What Does Your Church Teach?

[Brother Mark]

You could make all those same statements about Adam and Eve in the garden. Yet, I don't know anyone who would say it was God's will that they sin. Did He allow it? Sure. Did He will it? No, He didn't.

No you can't.

Let me say it this way. It has always been God's will to test man. That was true before and after the fall. But because we live in a world where death exist, death and disease can be part of that testing as demonstrated by Job. God did heal him. But not until the test was over.

Job's sin did not bring on the disease. It was Job's righteousness that brought about the testing. He passed with flying colors. Nothing he could do to make the test go away. It was going to happen. And God took credit for it. He is not going to stop testing us or eliminate the death and sickness that can come with it. However, once the test is over, we can and should be healed, as was Job.

[VerticalReality]

Why was he born blind? Jesus said it was so that the works of God could be displayed in him.

You quoted me in reference to another example that you had given. Regardless, the point still stands. You are making a lot of assumptions about God's will that aren't in the text.

I happen to believe the work God wanted displayed was the healing. But he would not have been healed had he not been born blind. Jesus said the man was born blind so that God's works could be made manifest in him.

So, you would suppose based upon this passage that God made him blind? Again, that is assumption. The passage does not say God made him that way. Did He allow it? That's an entirely separate issue.

He had Elijah and Elisha in the OT. He could have used John the Baptist, or other prophets. He wanted to use Jesus. But that doesn't explain the man at the gate called beautiful. That man was probably there many times. But he was not healed until Peter and John came along.

And? What am I supposed to assume based upon your statements above? Elijah and Elisha weren't around for the blind man. John the Baptist was in the wilderness. You pick out one person on the face of the planet that God could have used? For that matter, why didn't John the Baptist just ditch his calling and start journeying around the world doing whatever? It seems you are reaching pretty far on this one, Brother Mark. You are giving a lot of examples mixed in with a lot of your assumptions. We cannot build doctrines out of assumptions.

It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment. If it wasn't his appointed time, I would expect that God would have said so. Where does it say this was not his appointed time? There's nothing in the passage to indicate it was outside God's will at all. One would have to assume that he was not supposed to die.

There's nothing that mentions God's will period. Again, you are making assumptions. Did Jesus take the power of death from His Father or the devil? You seem to be inadvertently attributing to God what the devil has done.

He was anointed enough to heal others. He was anointed enough to do great miracles. He was anointed enough to raise the dead. For it not to be God's will for him to die would require a lot of assumption, IMO. The evidence, given all of scripture and the testimony of Elisha, was that it was time to go. IOW, it's implied, IMO.

Nothing is implied about Elisha's situation being God's will, and the fact that Elisha was used by God to perform miracles says absolutely nothing about his death by disease being the will of God. That is a ton of assumption. Further, I think it is very wrong assumption.

[VerticalReality]

No you can't.

Let me say it this way. It has always been God's will to test man. That was true before and after the fall. But because we live in a world where death exist, death and disease can be part of that testing as demonstrated by Job. God did heal him. But not until the test was over.

Adam and Eve weren't being tested?

Job's sin did not bring on the disease.

Nobody said Job's sin brought disease.

It was Job's righteousness that brought about the testing. He passed with flying colors. Nothing he could do to make the test go away. It was going to happen. And God took credit for it. He is not going to stop testing us or eliminate the death and sickness that can come with it. However, once the test is over, we can and should be healed, as was Job.

But you still seem to equal allowing a test to willing the things that come to pass. That is false. God allowed Adam and Eve to be tested. However, He did not will what the serpent did. The serpent was not under God's control and neither were Adam and Eve. Likewise, in the case of Job, God allowed the test but He did not control Satan nor did He will anything against Job. Now, could Adam and Eve have resisted the power of the serpent? The answer is yes. What makes you think Job couldn't as well?

[VerticalReality]

Another question: why should we be comparing ourselves to Elisha and Job?

“Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." -- Matthew 11:11

Should the Spirit-filled disciple of Christ be viewed as having a lesser blessing than those under the Old Covenant? Secondly, who did God give dominion to, Satan or mankind? Therefore, if Satan is bringing anything against mankind, whose fault is that? It isn't God. I would also like to point out the fact that if you study out the translations of Elisha's "disease" you will see that it is no lock that Elisha actually died of some sort of physical sickness.

[ChristianCoffee]

This has become a very interesting discussion: and I am truly amazed that it has remained as civil as it has. I only say that because the issue of sickness and sin have caused much diverseness in the Body of Christ. Our church teaches this on sickness and it's relationship to sin:

1) The fall of man brought about all nature of sin.

2) Sometimes mans sins lead directly to illness (such as smoking, homosexual relations, drug use, etc)

3) Sometimes Satan is allowed to attack people with illness

4) Sometimes God will use illness to make people come closer and to rely upon Him

5) There are times when illness has a direct correlation to ones sin in their life

6) There are times when man is allowed to cause illness and death in others lives so ultimately Gods Glory can be shown in the end result

Now, I am not saying all of these things are right or wrong, Biblical or un-Biblical. I truly do believe and understand the point all have made here. But I truly think my pastor has hit the nail on the head with these 6 points.

I have had many friends die: been to many funerals, Christian and non-Christian. I have heard the words that many have spoken about how "God needed another angel" or how "they are in a better place". While I will agree that for a believer they are in a better place, a non-believer is not when they die. And I truly tire of funeral sermons that seem to presuppose a person has gone to heaven when they have never even accepted Christ as their Savior. I was at a funeral last summer, and the person who died was not a Christian: as a matter of fact, they were opposed to God. Yet the family found a church that would give him a "proper" send off. The man was a bigoted fool (and I do not use that term loosely), but the pastor eloquently sermonized him so that to someone who did not know him it sounded like John the Baptist has passed away. After it was over, I met with this pastor, and asked him why he would give such false hope to these people here. His response was enough to make me shudder: he claimed that no matter what a person did in life, when they died they ALL went to heaven. This church, this pastor, they are normally a pure Bible preaching church. However, when I tried to point out to him his misstatement, he walked away.

Now, the family members who are not saved have told me in our little chats (they live close by me, so I see them often) that they have NO NEED to go to church. For if Bob (as I will call him) can go to heaven, so can they. That pastor just basically condemned an entire family to hell unless the Lord softens their collective hearts.

I guess this is a long way of me posting the way I believe about sin, illness and death in accordance to the posted topic, as well an agreement about "walking out" next time I hear someone preach from a pulpit that "God needed another angel".


In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

[RollTide21]

Adam and Eve weren't being tested?



Nobody said Job's sin brought disease.



But you still seem to equal allowing a test to willing the things that come to pass. That is false. God allowed Adam and Eve to be tested. However, He did not will what the serpent did. The serpent was not under God's control and neither were Adam and Eve. Likewise, in the case of Job, God allowed the test but He did not control Satan nor did He will anything against Job. Now, could Adam and Eve have resisted the power of the serpent? The answer is yes. What makes you think Job couldn't as well?

How exactly could Job have resisted the power of Satan against Him? Are you saying that Job had it within His Power to avoid Satan's attack and prevent the entire ordeal?

[VerticalReality]

How exactly could Job have resisted the power of Satan against Him? Are you saying that Job had it within His Power to avoid Satan's attack and prevent the entire ordeal?

Actually, on Job I don't think he could have because the scriptures state that His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Job was completely ignorant. He actually thought God was bringing all that stuff against him. You cannot really oppose an enemy that you do not know is there. Christians today, however, should be a different story. Unfortunately, too many are busy believing that God is putting everything on them or it's just a part of life that we can do nothing about.

[RollTide21]

Actually, on Job I don't think he could have because the scriptures state that His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Job was completely ignorant. He actually thought God was bringing all that stuff against him. You cannot really oppose an enemy that you do not know is there. Christians today, however, should be a different story. Unfortunately, too many are busy believing that God is putting everything on them or it's just a part of life that we can do nothing about.

Perhaps. But...I don't know how that could possibly change without God choosing to reveal Himself unlooked for to those people, myself included.

In this area, I can only have as much Faith as God allows me to have. Any time I have endured trial, what I have always had Peace knowing is that God was in control and that whatever happened would serve His Purpose. My Faith was always that whatever I might be tempted to see as random and pointless, I was able to rest assured knowing that God was working actively and was in control of the entire situation. Furthermore, I have seen the Fruits of how God has worked in these situations. You mentioned that what a person believes dictates what they experience. How am I to believe that God's Will is to heal everyone when I can't know the hearts of every Faithful saint who has gotten sick and died? I can't assume that there was a Faith problem with every person who did not overcome an illness. It seems to me that the experience is what dictates the belief, not the other way around.

I do not question that some have been healed miraculously by the Hand of God. What I do think, however, is that God had a Purpose for that time and place and used both the healer and the person being healed to demostrate Himself in that unique way at that unique time.

[VerticalReality]

Perhaps. But...I don't know how that could possibly change without God choosing to reveal Himself unlooked for to those people, myself included.

God, over time, has revealed Himself. I think what we have witnessed is the tremendous problem that we have on our end of things and not on God's. God works through His people. He always has. The scriptures have come through His people. Healings have come through His people. Miracles have come through His people. The list goes on. That is how God has chosen to reveal Himself and operate in this world. Why? I believe it is because He gave mankind rule over this earth. Therefore, He chooses to work through the ones He gave authority to. I believe this is why He had to come in the flesh as a man as well. Why couldn't God just forgive sins and restore this earth without sending Jesus? The answer is because He gave mankind rule and authority over this earth; therefore, its restoration would have to come through a man as well.

In this area, I can only have as much Faith as God allows me to have.

I believe we will have as much as we seek. I don't believe God is withholding from His people. I believe we receive grace proportional to our humbling ourselves and seeking.

Any time I have endured trial, what I have always had Peace knowing is that God was in control and that whatever happened would serve His Purpose.

God is in control of what? I believe the mindset that God is in control of everything is off. What are you referring to? I believe that is a misinterpretation that many Christians today believe when it comes to God's sovereignty. They have basically defined sovereignty as being in control of everything. That is not what the scriptures intend when they speak on this subject.

My Faith was always that whatever I might be tempted to see as random and pointless, I was able to rest assured knowing that God was working actively and was in control of the entire situation. Furthermore, I have seen the Fruits of how God has worked in these situations. You mentioned that what a person believes dictates what they experience. How am I to believe that God's Will is to heal everyone when I can't know the hearts of every Faithful saint who has gotten sick and died? I can't assume that there was a Faith problem with every person who did not overcome an illness. It seems to me that the experience is what dictates the belief, not the other way around.

I think that is pretty simple really. The scriptures reveal that Jesus came to fulfill His Father's will, and they say that He didn't do anything that He didn't first see His Father doing. Jesus healed everyone that came to Him in faith, no exceptions. The scriptures state that He came to destroy the works of the devil. The scriptures state that He went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil. Look at the things He healed people of and then get a picture of the type of things the devil will bring against people. Shouldn't we have just one occasion where Jesus tells a person that it isn't His Father's will to heal them? Shouldn't we have at least one occasion where Jesus told someone that their trials were actually the will of His Father and they should endure the affliction until their trial comes to an end? We never see anything even remotely close to that. In fact, we see Jesus responding to people in these kinds of situations with deep compassion. Furthermore, we see Him standing in opposition to the devil rather than opposition to His Father. Out of all those healings, many of which never even made it in scripture, we don't have one instance of Jesus rejecting someone because their sickness or disease was His Father's will. Don't you think that is a pretty large omission?

I do not question that some have been healed miraculously by the Hand of God. What I do think, however, is that God had a Purpose for that time and place and used both the healer and the person being healed to demostrate Himself in that unique way at that unique time.

I think you are touching on the truth more than you realize here. God used people. Unfortunately, today we don't have many who are in a position to be used. They have too much in the way. Reading the accounts of Jesus and His disciples, I don't see anything unique, as in sporadic, about healings. I see it as something they were commanded to do. Setting captives free was just a part of the Great Commission. Healings and deliverance shouldn't be the sporadic exception; rather, it should be the rule.

[Redeemed by Grace]

God allowed it all for a purpose. He had a greater purpose in mind when he allowed Satan to do against Job what he did. And God took complete credit for it.

Job 2:3
And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

It was a work of Satan that God used to a greater good. God knew what he was doing when he allowed it to occur. He even instigated the whole thing. God tested Job.

James 5:11
11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.
NASU

Amen BM

[amazzin]

Amen x 2 ................

Amen BM

[RollTide21]

God, over time, has revealed Himself. I think what we have witnessed is the tremendous problem that we have on our end of things and not on God's. God works through His people. He always has. The scriptures have come through His people. Healings have come through His people. Miracles have come through His people. The list goes on. That is how God has chosen to reveal Himself and operate in this world. Why? I believe it is because He gave mankind rule over this earth. Therefore, He chooses to work through the ones He gave authority to. I believe this is why He had to come in the flesh as a man as well. Why couldn't God just forgive sins and restore this earth without sending Jesus? The answer is because He gave mankind rule and authority over this earth; therefore, its restoration would have to come through a man as well.

This all may very well be true. I'm still not sure how to arrive at the level that God wants me to be, if this is the case, however. I want to have the strongest Faith possible. I'm not exactly sure how I would go about believing that God WILL heal in a specific case as opposed to God healing or not healing based on His Will.

I believe we will have as much as we seek. I don't believe God is withholding from His people. I believe we receive grace proportional to our humbling ourselves and seeking.

So the Believer who is on his knees desperately praying for God to heal his cancer-stricken child isn't humbling himself enough or seeking God enough? I'm having trouble understanding how one who has true Faith in Christ would NOT desire to "believe" that God WILL perform miracles if we only ask in Faith.

God is in control of what? I believe the mindset that God is in control of everything is off. What are you referring to?

If I'm His, which I am, nothing is going to happen to me that He doesn't allow according to His Will.

I believe that is a misinterpretation that many Christians today believe when it comes to God's sovereignty. They have basically defined sovereignty as being in control of everything. That is not what the scriptures intend when they speak on this subject.

If being "in control of everything" = working through all circumstances to accomplish His Will for those who love and seek Him, then that's what I believe.

I think that is pretty simple really. The scriptures reveal that Jesus came to fulfill His Father's will, and they say that He didn't do anything that He didn't first see His Father doing. Jesus healed everyone that came to Him in faith, no exceptions. The scriptures state that He came to destroy the works of the devil. The scriptures state that He went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil. Look at the things He healed people of and then get a picture of the type of things the devil will bring against people. Shouldn't we have just one occasion where Jesus tells a person that it isn't His Father's will to heal them? Shouldn't we have at least one occasion where Jesus told someone that their trials were actually the will of His Father and they should endure the affliction until their trial comes to an end? We never see anything even remotely close to that. In fact, we see Jesus responding to people in these kinds of situations with deep compassion. Furthermore, we see Him standing in opposition to the devil rather than opposition to His Father. Out of all those healings, many of which never even made it in scripture, we don't have one instance of Jesus rejecting someone because their sickness or disease was His Father's will. Don't you think that is a pretty large omission?

So...I go back to...how do we get to that point, assuming this is God's Will for His Children??? This thread is funny because, about an hour ago, I got a phone call from a member of our Sunday School class. I am this year's President, and she called me in tears. She desperately wanted me to send an email to our class asking us to pray for her mother-in-law who, they just found out, has to have emergency surgery and the doctors don't think she will make it.

I was moved with real urgency to send out the prayer request and start praying immediately. I didn't pray for God's Will to be done, regardless of the situation. I prayed for miraculous healing. I prayed for God to please remove any barrier that I might be unwittingly placing between myself and Him that would hinder His Power. All I knew to do was be humble, plead with God to hear my prayer in Jesus's Name, and ask for a miracle. Now...do I "believe" that God is GOING to miraculously heal her? In other words, am I sitting here rejoicing KNOWING that she will be healed? Honestly, no. I don't know. How COULD I know? If you are saying that there are those that will pray this prayer and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person will be healed, then, boy, that would be WONDERFUL! I have no resistance to that. Why would I? I will say this: I believe that it was God-led that she called me and that it was God-led that I close the door to my office and pray immediately for her healing. Should I be shocked and ashamed about myself for some reason if she doesn't pull through? I don't know what else to do.

I think you are touching on the truth more than you realize here. God used people. Unfortunately, today we don't have many who are in a position to be used. They have too much in the way. Reading the accounts of Jesus and His disciples, I don't see anything unique, as in sporadic, about healings. I see it as something they were commanded to do. Setting captives free was just a part of the Great Commission. Healings and deliverance shouldn't be the sporadic exception; rather, it should be the rule.

I guess I would ask that you be specific in how people "have too much in the way".

[VerticalReality]

This all may very well be true. I'm still not sure how to arrive at the level that God wants me to be, if this is the case, however. I want to have the strongest Faith possible. I'm not exactly sure how I would go about believing that God WILL heal in a specific case as opposed to God healing or not healing based on His Will.

The size of faith isn't the issue. Jesus said the smallest amount of faith is big enough to accomplish that which would otherwise be impossible. Again, it goes back to what I stated earlier. Most Christians today believe God can do anything but He has done nothing. They view healing as something God could provide rather than something He's already provided. Did you happen to watch the healing testimony I posted? If so, what did you think of it?

So the Believer who is on his knees desperately praying for God to heal his cancer-stricken child isn't humbling himself enough or seeking God enough? I'm having trouble understanding how one who has true Faith in Christ would NOT desire to "believe" that God WILL perform miracles if we only ask in Faith.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. God has provided His grace, right? For example, Jesus died for our sin and our salvation is now by grace through faith in what He's done, correct? So, in the case of salvation, for example, God is not withholding His grace. He isn't preventing certain people from believing for salvation. Furthermore, if someone desires to be saved He's not sending Jesus again to suffer on a cross. His grace has already been provided through Jesus. We simply respond by faith to what God has already provided.

If I'm His, which I am, nothing is going to happen to me that He doesn't allow according to His Will.

He doesn't will you to sin, right? If He doesn't will that portion of your life, why do you insist He wills other portions? Again, there is a big difference between God allowing something and it being His will. BIG difference.

If being "in control of everything" = working through all circumstances to accomplish His Will for those who love and seek Him, then that's what I believe.

Hmmm . . . so you think everything that happens to a believer is something that must happen because it's a part of some large plan by God? If so, that seems pretty close to a fate mentality. Care to expound?

So...I go back to...how do we get to that point, assuming this is God's Will for His Children??? This thread is funny because, about an hour ago, I got a phone call from a member of our Sunday School class. I am this year's President, and she called me in tears. She desperately wanted me to send an email to our class asking us to pray for her mother-in-law who, they just found out, has to have emergency surgery and the doctors don't think she will make it.

I was moved with real urgency to send out the prayer request and start praying immediately. I didn't pray for God's Will to be done, regardless of the situation. I prayed for miraculous healing. I prayed for God to please remove any barrier that I might be unwittingly placing between myself and Him that would hinder His Power. All I knew to do was be humble, plead with God to hear my prayer in Jesus's Name, and ask for a miracle. Now...do I "believe" that God is GOING to miraculously heal her? In other words, am I sitting here rejoicing KNOWING that she will be healed? Honestly, no. I don't know. How COULD I know? If you are saying that there are those that will pray this prayer and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person will be healed, then, boy, that would be WONDERFUL! I have no resistance to that. Why would I? I will say this: I believe that it was God-led that she called me and that it was God-led that I close the door to my office and pray immediately for her healing. Should I be shocked and ashamed about myself for some reason if she doesn't pull through? I don't know what else to do.

Let me ask another question: why should we assume that it wasn't God's will if she isn't healed? Are we just assuming that because our prayer didn't come to pass? Why must the finger always be pointed God's direction as the default "that's why they didn't get healed" response? Regardless, what do you think about what I actually posted? You didn't really respond to that part. What do you think about the fact that Jesus never ever once turned anyone away? What do you think about the fact that He never once taught that sickness and disease was His Father's will in order to teach us lessons? Why did He never once turn someone away because their testing hadn't been completed yet? The only time we see Jesus not healing someone is when there was unbelief. That is the only time. Doesn't that strike you as a tad odd compared to the popular teaching these days that healing is a hit or miss gamble, maybe you'll get lucky and God will heal you and maybe you won't?

I guess I would ask that you be specific in how people "have too much in the way".

Well, let's look at scripture and those who were actually successful in being used by God's Spirit to confirm their preaching. The word says they forsook all to follow Him, and even then Jesus revealed in Matthew 16 that they had too much unbelief to cast a demon out of a boy who was going in to epileptic seisures. Jesus told them that such unbelief only comes out by prayer and fasting. In other words, seeking the kingdom with your whole heart will allow you to tap into that faith needed to perform the miraculous. These days I believe Christians are spending too much time filling their minds with that which is carnal as opposed to that which is spiritual. Today most preachers do not have any of their preaching confirmed by the miraculous, and most of them spend more time trying to invent reasons why that stuff isn't for us today, especially not on the same level as the early church disciples. These days people have a difficult time praying for much of anything without being filled with doubt and unbelief. The scriptures reveal that doubt makes it impossible to receive from God. I think that says a lot right there. Today Christians have a hard enough time simply believing that all the Bible is true, much less actually applicable to them in its entirety. There are many reasons.