Calvinism / pre-destination

[John146]

What really happened with Paul, "Realist"? Did God take a godless sin-bent, Scripture-hating, God-hating, evil man --- and turn him towards Himself? No. Paul was a learned man, taught in Scripture; he thought "The Way" was against God, he thought he was helping God.

What Jesus told Paul that day, was: "No --- you're not helping Me."

In one instant Paul realized Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus was God. So it wasn't a turn-around in serving God, it was correcting his mistake. Paul thought Christians were heretics. In Jesus' light Paul realized with shock that he was HARMING God, not serving Him. So what happened to Paul was NOT "changing his will" (he wanted to serve God), but changing the direction of the intent of his will. Paul was headed in one direction, and Jesus appeared and said: "You're going the wrong way; I'm over HERE."

Also, how many people does God bless with a "Damascus-Road" experience? Yes it happens, occasionally; it's very rare. To use that as part of any theology, it would have to happen frequently, "most often". But God does not force Himself on anyone. I've heard of those in Islam to whom Jesus appears in a dream --- "You want to follow the real God? I am He!" It's still offering them a choice. Same as what happened to Paul.

Mostly we affect who will believe, by our preaching. We are told to "SAVE others, snatching them from the fire"! That is persuasion-from-us, not a Damascus-Road experience...

(Jude23)

Excellent post. Well said. Paul's experience was unique but nowhere does it say he was forced to serve Christ. His intentions were good but he was mistaken. He wanted to serve God, as you said, but he needed correction and he accepted that correction, by choice. I believe many of the other Pharisees had no desire to serve and obey God but instead were interested in being served and being praised by men. Paul wasn't chosen randomly to be "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13). It was because of his passionate desire to serve God that he was chosen for that role. To be passionate about serving God was a choice that Paul made.

[LookingUp]

Saul's/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. God changed his destiny from an enemy of Christ to a hero of Christ.
Isn't that God overturning Man's will?

You mean "overriding"? If God had wanted to override Paul's will, why in the world did He go to such lengths to get that rebellious Saul to repent? Of course, God didn't override Saul's will.

[keyzer soze]

I don't think the point is if God "forced" Paul but rather would Paul have repented had God not acted first?

[Gadgeteer]

Hey Gadgeteer,

Sorry that you want to go toe to toe to every verse, every word and every quote break, but I for one
1) don't have the time to reply to each and every point in counterpoint, and
2) more times than not just proclaim and not debate.

My position is and has always been that all men are born sinners, that every man is destined for hell, that no man seeks after God on his own for man enjoys darkness...

Okay, let's deal with two points --- will that be all right?

"No man seeks after God on his own". We agree; but what if God calls everyone, and it is the call that empowers him to seek?

We've discussed Deuteronomy30:11-20, and its connection with Romans10:6-10 --- Paul says it's the same faith with Jesus, as it was in Deuteronomy!

But what's significant with the passage, is that "the word of faith" is given to both those who can "confess and believe and be saved" (Rom10:9-10), and those who can "turn away disobey and perish" (Deut30:17). So we see it is absolutely not exclusive!

...that God initiates the way of salvation in sending His Son; the world kills Him; God initiates saving men through changing their heart to understand the Gospel of Christ.

All right, let's make this the second point of discussion. God changes their hearts TO (so that they can!) understand the Gospel of Christ. Where is that in Scripture? It's not in 1Cor2:14, it's not in Ezk36:26-27, it's not in 2Cor4:3-4. Where is it? Additionally -- everyone (including Reformed Theology people) agree that "regeneration" and "having-life" (made-alive) go together; a person cannot be one without the other. "Regeneration" is the same as "changing-hearts-to-understand", according to Reformed Theology. So --- in John20:31, and in John5:40, how can "have-life" come after "believing/coming"? That's backwards. Can we scratch out verses like that? (No offense meant.)

These two points really go to the foundation of how you and I understand Scripture differently.

I look forward as always to your thoughts.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Romans 8:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Looking back at my life and faith in Christ I do not believe this only started AFTER I accepted Him.... I believe God walked me down a path to faith.

Please see my previous post --- I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. What if God walks everyone down a path to faith --- and gives each the choice to believe, or to turn away? Can we understand Deut30:11-20, Romans10:6-10, and especially Acts17:26-31 any other way?

What would it mean with the words "It is not too far (nor too difficult)", if it really is a matter of predestination, then it's invinitely too far for most, isn't it?

What do these mean?

I never heard or really considered a personal relationship with Christ until my late 20's early 30's having grown up in a Catholic family and the concept of be good and ethical, go to church and do the ritual stuff and leave the rest to God. Upon considering this new relationship with Christ I knew what I had was nothing and I wanted more, however I could not bring myself to believe the bible after 30+ years of thinking these were just stories and not meant to take so seriously as to change you life.... Well I prayed for faith, I prayed for Christ, I prayed to believe when I didn't believe and things happened, NOT GOOD, that took me down a path of humbleness and NEED for Him. I believe God steered that path and used that BAD to soften my heart and allow him in.... (and if I am correct God used a LOT of unsaved people and SIN to save me, something that seems odd and against free-will...)

So I say all this to say that I don't believe the verse above kicked in AFTER I had faith but before.... like before I was born. While I am thankful for the born-again who challenged me, the pastor who spent countless hours answering my questions, I believe it was all God every step of the way. When it comes to the answer of why me? Trust me when I say I feel ANYTHING but special about me OR my faith, I contribute all of it to God and I am so utterly speechless and humbled that He would open my eyes because I don't understand why. (I should add that I know the why is mercy/love and for the glory of Christ but the part that is hard to fathom is why many/most that I know outside of my Church don't have their eyes open... yet)

What about Matt13:15, where people close their own eyes and ears?

[Gadgeteer]

I agree that we can be deceived away from Jesus, I know I was, but I don't believe this means AFTER you have been remade new. I believe this simply means to be deceived away (one of the bad soils!)

You and I can trade opinions all day (and all night); but what does Scripture say about it? May we discuss Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Tim6:10 & 20-21, and especially 2Cor11:3 (which mirrors 2Tim4:1)? Can we paint all those verses as "deceiving those who never were saved"?

How does one who isn't really WITH Jesus, get deceived away FROM Him?

What I don't get is that you asked me how I could know if I was saved and I answered that with time I can evaluate the direction and fruit in my life and you said that was wrong.

No, I didn't say "that was wrong"; I said "those in Luke8:13 would ALSO say, at first, that 'their fruit and direction fit salvation'."

You say "bad soils" --- still holding the idea that "bad soil CAUSES falling away"; have you considered Heb6:7-8? One soil can produce either good fruit, or bad fruit. "Good" or "Bad" soils, is a label that consequents from whether they persevered (produced good fruit) or fell (bad fruit) --- isn't it?

What are we to do with Hebrews6:7-8? We cannot remove it from the Bible!

Yet you also state that one can LOSE their salvation so it almost comes off as you are against any answer I give.

I'm not trying to argue by opinion; what I'd like you to do is interact with the verses being cited and tell me which of our positions is supported.

Perhaps the most fundamental difference in our theology is around the term SAVED. When I use it I use it PAST tense because it is not a progression (like taught to me in the Catholic faith) it is an instantaneous thing that happens. To me Saved means that eternity was CHANGED in that moment... ETERNITY... not maybe or maybe not pending on how it plays out. If you do not believe in OSAS then how can you ever claim to be justified or redeemed to the point of salvation in the past tense SAVED?

I agree perfectly that "saved" is an instantaneous thing. 1Jn5:13 says that he who HAS the Son has eternal life. But please interact with 2Jn1:7-9, written to saved people, saying that we can "go too far and cease abiding in Jesus and His teachings". What can we do with that verse too?

To me you could claim at best to be "on the road to salvation" but check back with me at death.

Please refer to Hebrews3:6 and 14, and 1Cor15:2; these and many verses like them state that we are saved IF we hold fast. Salvation is "receiving Christ by faith", and it is "abiding in Him". What happens if we cease to abide, if we cease to hold fast? What do you do with these verses?

It seems that you mock people who say that you can't know their eternal destiny until salvation but you also mock people who believe in OSAS... how can neither be correct?

Not mocking anyone at all; striving to get people to consider verses that don't seem to fit. If they don't fit, then what should we do with them?

Shouldn't you beg your pastor to kill all the saved people after their profession of faith to lock in eternity?

Let's just confine the discussion to the verses we've just talked about, and see if we can come to agreement on what they mean.

I look forward with eagerness to your thoughts.

[Gadgeteer]

I submit for consideration that a true christian cannot fall away, for God keeps what is His... There is a saying within the reformed circle that is POTS, Perseverance Of The Saints. Some take this as man's efforts. I take this to mean God's efforts. For I also take that once God has called someone, it's done, sign sealed and delivered.

"Redeemed", what do you think about all the precise verses we've been discussing? If you and I could interact with those verses (and any you might cite), maybe each could come to a better understanding of how the other's position fits Scripture. As I just said above, we can trade opinions all day, and all night; but what aligns with Scripture?

Are you game?

:-)

[keyzer soze]

You and I can trade opinions all day (and all night); but what does Scripture say about it? May we discuss Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Tim6:10 & 20-21, and especially 2Cor11:3 (which mirrors 2Tim4:1)? Can we paint all those verses as "deceiving those who never were saved"?

Just went and read all the verses you listed above and I do not believe he is referring to anyone who has received eternal life. Are there any verses that explicitly say that someone loses their salvation? I believe the verses above are more like the soils. In the parable of the soils do you believe that 3 soils were saved but 2 lost their salvation? I believe only 1 was ever saved, the other 3 were never saved.

[keyzer soze]

7 For w land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But x if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, y and its end is to be burned. [Matt 25:41];

I don't understand what you are saying these verses mean... if the crops are good and useful God blesses them, but if they have thorns and are worthless God does not give his blessing... so what?

[Redeemed by Grace]

"Redeemed", what do you think about all the precise verses we've been discussing? If you and I could interact with those verses (and any you might cite), maybe each could come to a better understanding of how the other's position fits Scripture. As I just said above, we can trade opinions all day, and all night; but what aligns with Scripture?

Are you game?

:-)

Game? Not sure I'm game... but willing to proclaim the Gospel, always. But you need to focus on one verse at a time, for it will never finish if anything more.

[keyzer soze]

2Jn1:7-9 (2John 1:7 [ESV])
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
(ok he is warning them)
(2John 1:8 [ESV])
Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
(see 1Co 3:10-17)
(2John 1:9 [ESV])
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
1 Jn 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 3:6-10
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

So my answer, based on scripture, is that anyone who "falls away" and denies Christ never knew him.

[Gadgeteer]

Excellent post. Well said. Paul's experience was unique but nowhere does it say he was forced to serve Christ. His intentions were good but he was mistaken. He wanted to serve God, as you said, but he needed correction and he accepted that correction, by choice. I believe many of the other Pharisees had no desire to serve and obey God but instead were interested in being served and being praised by men. Paul wasn't chosen randomly to be "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13). It was because of his passionate desire to serve God that he was chosen for that role. To be passionate about serving God was a choice that Paul made.

Look at this passage:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from men;
but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John5:39-47

This passage fits what you said perfectly. Why did Jesus make this speech? Was He talking to people who COULD NOT respond? No --- it was a rebuke.

Why did they not want to come to Jesus to have life? Because --- they refused to believe Moses, because they sought their OWN glory rather than God's, but mostly because they did not love God. It's the same as John8:42: "If God was your Father (if you believed/loved Him), then you would love Me."

Jesus wasn't just speaking empty words to people predestined to perish; it was a rebuke to faith. He did many rebukes --- Matt11:21-24 is another rebuke, and repentance/belief is clearly the goal. In John5 the REASON they WOULD not believe is because they chose selfish paths; the entire conversation simply does not accommodate "predestined-salvation".

Note also two connections. John5:39 connects directly to 2Tim3:15; in one case a person who searches the Scripture can refuse salvation, in another case studying Scriptures causes conviction/wisdom that LEADS to salvation. The second connection is John5:40, connecting with John20:31 -- in both cases "belief" (coming-to-Jesus) comes BEFORE "having-life/regeneration".

[Gadgeteer]

2Jn1:7-9 (2John 1:7 [ESV])
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
(ok he is warning them)
(2John 1:8 [ESV])
Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
(see 1Co 3:10-17)
(2John 1:9 [ESV])
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Keyzer, I really admire you! Not everyone will engage the verses! Well done!!! :-D

I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Let's establish some clear points from this passage:
1. He's speaking so the SAVED ("some of your children walking in the truth")
2. He admonishes them to WALK in His commandments
3. He warns that there are DECEIVERS in the world
4. (therefore) watch yourselves that you not lose what was wrought
4b. ...that you may receive full reward
5. (because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in Christ's teachings has not God.
6. (but) he who abides has the Father and the Son.

"Reward of the inheritance" in Col3:24.

There are those who try to assert a subject change between verses 8 and 9(and another subject-change-back in verse 9); but there is no subject change. It's a warning to believers, against deceivers, to [u]abide in salvation[p/u]. It can't be anything else.

Here is how some people try to understand it:

"Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you receive HEAVENLY CROWNS. Anyone who was NEVER-SAVED will (of course) go too far, and won't abide in Christ's teachings (they have never abided!); but the truly saved WILL abide and will have the Father and the Son."

Obviously, one cannot GO too far, if he was ALWAYS too far! And why warn the saved against deceivers --- do deceivers really care how many "shiny crowns" we have in Heaven? And why insert a statement about the "never-saved", making a subject sandwich -- saved/unsaved/saved? How does that make sense?

1 Jn 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 3:6-10
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

So my answer, based on scripture, is that anyone who "falls away" and denies Christ never knew him.

All views of OSAS deny movement; that is, "one cannot move from saved to unsaved". But 2Jn does not have subject-changes, and very clearly expresses that movement. Your quote from 1Jn2 and 3 does not overturn the movement in 2Jn.

Whoever IS born-again, DOES NOT leave; but if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be born again.

Would you be willing to discuss a verse that teaches the reality of "ceasing-to-be-born-again"?

[Gadgeteer]

what about the verses that have been cited? And the requested ones, like "where in Scripture is heart-change-before-belief"?

Post #62

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...37#post2810537

It's the wisdom to understand....

I answered all of that, "Redeemed". Post 64, 65 and 66.

If I don't have "the wisdom to understand", then please interact with the cited verses. What about some that I've cited?

"As you have received Christ, so walk in Him (see that no one deceives you!)". Col2:6-8
"Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love". Jude20-21.
"PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES." 1Tim4:16.
"Abide in Him SO THAT you not shrink in shame when He comes." 1Jn2:26-28.

There are a lot more "deceived away from Jesus and the Faith" verses; 2Pet3:17, 1Tim4:1, 2Cor11:3 for instance. Can we paint all of these into, "If they are led astray, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place"?

I hope we have drawn each other closer to God, and maybe even closer to each other; I would NEVER do anything that could injure another's faith, only striving to make people think and delve deeper into Scripture.

Whether or not we continue, my sincere appreciation and grattitude for your posts.

May God bless you, and me, and use both of us mightily in His great harvest.

:-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

I answered all of that, "Redeemed". Post 64, 65 and 66.

If I don't have "the wisdom to understand", then please interact with the cited verses. What about some that I've cited?

"As you have received Christ, so walk in Him (see that no one deceives you!)". Col2:6-8
"Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love". Jude20-21.
"PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES." 1Tim4:16.
"Abide in Him SO THAT you not shrink in shame when He comes." 1Jn2:26-28.

There are a lot more "deceived away from Jesus and the Faith" verses; 2Pet3:17, 1Tim4:1, 2Cor11:3 for instance. Can we paint all of these into, "If they are led astray, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place"?

I hope we have drawn each other closer to God, and maybe even closer to each other; I would NEVER do anything that could injure another's faith, only striving to make people think and delve deeper into Scripture.

Whether or not we continue, my sincere appreciation and grattitude for your posts.

May God bless you, and me, and use both of us mightily in His great harvest.

:-)

As you have received Christ.... Sums it up very well. Good instruction of walking in the faith....