What Does Your Church Teach?

[VerticalReality]

I do not believe God puts sickness on His obedient children, but He may allow it, just as God does not tempt anyone, but He allows us to be tempted and tried in order to strengthen our faith, and develop patience and endurance. When He has tried me, I shall come forth like gold. (Job) What comforts me is that sickness does not last forever.

My mother died of a stroke in 1997. I prayed for God to heal her and even claimed it. When the doctor pronounced her dead, I even prayed that God would raise her from the dead, believing that God could do so if He chose. He did not heal her or raise her from the dead. At that point, I could have gotten upset, discouraged and wondered why God hadnt answered my prayers, and even gotten mad at God or I could have taken comfort that my mother was saved, in heaven and that I would see her again. I chose the latter. Should I have questioned my own faith, because God didnt heal my mother?

On another front, unrelated to my mother, when the leper in Matthew 8 said "Lord if you are willing you can heal me." Jesus did not say I am willing but I will not heal you, because you question my will, He said "I will, be cleansed." This shows that the words " God if you are willing" do not indicate unbelief, nor do they necessarily hinder healing. Unbelief is when you know God's Will and question it. When someone is sick, we have no way of knowing if God intends to heal or to call that person home. We all die sooner or later, unless we get to be alive when Jesus returns. I look at going to heaven as complete and total healing.

I think that passage is indicating that the Lord is willing. I find it interesting that we have documentation stating that He is willing but never any stating He isn't.

[Brother Mark]

I'm not following you. Are you saying that a person should take medication or have surgery to circumvent God's will?

No. What I am saying is that your premise is wrong. Paul told Timothy to take alcohol for his stomachs sake. Job scraped his sores. We do what we can do and endure the testing. When the test is over, healing will come. Scraping, medication, etc. is part of the things we do to keep from being infected.

The whole straw man of "take medicine to avoid God's will" is silly talk VR. You can do much better than that. I know this topic frustrates you. But such examples won't win the person or the argument.

For instance, you are under a curse and are going to die. Why eat so as to avoid God's will? That's a straw man argument. My body is the temple of the Lord. I am to take care of it by using medicine, exercise, eating, etc. That doesn't mean the Lord will not test me by allowing illness as he did with Job.

[Brother Mark]

I think that passage is indicating that the Lord is willing. I find it interesting that we have documentation stating that He is willing but never any stating He isn't.

Sometimes it's about timing. Remember the man healed at the temple at the gate called beautiful? That word "beautiful" means "at the right time". His parents put him there every day. How many times was this man passed by and not healed? I don't know, but at the gate called beautiful (at the right time) he was healed miraculously!

Miracles do happen. I believe they are for today. However, I think we do a grave disservice to those who die of illness and their families and to those going through testing when we say "if only you had more faith, this would not happen".

Elisha settled it for me. He died of a disease. Then his very bones caused a slave to rise again. He went out in the same glory Elijah did and his servant said "Behold the horsemen of Israel". It was just his time to go. God never said otherwise about it.

[Caleb]

Not discerning the body in The Lords supper does not make one sick. They remain sick because the do not discern the healing provided them through the bruising of The Lord's body.
Anninias and Saphira did not get sick, they got killed.

It says nothing about 'remaining sick'?

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

[Caleb]

How do you pray for something "in faith" if you have no confidence of what God's will is in the situation?

Having faith in believing that God can do is not in question, but the having faith that it is His will to do this thing.

If you say that you have faith to pray for this persons healing, then there must be works as evidence of your faith or it is dead faith. We often see in the gospels and epistles, that it was the faith of Christ and the apostles that healed the people. Many came believing that Jesus and the apostle had the authority to heal the sick and often that was all that was required.

Faith comes by hearing, and that is being led by the Spirit.

[VerticalReality]

No. What I am saying is that your premise is wrong. Paul told Timothy to take alcohol for his stomachs sake. Job scraped his sores. We do what we can do and endure the testing. When the test is over, healing will come. Scraping, medication, etc. is part of the things we do to keep from being infected.

That doesn't make sense to me. According to this point of view God is putting sickness on a believer to test his faith or something. If God was okay with us taking medication during such testing then why wouldn't He just place just enough sickness on us so we could endure without medication? Why would God be okay with us trying to lighten the affliction He has placed on us?

The whole straw man of "take medicine to avoid God's will" is silly talk VR. You can do much better than that. I know this topic frustrates you. But such examples won't win the person or the argument.

Brother Mark, I think you are mistaken here. I'm not frustrated in the least. As a matter of fact, I'm very collected on the matter. I also do not see it as a straw man argument. You are saying that it is God's will for the believer to be sick, correct? So, that is not a straw man. If you are saying it is God's will for the believer to be sick then I think the question is legitimate. Why would God want a believer to try and lessen His affliction if the affliction is for an intended purpose? Where exactly is the straw man?

For instance, you are under a curse and are going to die. Why eat so as to avoid God's will?

Since when is it God's will that we die? God has gone through quite a bit to give us everlasting life. Death is not God's fault. He is not the author of it.

That doesn't mean the Lord will not test me by allowing illness as he did with Job.

My bible says it was Satan's will that Job suffer with illness. Personally, I think you are viewing God allowing something as it being His will, and that is just not a correct viewpoint. If you want to go that route then our sin is God's will because He has allowed it.

[VerticalReality]

Sometimes it's about timing. Remember the man healed at the temple at the gate called beautiful? That word "beautiful" means "at the right time". His parents put him there every day. How many times was this man passed by and not healed? I don't know, but at the gate called beautiful (at the right time) he was healed miraculously!

So, you're assuming he wasn't healed simply because it wasn't God's will?

Miracles do happen. I believe they are for today. However, I think we do a grave disservice to those who die of illness and their families and to those going through testing when we say "if only you had more faith, this would not happen".

Brother Mark, in the post prior you accused me of being frustrated about this topic. Pardon me for saying so, but it appears you are the one frustrated here. You are going in directions that have not be insinuated, and you seem to have a personal investment in this topic that could be clouding your viewpoint. Forgive me for saying so, but your responses are reading that way.

Elisha settled it for me. He died of a disease. Then his very bones caused a slave to rise again. He went out in the same glory Elijah did and his servant said "Behold the horsemen of Israel". It was just his time to go. God never said otherwise about it.

God also never said what you appear to be assuming. Elisha dying of a disease does not also say that such a thing was God's will. The last I checked Jesus came to take the power of death from Satan and not His Father.

[Reynolds357]

It says nothing about 'remaining sick'?

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

"For this cause many are." It did not say "for this cause many become."

[Brother Mark]

That doesn't make sense to me. According to this point of view God is putting sickness on a believer to test his faith or something. If God was okay with us taking medication during such testing then why wouldn't He just place just enough sickness on us so we could endure without medication? Why would God be okay with us trying to lighten the affliction He has placed on us?



Brother Mark, I think you are mistaken here. I'm not frustrated in the least. As a matter of fact, I'm very collected on the matter. I also do not see it as a straw man argument. You are saying that it is God's will for the believer to be sick, correct? So, that is not a straw man. If you are saying it is God's will for the believer to be sick then I think the question is legitimate. Why would God want a believer to try and lessen His affliction if the affliction is for an intended purpose? Where exactly is the straw man?



Since when is it God's will that we die? God has gone through quite a bit to give us everlasting life. Death is not God's fault. He is not the author of it.



My bible says it was Satan's will that Job suffer with illness. Personally, I think you are viewing God allowing something as it being His will, and that is just not a correct viewpoint. If you want to go that route then our sin is God's will because He has allowed it.

I never said it was God's will Corey. You did and read that into it. What I said was that God would use sickness to test us, just as he did with Job. Nothing has changed about that.

It was God's will for David to be king, but not until Saul was dead. In the mean time, David was tested and he had to live in caves.

God eventually healed Job revealing his will was beyond the testing.

[Brother Mark]

So, you're assuming he wasn't healed simply because it wasn't God's will?

I am saying the timing had everything to do with God's will. A man was born blind, not because he had sinned or even that his parents had sinned. But he was born blind and spent years being blind, so that God could be glorified in his healing. Why did God wait to heal him after he was a grown man?

Brother Mark, in the post prior you accused me of being frustrated about this topic. Pardon me for saying so, but it appears you are the one frustrated here. You are going in directions that have not be insinuated, and you seem to have a personal investment in this topic that could be clouding your viewpoint. Forgive me for saying so, but your responses are reading that way.

I suggested it frustrated you because this topic comes up over and over again with you. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry.

God also never said what you appear to be assuming. Elisha dying of a disease does not also say that such a thing was God's will. The last I checked Jesus came to take the power of death from Satan and not His Father.

Nothing suggest that Elisha should have lived longer. When he died, he went out exactly like Elijah, except that Elijah did not die. The horsemen of Israel came to get both. They went out in the same glory.

Elijah certainly had faith. He had anointing. He had experienced the miraculous. Yet, he died by a disease. I see no reason in scripture that disease is the wrong way to die.

[VerticalReality]

I never said it was God's will Corey. You did and read that into it. What I said was that God would use sickness to test us, just as he did with Job. Nothing has changed about that.

The problem with that view is that God didn't use it . . . Satan did. Again, saying that Job's sickness was God's will is the same as saying our sin was His will as well. By the way, my question was why would a believer take medication if it's God's will that they be sick. You responded to that question refuting it as if you do believe this. That is why I was going with the notion that you believe God's will does direct sickness on a believer.

[VerticalReality]

I am saying the timing had everything to do with God's will.

Why do you assume God's will had anything to do with it?

A man was born blind, not because he had sinned or even that his parents had sinned. But he was born blind and spent years being blind, so that God could be glorified in his healing. Why did God wait to heal him after he was a grown man?

Because the vessel God used was not around yet.

I suggested it frustrated you because this topic comes up over and over again with you. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry.

Comes up over and over again? Perhaps you may need to reference my most recent posts. I haven't discussed this topic in quite some time. Besides, even if I did discuss this topic often, just doing so does not mean I'm frustrated. Where in my posts do I give that impression?

Nothing suggest that Elisha should have lived longer. When he died, he went out exactly like Elijah, except that Elijah did not die. The horsemen of Israel came to get both. They went out in the same glory.

Elijah certainly had faith. He had anointing. He had experienced the miraculous. Yet, he died by a disease. I see no reason in scripture that disease is the wrong way to die.

You didn't really address my statement. Do the scriptures proclaim Elisha's situation as being God's will?

[Brother Mark]

The problem with that view is that God didn't use it . . . Satan did. Again, saying that Job's sickness was God's will is the same as saying our sin was His will as well.

God allowed it all for a purpose. He had a greater purpose in mind when he allowed Satan to do against Job what he did. And God took complete credit for it.

Job 2:3
And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

It was a work of Satan that God used to a greater good. God knew what he was doing when he allowed it to occur. He even instigated the whole thing. God tested Job.

James 5:11
11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.
NASU

[VerticalReality]

God allowed it all for a purpose. He had a greater purpose in mind when he allowed Satan to do against Job what he did. And God took complete credit for it.

Job 2:3
And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

It was a work of Satan that God used to a greater good. God knew what he was doing when he allowed it to occur. He even instigated the whole thing. God tested Job.

James 5:11
11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.
NASU

You could make all those same statements about Adam and Eve in the garden. Yet, I don't know anyone who would say it was God's will that they sin. Did He allow it? Sure. Did He will it? No, He didn't.

[Brother Mark]

Why do you assume God's will had anything to do with it?

Why was he born blind? Jesus said it was so that the works of God could be displayed in him.

John 9:3
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
NASU

I happen to believe the work God wanted displayed was the healing. But he would not have been healed had he not been born blind. Jesus said the man was born blind so that God's works could be made manifest in him.

Because the vessel God used was not around yet.

He had Elijah and Elisha in the OT. He could have used John the Baptist, or other prophets. He wanted to use Jesus. But that doesn't explain the man at the gate called beautiful. That man was probably there many times. But he was not healed until Peter and John came along.

Comes up over and over again? Perhaps you may need to reference my most recent posts. I haven't discussed this topic in quite some time. Besides, even if I did discuss this topic often, just doing so does not mean I'm frustrated. Where in my posts do I give that impression?

I already acknowledge I assumed wrong. I apologize again.

You didn't really address my statement. Do the scriptures proclaim Elisha's situation as being God's will?

It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment. If it wasn't his appointed time, I would expect that God would have said so. Where does it say this was not his appointed time? There's nothing in the passage to indicate it was outside God's will at all. One would have to assume that he was not supposed to die.

He was anointed enough to heal others. He was anointed enough to do great miracles. He was anointed enough to raise the dead. For it not to be God's will for him to die would require a lot of assumption, IMO. The evidence, given all of scripture and the testimony of Elisha, was that it was time to go. IOW, it's implied, IMO.