What do (or don't) you believe in the Bible?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Agreed. Also, it seems to me that when Adam was created, he was created fully grown. Literally, he was a day old. But functionally, he was a grown man. I see no reason to think that the same could not be true of all of creation. That's not necessarily what I believe, but there are many ways to read Genesis and not have to believe in a young earth. I just stated one of them here.

The Omphalos Hypothesis (Aged Earth) is a YEC view. I hold to a Cosmological model that is a specific variant of it and is consistent with my understanding of the Rhema and Logos of God.

I'm also a proponent of Geocentricity.

[GitRDunn]

I'm also a proponent of Geocentricity.

Huh? How is this even possible? How do you explain the mountain of evidence to the contrary?

Edit: Sorry if this came off a little rough. I didn't mean to jump you, I was just shocked to hear you say that. I would not be surprised that there are a few people still around who believe everything revolves around the Earth, I just didn't expect you to be one of them. Could you explain what lead you to this belief?

[BrckBrln]

I'm also a proponent of Geocentricity.

What is that?

.....

[Jemand]

Jesus said that Moses wrote the Penteteuch.

Jesus never actually said that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but he did seem to attribute at least parts of it to Moses. The closest statement that he made to Moses having written the Pentateuch is found in John 5:46.


46. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.” (NASB, 1995)

Most scholars who are moderate or liberal in their theology do not believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch; they believe that it is a composite work written by four or more authors and that what we now have in our Bibles is the final redaction of that composite work, the final redaction having been finished centuries after the death of Moses. Even some of today’s conservative scholars acknowledge that if Moses wrote the Pentateuch, he relied upon written sources to write it. This view is based upon the fact that literary analysis, by and of itself, very strongly suggests more than one author based mostly upon differences in the vocabulary and writing style of the various parts of the books in the Pentateuch. The issue, from the perspective of literary analysis, is extremely complicated.

[Jemand]

The Omphalos Hypothesis (Aged Earth) is a YEC view. I hold to a Cosmological model that is a specific variant of it and is consistent with my understanding of the Rhema and Logos of God.

I'm also a proponent of Geocentricity.

Are you also a member of The Flat Earth Society (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ ), or are you inconsistent in your interpretation of the Bible?

[GitRDunn]

What is that?

.....

Geocentricity is the belief that everything revolves around the Earth (including the sun). What is generally accepted today is a heliocentric solar system, which means everything orbits the sun.

[BrckBrln]

Geocentricity is the belief that everything revolves around the Earth (including the sun). What is generally accepted today is a heliocentric solar system, which means everything orbits the sun.

Yeah, I thought he must have meant something else.

[GitRDunn]

Yeah, I thought he must have meant something else.

Perhaps something else was meant, and if that is the case, I apologize for misunderstanding Pneuma.

[ChristianCoffee]

I have this problem too.

It's not that I CAN'T believe that parts of the bible is true even if 6 day creation isn't...

It's just that it suddenly makes it all so much less holy, so much more human (erroneous).

And it opens up a can of worms. Then, as soon as something in the Bible doesn't sit right with me, I can just say "well it's probably the same as with Creation - not intended to be taken literally". And then it won't be long until you have what is known in some languages as "liberalteologi" - A kind of humanism with a teaspoon of Jesus thrown in.

Either a book intends to depict real events, it is fiction, or maybe deliberate proganda.
I want to see the bible as falling into the "real event" category. Fiction is great, but it's not something you change your life for.

Hannah, here is how I personally approach this issue in my own life:

I personally believe in a 6 day creation (young earth). However, it would not suprise me if the earth is much older. There is honestly no where in the Bible that gives the age of the earth. I believe in young earth because I take 6 days to be 6 earth days: however, what is time to God? How can we really understand when He lives outside of time, and He was the one who created time. Believing in young or old earth should not make you question the validity of the Bible. There are things we as Christians (and non-Christians) debate with each other because we just cannot understand it in total unless we receive a direct revelation from God Himself. There are things in His Word we must accept on faith. I did not physically see the Risen Christ, but I have seen His amazing works in my life. I have not seen the Flood of the O.T., but I have seen (studied) the evidence suggesting that it is a real event.

I want to see the bible as falling into the "real event" category. Fiction is great, but it's not something you change your life for.

I have to tell you, the Bible, in it's entirity is the real and true Word of God. It is not an act of fiction (like many other cults have). It is supported by evidence for those who are willing to look for it. Jesus is real: as I said, I only have to look to my own life to know that. There is no way I could have made the changes in my life unless I had the power of the Holy Spirit inside of me, which I know is a gift from God Himself. And I do not see how, over the millennia that has passed, an act of fiction (as many have said the Bible is) could have withstood the tests that the Bible has been put to unless it is from God. Look at the other major religions today: how many of their holy books are under the scrunity that the Bible has been for almost 2,000 years? How many of those books could have stood up under what man, in his limited ability to understand things, have put it through.

I tell you the truth, I do not believe a single one could have stood like the Bible has. I believe that the Bible is the unerringly account of a God that so loved His created world, that He not only gave us free will to do as we wish, but He also gave us an out to join Him by the Blood of His Son.

There are many things I do not understand about the Bible in my own limited knowledge. But I can understand this: that because of my faith in God, and in my faith that Jesus Christ died for me (now I could think of many others He may have been better off saving ), and the fact that my life is totally changed, my faith in Him is stronger each day. And that is really what this is all about. Young earth, old earth, pre/mid/post tribulation, verbal donkies and big fish that keep people alive in their bellies aside, at the end of the day, it is what you believe in. Small points are fine for debates, in fact people make alot of money doing just that. And it can be fun. But always remember, Christ died for you. You accept that, you open the door for His knock, and everything else is just a wonderful thing we can believe.

Because if He can love you and I so much He would send His Son to die for us, He can do anything.


In Him,
CC

Romans 8:16

[glad4mercy]

I have this problem too.

It's not that I CAN'T believe that parts of the bible is true even if 6 day creation isn't...

It's just that it suddenly makes it all so much less holy, so much more human (erroneous).

And it opens up a can of worms. Then, as soon as something in the Bible doesn't sit right with me, I can just say "well it's probably the same as with Creation - not intended to be taken literally". And then it won't be long until you have what is known in some languages as "liberalteologi" - A kind of humanism with a teaspoon of Jesus thrown in.

Either a book intends to depict real events, it is fiction, or maybe deliberate proganda.
I want to see the bible as falling into the "real event" category. Fiction is great, but it's not something you change your life for.

Hannah, I do not believe that any part of the Bible is fiction. The Creation account is not fiction. What part of the creation account do you have trouble with? Is it the fact that the universe appears to be old? Adam was created with the appearance of age, he was not created an infant, an embroyo, or a fetus, he was created a full grown man. The animals, the trees, etc, were also created fully developed, bearing seed within themselves. If living things were created with the appearance of age, perhaps non living things were too. Maybe the universe looks like it developed over billions of years, but in reality it developed much faster because of the supernatural power of God that formed it, ( I believe that He created matter first and then formed it)

Why is it hard to believe in a talking serpent? The serpent wasnt talking, it was satan who was talking through the serpent. The same thing with Balaam's donkey. I don't think it was the donkey who was talking, it was God. This falls into the realm of miracles. The parting of the Red Sea? No problem for God. Think about it. Whether God created the world in six days or six ages, ( I hold to the former), the very act of creating all of this, creating the stars, and the natural laws, the human body, the eye, the egg, DNA, and life itself, compared to all that the parting of the Red Sea would be effortless, don't you think? Feeding the five thousand? Why would the God who created matter have any problem doing whatever he pleased with it? If a person believes in creation, it should be no problem in believing in other miracles.

Please let me know what it is about the Bible in general and the creation account in particular that you are having problems believing, and I will try to provide some resources that may help you.

[glad4mercy]

Jesus never actually said that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but he did seem to attribute at least parts of it to Moses. The closest statement that he made to Moses having written the Pentateuch is found in John 5:46.


46. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.” (NASB, 1995)

Most scholars who are moderate or liberal in their theology do not believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch; they believe that it is a composite work written by four or more authors and that what we now have in our Bibles is the final redaction of that composite work, the final redaction having been finished centuries after the death of Moses. Even some of today’s conservative scholars acknowledge that if Moses wrote the Pentateuch, he relied upon written sources to write it. This view is based upon the fact that literary analysis, by and of itself, very strongly suggests more than one author based mostly upon differences in the vocabulary and writing style of the various parts of the books in the Pentateuch. The issue, from the perspective of literary analysis, is extremely complicated.

I respectfully disagree with those who say Moses didnt write the Penteteuch. Here are my reasons.

Matthew 8:4- And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Mark 7:10- 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'

Luke 20:37- But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'

Luke 24:44- Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

All of these quotes are from Jesus Himself, of Whom the Father said, " ...this is my beloved Son, hear Him"

As far as Moses using other sources to write the Penteteuch, that presents no problem. Luke used sources to write His Gospel, and the books of the New Testament quote the writings of the Old Testament. Moses was inspired and directed by God what to write, and what sources to use.

[Brother Mark]

The Omphalos Hypothesis (Aged Earth) is a YEC view. I hold to a Cosmological model that is a specific variant of it and is consistent with my understanding of the Rhema and Logos of God.

You are correct. My post wasn't that clear. My point was to show that one could hold to a literal belief in Genesis and still acknowledge that science might show that the earth appeared old. There are multiple ways to read Genesis literally and still allow room for science to show the earth is or appears old.

[glad4mercy]

...one could hold to a literal belief in Genesis and still acknowledge that science might show that the earth appeared old. There are multiple ways to read Genesis literally and still allow room for science to show the earth is or appears old.

I agree with you on this Brother Mark. I didnt realize that you had mentioned Adam and the appearance of age until I went back and read some of the posts I missed. I think that this is a strong and valid point.

[TrustGzus]

In the poll, I selected that I believe all of the Bible. That being said, I think some of the points that could be checked are ambiguous. I already mentioned that the OT doesn't say "six 24-hour days" in Hebrew. It reads six yoms. 24-hour days is an interpretation. I do believe God created in six yoms. The Bible never says how old the universe is in regard to the next option to check off. And the last one about Revelation's visions being future. To John and the recipients of his writing, it was nearly all future, but that doesn't mean it's all future to us today. No matter what your view of Revelation is, at some point, all of it goes from the future to the past.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Huh? How is this even possible? How do you explain the mountain of evidence to the contrary?

Yes, I knew it would draw criticism, especially from TEs. :-)

Edit: Sorry if this came off a little rough. I didn't mean to jump you, I was just shocked to hear you say that. I would not be surprised that there are a few people still around who believe everything revolves around the Earth, I just didn't expect you to be one of them. Could you explain what lead you to this belief?

I began to challenge my own high level of scientific concordism, and I've become skeptical of a number of fundamental areas of purported empiricism. It would take quite a lengthy explanation to summarize, but it was actually the science "side" that prompted it for me after conversations with a few PhDs.