Longbows

[A Seeker]

A long time ago, on a board thread far, far away...

But we digress. Start me on longbows you'd need a whole new thread.

Why don't you do one? I'd be interested to learn about that subject from an actual user.

Oky dokey then.

If you have a bit of time, a bit of patience, and a very small amount of skill, you could make and own your very own, virtually authentic, ELB (English long bow).

A longbow is a bow with a single curve, as opposed to most modern and horsebows where the limbs recurve at the tips. There are other qualifications, materials, nocks, shape etc, but generally its just a bent stick. And bent sticks are EASY.

You can make one from virtually any wood. The very best are made from yew, and a stave (the stick before you make it into a bow) can set you back $300. During the hundred years war there was a law that ANY ship wishing to trade in an English port had to supply a number of these yew staves and EVERY person had to shoot on sunday. In fact, later on, all other sports were BANNED on sunday to force people to practice.

The last bow I made however, was made of a piece of pine from the DIY store which cost me all of £4. And it shoots just fine.

What else. Well, recurve bows tend to weigh at about 30 - 40lbs for a man and 20 - 30 for a woman. Compound bows, the modern ones with all the knobs and whistles, often measure higher because the design means you're not actually holding that strain at full draw. Longbows, although one can make them at any weight, tend to measure up much heavier. 60, 70 or 80 lb draws are common and most people cannot physically draw much past 60 on an ELB. The bows of the time started at about 110 and went up much, much heavier. The difference might seem small but as anyone who does weights knows, an extra 10 or 20 lbs can make a lot of difference.

Modern archers pull to the nose or mouth (as a rule). Longbow archers pull to the ear or jaw. This adds another 3 or 4 inches to your draw but means that you cannot sight down the arrow because you are pulling to beside your eyes rather than in front of them.

Its all great fun. If anyone is interested, I'll do a build along with the next one I make. They really are fun to make and shooting with something you've made from a block of wood is sublimely satisfying.

[Brother Mark]

A long time ago, on a board thread far, far away...

I would be interested for sure!

(Side note: Amazing how the laws change over time. Use to, England wanted their people armed. Now they don't. We see the same thing happening in the US.)

[A Seeker]

Not just wanted. Required! It was a horrible shock to the French. Warfare used to be very much like the football world cup (that's soccer to you ). You had a team of highly trained professionals, the best you could afford, you took em to the continent, played them against their team, and the losers got ransomed (that's where the analogy falls down).

Then we trained up a few thousand hairy a**** peasants, gave em bent sticks and pointy sticks, and wiped the opposing team out before they so much as reached our team!! In terms of football it would the equivalent of the fans joining in the game!!

Worked three times before they figured it out!

It would have kept working, but the systems which kept people armed and trained slipped by the wayside. The duke of Wellington wanted a corps of longbowmen in the napoleonic wars. They would have been devasting against the unarmoured enemy armed with muskets. Similar range and far, far better rate of fire! Unfortunately it takes years to train a bowman and hours to train a gunman so...

I'll take some photos the next time I make one. I've been making kiddie sized ones which are easy and cheap and can be done in under an hour! Pull about 15 - 20 lbs which is perfect for kids up to about 13 or 14.

Their is some interesting physics involved as well.

[Brother Mark]

The long bow changed war fare in much the same way that guns did... at least that's what I vaguely remember being taught.

[A Seeker]

It is a beautiful weapon. But the impact of the weapon has been somewhat overplayed IMO . The real game changer was the way it was used and the people who used it.

There were 6 major battles of the hundred years war. We creamed them in the first three. But by then the French figured out the tactics and we lost the next 3. After that, we just did not have the numbers of trained archers :-/ .

But it Is still a beautiful elegant groundbreaking weapon. In gun terms it's the ak47.

[Brother Mark]

It is a beautiful weapon. But the impact of the weapon has been somewhat overplayed IMO . The real game changer was the way it was used and the people who used it.

But isn't that almost always the case? If I remember rightly, as a single unit, it's not that big a deal and really not that accurate. But when you have a multitude of archers that can throw arrows up into the sky, it changes everything.

There were 6 major battles of the hundred years war. We creamed them in the first three. But by then the French figured out the tactics and we lost the next 3. After that, we just did not have the numbers of trained archers :-/ .

Well, all countries lose their stomach for the cost of battle/preparation/cost at some point. Even in the US there is a constant battle over how to use our resources. It happens.

But it Is still a beautiful elegant groundbreaking weapon. In gun terms it's the ak47.

LOL! Interesting comparison.

[Slug1]

I have a recurve bow that my uncle gave me once he turned 60. He really can't deal with the weight of the pull any longer. I asked him how much is it and he just laughed. He's never gauged it but said it was like bending a 2x4 back.

When I got the bow in the mail and strung it... it feels like trying to bend a 2x4

Great bow... I plan to practice this year ALOT with it.

He said that every deer he killed with it, the arrows were ALWAYS a pass-through to include one that turned and the arrow entered the rear and went clear through the deer exiting the chest.

[Reynolds357]

A long time ago, on a board thread far, far away...





Oky dokey then.

If you have a bit of time, a bit of patience, and a very small amount of skill, you could make and own your very own, virtually authentic, ELB (English long bow).

A longbow is a bow with a single curve, as opposed to most modern and horsebows where the limbs recurve at the tips. There are other qualifications, materials, nocks, shape etc, but generally its just a bent stick. And bent sticks are EASY.

You can make one from virtually any wood. The very best are made from yew, and a stave (the stick before you make it into a bow) can set you back $300. During the hundred years war there was a law that ANY ship wishing to trade in an English port had to supply a number of these yew staves and EVERY person had to shoot on sunday. In fact, later on, all other sports were BANNED on sunday to force people to practice.

The last bow I made however, was made of a piece of pine from the DIY store which cost me all of £4. And it shoots just fine.

What else. Well, recurve bows tend to weigh at about 30 - 40lbs for a man and 20 - 30 for a woman. Compound bows, the modern ones with all the knobs and whistles, often measure higher because the design means you're not actually holding that strain at full draw. Longbows, although one can make them at any weight, tend to measure up much heavier. 60, 70 or 80 lb draws are common and most people cannot physically draw much past 60 on an ELB. The bows of the time started at about 110 and went up much, much heavier. The difference might seem small but as anyone who does weights knows, an extra 10 or 20 lbs can make a lot of difference.

Modern archers pull to the nose or mouth (as a rule). Longbow archers pull to the ear or jaw. This adds another 3 or 4 inches to your draw but means that you cannot sight down the arrow because you are pulling to beside your eyes rather than in front of them.

Its all great fun. If anyone is interested, I'll do a build along with the next one I make. They really are fun to make and shooting with something you've made from a block of wood is sublimely satisfying.

I used to shoot them. All I can say is thank God for the modern compound.

[A Seeker]

But isn't that almost always the case? If I remember rightly, as a single unit, it's not that big a deal and really not that accurate. But when you have a multitude of archers that can throw arrows up into the sky, it changes everything.

Yep. Thats the origin of the word artillery. Comes from the french "Arc tirer" (to pull the bow.) And thats pretty much how it was used.

Having said that, don't get the idea it wasn't also accurate! A medieval archer could "prick an oyster" (hit a hand sized target) at 100 yards! Once a battle closed to melee an archer was quite capable of picking targets and sniping.

LOL! Interesting comparison.

Well, I'm no expert on guns. But so far as I understand the AK is a rugged, cheap, reliable weapon which is flexible for a variety of roles. Its cheap to make and cheap to maintain and has a minimum of moving parts. Whilst there are other weapons which surpass it in specific areas, if you have £10,000 and unlimited manpower and can buy as many all rounder rifles as you can afford for them, you'd be hard pressed to do better (I suspect)

[A Seeker]

I have a recurve bow that my uncle gave me once he turned 60. He really can't deal with the weight of the pull any longer. I asked him how much is it and he just laughed. He's never gauged it but said it was like bending a 2x4 back.

When I got the bow in the mail and strung it... it feels like trying to bend a 2x4

Great bow... I plan to practice this year ALOT with it.

He said that every deer he killed with it, the arrows were ALWAYS a pass-through to include one that turned and the arrow entered the rear and went clear through the deer exiting the chest.

Easy enough to measure! Get a luggage scale and use that to pull the string back. Then get a friend to read the number. I'm not a small guy but 70lb is about my maximum if I want the arrow to go anywhere near where I shoot it. And to think they could do double that back in the day! Incredible.

If you want to shoot longbow, don't try to shoot it like a recurve or compound. You have to "lay your body into the bow". You use your front hand to push as much as your back hand to pull, and much of the power comes from your back and legs rather than your arms.

my technique is not the best in the world, but this might give you a vague idea. Note the leg position. Also note that the string hand stays almost still and the whole body pushes the bow hand forward. This was the first 70lber I ever made and one of the first times I shot it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-2Ld...2&feature=plcp

[A Seeker]

I used to shoot them. All I can say is thank God for the modern compound.

Its a better weapon. More accurate, more consistent, more compact, and you can pimp it out with all the knobs and whistles to make it even better. Up to and including laser sights for goodness sake! Also, you know that its not going to break, whiplash around, and embed itself in your head (which is always a possibility with wood).

Each to their own. But for me, if I was interested in maximum accuracy and power, I'd buy a crossbow! For me, the point of archery is making life HARDER for yourself, not easier. Its more primal!

I do occasionally enjoy a shoot with a compound though. Just to see how the other half live

[Adstars]

A long time ago, on a board thread far, far away...





Oky dokey then.

If you have a bit of time, a bit of patience, and a very small amount of skill, you could make and own your very own, virtually authentic, ELB (English long bow).

A longbow is a bow with a single curve, as opposed to most modern and horsebows where the limbs recurve at the tips. There are other qualifications, materials, nocks, shape etc, but generally its just a bent stick. And bent sticks are EASY.

You can make one from virtually any wood. The very best are made from yew, and a stave (the stick before you make it into a bow) can set you back $300. During the hundred years war there was a law that ANY ship wishing to trade in an English port had to supply a number of these yew staves and EVERY person had to shoot on sunday. In fact, later on, all other sports were BANNED on sunday to force people to practice.

The last bow I made however, was made of a piece of pine from the DIY store which cost me all of £4. And it shoots just fine.

What else. Well, recurve bows tend to weigh at about 30 - 40lbs for a man and 20 - 30 for a woman. Compound bows, the modern ones with all the knobs and whistles, often measure higher because the design means you're not actually holding that strain at full draw. Longbows, although one can make them at any weight, tend to measure up much heavier. 60, 70 or 80 lb draws are common and most people cannot physically draw much past 60 on an ELB. The bows of the time started at about 110 and went up much, much heavier. The difference might seem small but as anyone who does weights knows, an extra 10 or 20 lbs can make a lot of difference.

Modern archers pull to the nose or mouth (as a rule). Longbow archers pull to the ear or jaw. This adds another 3 or 4 inches to your draw but means that you cannot sight down the arrow because you are pulling to beside your eyes rather than in front of them.

I think in those times the longbow archers did not shoot at individual targets. They where massed on the battle field and fired volleys of arrows onto formations of enemy troops. So they could pull back to the ear and get that extra power and range without the need for pinpoint accuracy. all they had to do was ensure that the allow landed within an area.

[Brother Mark]

Having said that, don't get the idea it wasn't also accurate! A medieval archer could "prick an oyster" (hit a hand sized target) at 100 yards! Once a battle closed to melee an archer was quite capable of picking targets and sniping.

Wow! Are you sure about this? That would seem incredible to me. Not that the bow or the archer wouldn't have the ability, but the arrow making would have to be very precise. The weight would have to be the same, the diameter the same, the feathering the same, the arrow head the same shape, weight, size, etc. If the arrows are different by just a fraction, it would make a huge difference in accuracy at 100 yards.

Modern compounds only recently have been able to shoot that far with that kind of accuracy.

IOW, are you sure that wasn't military propaganda designed to scare the enemy? It's impressive if true, and impressive propaganda if not.
'

[A Seeker]

Hard to be sure. A few things to bear in mind. One is that the bows, and arrows, were an awful lot heavier than modern ones so there was less variance from wind etc. Another is that whilst archery today is a hobby, back then it was a living. Thousands of people practicing thousands of hours, the standard would be exponentially higher than it is now. Be like comparing weekend paintballers to professional soldiers. Even so I suspect that the pricking an oyster thing was not typical, but It is certainly possible.

Popinjay shooting was a form of longbow competition in which archers would attempt to hit a small wooden bird atop a tower, usually a church tower or castle battlement. People hit them all the time (be a boring event else) and they can be nudging on for 50 yards plus. Also, they're up in the air which makes it exponentially harder. If we can still do that today, and we're only playing, I imagine that being twice as accurate is quite possible.

Longbow shooting comes in two main forms. Target shooting and clout shooting. Clout shooting is where you try to drop your arrow on the flag, or as near as you can get. Target shooting is what we know today. We know the medieval archer trained extensively in both, and that he used the bow for hunting (and you can't artillery shoot a deer or a pigeon) so I think its a fair bet they were pretty darned accurate. It would make no sense to train only in artillery shooting. Remember these were highly paid (for the time) professionals. How good would you be at bowling if you practiced 4 hours a day, every day for your adult life? And was also the only sport you had as a child?


We know in war they shot en masse, but also that they could "snipe". I have a few good textbooks, I'll see if I can find some contemporary evidence.

[A Seeker]

I'm now inspired to go play with my wood.