end) and not by works of the Law. for we know that a man is not justified by the Law in the sight of God but by faith, obedience, good works, calling on the name of the Lord, water baptism, hope, and enduring to the end. If then we are justified by faith obedience, good works, calling on the name of the Lord, water baptism, hope, and enduring to the end it is no more of works, but of faith, obedience, good works, calling on the name of the Lord, water baptism, hope, and enduring to the end.

Nobody writes like that, it's redundant. If we look at the Scriptures and learn what is included in "The Faith" we will know what Paul means when he says you are saved through faith. It is being saved through trusting in that Gospel "The Faith" that has been presented through Jesus and the apostles. So, there's no reason to expect to see a list checklist of requirements every time someone says faith, we should know what that includes from our studies in the Scriptures.


Another consideration that I think is of great importance and is often overlooked is who the writer is addressing. Is he addressing Christians or the Lost. For instance Jesus was mainly preaching to unbelievers. Paul's letters on the other hand are written to believers. There is no reason to expect Paul to give a point by point checklist to people who are already saved and know what is required for salvation. For instance, let's suppose you were going to instruct two men who to disassemble a newly designed engine. One man is an auto mechanic and has an understanding of how engines work the other man works in an office and has no understanding of engines. Wouldn't you instruction to these two men be very different? The auto mechanic would only require minimal instruction on the new aspects of the engine whereas the office worker would need extensive instruction. So, in Paul's letters to Christians we would only expect minimal information pertaining to issue where they might not be in complete understanding rather than an explanation of how a lost person come to know Christ.

Suppose i was teaching a Christian discipleship. This person was recently converted to Christ and I teach him that he must be obedient to Christ . Would anyone expect me to say, Ok, first you have to believe then you have to study you Bible. Then the next day I see him again and future his education. Would anyone expect me to say, first you need to believe, then you need to study your Bible, then you need to be baptism. Then the next day, first you need to believe, then you need to study your Bible, then you need to be baptized, then you need to produce good works. Wouldn't that be ridiculous? Do I really need to tell this Christ the he needs to believe every single time I teach him, or is it more likely that I know he already knows that and there for I go directly to the new teaching. I think the answer to this is obvious. So, why, if we don't do that, would we expect Paul to? He is addressing people in many cases who he has already been with and taught. There is no need for him to continually go over the same points again and again, especially when the already know them and have no problems with them. When you consider Paul's eyesight and what trouble it was to write back then one would only expect to see the new teaching, unless there was a problem with their understanding of the old.

I hope this helps explain it.

Absolutely and comprehensively brilliant summation and representation of truth. Perfectly said, Butch.

[Butch5]

Ok since this thread is getting out of hand let me pull it back. For Keyzer and anyone else who may be interested. We have the opinions of men who have drawn their conclusions and we have two men who were directly taught by apostles of Jesus Christ. We have Ignatius who was taught by the apostle John and ordained as bishop in the church at Antioch by the apostle Peter, we also have Clement of Rome who was Paul's traveling companion and is mentioned in Philippians 3 as having his name written in the book of life. Here is what they say about water baptism.

Ignatius quoting Paul

Ignatius appeals to Rom. 6:5
"Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection." (Ignatius, Epistle to th
e Trallians, II)


Clement Paul's companion,

For every cause of sin seems to be like tow smeared over with pitch, which immediately breaks into flame as soon as it receives the heat of fire; and the kindling of this fire is understood to be the work of demons. If, therefore, any one be found smeared with sins and lusts as with pitch, the fire easily gets the mastery of him. But if the tow be not steeped in the pitch of sin, but in the water of purification and regeneration, the fire of the demons shall not be able to be kindled in it.

Two men both personally knew the apostles, both connect the regeneration with water baptism.

Here are a few more.

Justin Martyr

Chap. LXI.—Christian Baptism. I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” (Isa. 1:16-20) And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Justin Martyr

Chap. LXVI.—Of the Eucharist.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.


Irenaeus Against Heresies

Chap. XXI.—The Views of Redemption Entertained by These Heretics.
1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of “redemption” as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

Irenaeus Against Heresies

And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them,” Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Theophilus of Antioch

Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men’s being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,—as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God

Tertullian,
Just as no soul is without sin, so neither is any soul without seeds of good. Therefore, when the soul embraces the faith, being renewed in its second birth by water and the power from above, then the veil of its former corruption being taken away, it beholds the light in all its brightness.

Hippolytus,
And as Tartarus, which is situated in a doleful and dark locality, is not touched by a ray of light, so is every one who is the slave of sin in all the passions of the flesh Like the earth not filled with water he is never able to come to confession, and to the laver of regeneration, and like water and fire, never says, “It is enough.”

Hippolytus
For her prow is the east, and her stern is the west, and her hold is the south, and her tillers are the two Testaments; and the ropes that stretch around her are the love of Christ, which binds the Church; and the net which she bears with her is the laver of the regeneration which renews the believing, whence too are these glories.

Cyprian,
For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, “He saved us by the washing of regeneration.” (Titus 3:5) But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ?

Cyprian,
14. But if the baptism of heretics can have the regeneration of the second birth, those who are baptized among them must be counted not heretics, but children of God. For the second birth, which occurs in baptism, begets sons of God.

Here Cyprian is arguing about an issue regarding the baptism of heretics. Notice that he acknowledges the second birth occurs in water baptism.

Lactantius,
and let him who lays his hands upon him adore God, the Lord of the whole world, and thank Him for His creation, for His sending Christ His only begotten Son, that He might save man by blotting out his transgressions, and that He might remit ungodliness and sins, and might “purify him from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,” (2 Cor. 7:1) and sanctify man according to the good pleasure of His kindness, that He might inspire him with the knowledge of His will, and enlighten the eyes of his heart to consider of His wonderful works, and make known to him the judgments of righteousness, that so he might hate every way of iniquity, and walk in the way of truth, that he might be thought worthy of the laver of regeneration, to the adoption of sons, which is in Christ, that “being planted together in the likeness of the death of Christ,” (Rom. 6:5) in hopes of a glorious communication, he may be mortified to sin, and may live to God, as to his mind, and word, and deed, and may be numbered together in the book of the living.

Lactantius,
that He has permitted that He should in all things become obedient to the laws of that incarnation, to preach the kingdom of heaven, the remission of sins, and the resurrection of the dead. Moreover, he adores the only begotten God Himself, after His Father, and for Him, giving Him thanks that He undertook to die for all men by the cross, the type of which He has appointed to be the baptism of regeneration.

The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
She said, Because it was thus appointed for me, and came to pass; but I beseech thee and fall at thy feet, seal me, as Paul seals, by the baptism of regeneration, so that even I, lowly one, may be known by our God, for the kind God, seeing my tribulation and distress, sent thee to pity me.

Origen,
Those persons in the Acts (Acts 19:2) who were baptized to John’s baptism and who had not heard if there was any Holy Ghost are baptized over again by the Apostle, Regeneration did not take place with John, but with Jesus through His disciples it does so, and what is called the layer of regeneration takes place with renewal of the Spirit;

Origen,
When the Little Ones Are Assigned to Angels. Then again one might inquire at what time those who are called their angels assume guardianship of the little ones pointed out by Christ; whether they received this commission to discharge concerning them, from what time “by the laver of regeneration,” (Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes, they long for the reasonable milk which is without guile,” (1 Peter 2:1) and no longer are in subjection to any wicked power;

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.” (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

And I said to him, “I should like to continue my questions.” “Speak on,” said he. And I said, “I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160
But there is no other [way] than this,—to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.
In refuting the Gnostics

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180

“And dipped himself,” says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.” (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (John 3:5)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195

Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228

Matthew alone adds the words “to repentance,” teaching that the benefit of baptism is connected with the intention of the baptized person; to him who repents it is salutary, but to him who comes to it without repentance it will turn to greater condemnation.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Pamohilius 309

Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.

These writings span the time from the apostles with Ignatius and Clement to the Council of Nicea. What do the Scriptures say? There are several to consider, Titus 3:5 says that God saved us through the "Bath" of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-5 ( KJV )
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Greek word translated "Washing" Is "Loutron" and means a bath. Paul is saying that God saved us through a bath. The only bath that I am aware of in Christianity is water baptism. Jesus said 'unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of heaven'. Here we have Paul basically saying the same thing with different words, He (God) saved us with the bath of regeneration (water baptism) and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (Spiritual baptism). We also see that it was at Jesus' baptism that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

Paul also speaks of this in Romans 6,


Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
This passage is claimed by many to be speaking of Spiritual baptism, however, this simply is not possible. One reason is that the grammar does not allow such an interpretation. Paul says that this baptism makes us partakers of the resurrection, so we need to make sure we understand what it is. The Greek word that is translated "Likeness" in this passage is the Greek word, "Homoioma". It means a representation or an image.

G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

A representation or image is something that can be seen with the eye. This baptism that Paul is speaking of is a visible baptism; it’s am image or representation of something. It is a visible representation of Spiritual baptism as we saw with Jesus baptism. He received the Spirit upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

There is another reason this passage cannot be speaking of Spiritual baptism. Paul said that the baptism in Romans 6 is a representation or an image. A representation or image is not the original, for instance, when one goes to the store and buys a picture of the Mona Lisa, they are not buying the original, only a representation or image of the original. If this baptism in Romans 6 was a Spiritual baptism, what is it a representation of? The original is not a representation of a copy. If union with the Holy Spirit is essential for the Christian to have life it must be the original, not the copy. Therefore there is no way that this passage can be speaking of Spiritual baptism simply because Paul said it is the representation of the original.

This fits nicely with what Peter said,


1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV )
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter equates Noah and the eight souls being saved in the Ark with baptism saving the Christian. He connects the baptism with water to show that it is water baptism, yet he says that it is not the water that actually saves. He says that it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. The believer with a good conscience goes into the waters of baptism and in that God gives an answer. It is the answer that saves but it is going into the water that is the request. This fits nicely with what Paul has stated, 'He (God) saved us through the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

There is also, Ephesians 5

Ephesians 5:23-27 ( KJV ) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Paul says that Christ may sanctify and cleanse the Church with the "Washing of Water" by the word. Many think that "The word" in this passage is Christ, however, Paul did not use the word "Logos" he use the word "rhema" which means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G4487 ῥῆμα rhēma Thayer Definition: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Basically the word means an utterance, a spoken word, a command. What command was given in the Christian faith regarding a washing or a bath? Mathew elaborates for us.

Matthew 28:19-20 ( KJV ) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is the "Washing of water with by the word". Also the Greek word translated by is the word "en" which is better translated "in" or "with". In this case, with, is the better translation.

I think it can be seen that there is much to what the Ante-Nicene Fathers have said about the importance of baptism. Their claims can be supported in Scripture. These men have said nothing different than the apostles regarding this issue. We've seen those who had direct contact, literally companions of the apsotles themselves connect water baptism with regeneration and the resurrection. We've seen those who followed say the same things. We've seen this is pretty universal in the church. I don't know that you'll find anyone teaching any differently within the church prior to AD 325. We've seen that this teaching covered at least the first 300 years of Christianity. That's some pretty good evidence. What has been presented by those who oppose this view? Opinions!

[Butch5]

Absolutely and comprehensively brilliant summation and representation of truth. Perfectly said, Butch.

Thanks my friend, I've just got to start rereading them before posting. Too many errors. lol

[percho]

Mark 10:17 Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Matt 19:16 Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Does Jesus equate inheriting eternal life to entering the kingdom of God?

Mark 10:23 How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luke 18:24 How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Matt 19:24 than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Was the water baptism of Jesus a picture of or the reality of the baptism Jesus spoke of in Luke 12:50?
Did the water baptism of Jesus fulfill all righteousness or was the baptism spoken of by Jesus in Luke 12:50 the baptism that fulfilled all righteousness?

Can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God? Can flesh and blood enter the kingdom of God?
Can one who was flesh and blood the day he died inherit/enter the kingdom of God?

Matt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

Is it imperative for us to be baptized with the above baptism in order to enter the kingdom of God?

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration

If one went through the baptism spoken of in Luke 12:50 and Matt 20:23 would he have followed Jesus in the regeneration?

[PJW]

Where in the bible does anybody "call on the name of the Lord"? Especially to be saved?
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)
It is evident that Paul went through the "usual" format for washing away sins as Peter taught in Acts 2:38.
In Romans 6, Paul lists the things brought about at baptism; "baptized into His death" (Ro 6:3)
"buried with Him by baptism" (Ro 6:4)
"that like as Christ was raised up from the deadby the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in
in newness of life" (Ro 6:4) That is the rebirth.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth
we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Ro 6:6-7)
The only true test of "this" or any doctrine is, are you free from sinning?
Does the alternate doctrine, "baptism not necessary", free you from sinning?
The baptism of fire is the end of the world.
Dear amazzin, How does "repentance" wash away your sins? Especially in light of Acts 22:16?
By the way, the thief on the cross was doing exactly what Romans 6 says baptism is. Crucifiction, and justified death with Christ.
Also, Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins. (Matt 9:6)
God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:32) If you still commit sin you don't have His Spirit, according to Peter.
Abraham was before the "law". "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law." (Romans 5:13)