Calvinism / pre-destination

[Gadgeteer]

As you have received Christ.... Sums it up very well. Good instruction of walking in the faith....

What's the rest of the story, "Reedemed"?

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

That's still the question of this thread --- can we be "taken captive" ...rather than according to Christ?

What does that mean?

(Short post, huh?)

:-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

What's the rest of the story, "Reedemed"?

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

That's still the question of this thread --- can we be "taken captive" ...rather than according to Christ?

What does that mean?

(Short post, huh?)

:-)

Short is good... Thank you...

There are three elements that sometimes gets mixed up as being saved. They are belief [faith]; Walk [Obedience, Learning, Growing]; Examination [Warnings, Challenges]. They are not tripartite in being saved, but walk and examination confirm one's beliefs.

Colossians 2:8 speaks well to a mixture of walk and examination. Paul states in Chapter one that they came to being saved through the wisdom of the Gospel given by Epaphras, confirmed in the Spirit shown as love. Then Paul, being encouraged as to this report, asks God to grow them and be filled with a) knowledge of His will, b) in spiritual wisdom and understanding, c)so that they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. Then Paul goes back to explain how their salvation came to be - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness....

So three categories of a Christian, so to speak: Being saved -- yielding next to walking the christian walk, testing for faith along the way. A true christian will have all three elements. A counter Christian lacks true saving Faith... lack of the indwelling of His Spirit that allows and provides for growth and passing tests.

Thanks Gadgeteer... I do appreciate your brevity and devotion to your understandings, for no matter what each of us sees in this matter, it is still within the doctrine of being saved and we rejoice in His glory!

[keyzer soze]

Keyzer, I really admire you! Not everyone will engage the verses! Well done!!! :-D

I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Let's establish some clear points from this passage:
1. He's speaking so the SAVED ("some of your children walking in the truth")
2. He admonishes them to WALK in His commandments
3. He warns that there are DECEIVERS in the world
4. (therefore) watch yourselves that you not lose what was wrought
4b. ...that you may receive full reward
5. (because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in Christ's teachings has not God.
6. (but) he who abides has the Father and the Son.

"Reward of the inheritance" in Col3:24.

There are those who try to assert a subject change between verses 8 and 9(and another subject-change-back in verse 9); but there is no subject change. It's a warning to believers, against deceivers, to [u]abide in salvation[p/u]. It can't be anything else.

Here is how some people try to understand it:

"Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you receive HEAVENLY CROWNS. Anyone who was NEVER-SAVED will (of course) go too far, and won't abide in Christ's teachings (they have never abided!); but the truly saved WILL abide and will have the Father and the Son."

Obviously, one cannot GO too far, if he was ALWAYS too far! And why warn the saved against deceivers --- do deceivers really care how many "shiny crowns" we have in Heaven? And why insert a statement about the "never-saved", making a subject sandwich -- saved/unsaved/saved? How does that make sense?
All views of OSAS deny movement; that is, "one cannot move from saved to unsaved". But 2Jn does not have subject-changes, and very clearly expresses that movement. Your quote from 1Jn2 and 3 does not overturn the movement in 2Jn.

Whoever IS born-again, DOES NOT leave; but if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be born again.

Would you be willing to discuss a verse that teaches the reality of "ceasing-to-be-born-again"?

I am slammed right now at work but hope to get more time later today or this weekend to try to address this. I do not know the scriptures like you do (yet), I am only reading the OT for the very first time right now page by page and it's awesome! However, I am NOT quick to be able to find the verses that are the foundation of my beliefs like you can.... I can find them if I have enough time but it takes a long time. I do enjoy looking this stuff up and if I didn't have the responsibilities I have and also a family I would spend more time. I am also a guy who needs SLEEP, if I don't get it I get moody and no one wants me around! Plus my concentration level bombs!

By the way, I am the type (probably part of what drove me into rocket-science) that wants to clear up ALL passages that are in conflict with my theology. However, I know that there are limits, I know that after 2,000 years there are still LOTS of disputes between men MUCH smarter then myself AND more studied than myself so it is illogical to think that I am going to be able to explain everything regardless.

Till I have more time, have a good one!

[Redeemed by Grace]

I am slammed right now at work but hope to get more time later today or this weekend to try to address this. I do not know the scriptures like you do (yet), I am only reading the OT for the very first time right now page by page and it's awesome! However, I am NOT quick to be able to find the verses that are the foundation of my beliefs like you can.... I can find them if I have enough time but it takes a long time. I do enjoy looking this stuff up and if I didn't have the responsibilities I have and also a family I would spend more time. I am also a guy who needs SLEEP, if I don't get it I get moody and no one wants me around! Plus my concentration level bombs!

By the way, I am the type (probably part of what drove me into rocket-science) that wants to clear up ALL passages that are in conflict with my theology. However, I know that there are limits, I know that after 2,000 years there are still LOTS of disputes between men MUCH smarter then myself AND more studied than myself so it is illogical to think that I am going to be able to explain everything regardless.

Till I have more time, have a good one!

A Rocket Scientist eh... Whoa!

[John146]

I don't think the point is if God "forced" Paul but rather would Paul have repented had God not acted first?

I don't think anyone repents without God acting first, but the question is whether or not someone can still resist God when He is calling them to repent and I think the answer to that question is clearly "Yes".

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

[John146]

Look at this passage:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from men;
but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John5:39-47

This passage fits what you said perfectly. Why did Jesus make this speech? Was He talking to people who COULD NOT respond? No --- it was a rebuke.

That's right. If He didn't want them to be saved it wouldn't have made sense for Him to have said that to them. He was clearly rebuking them and telling them what they should have done and that because they didn't do it they did not have the eternal life they thought they had, which could only come from putting their faith in Him. But in the Calvinist view there would be no reason to rebuke them for their lack of faith because in that view the reason for their lack of faith is because God didn't give it to them. If they weren't able to put their faith in Him because of not having been given the faith to do so then why would He rebuke them for not doing so? That wouldn't make any sense. That would be like Him saying "I'm mad at you for not believing in Me even though you can't believe in Me unless I give you the faith to do so.". Huh? That would make Him responsible for their lack of faith instead of them. But He was clearly holding them responsible for their lack of faith.

Why did they not want to come to Jesus to have life? Because --- they refused to believe Moses, because they sought their OWN glory rather than God's, but mostly because they did not love God. It's the same as John8:42: "If God was your Father (if you believed/loved Him), then you would love Me."

Jesus wasn't just speaking empty words to people predestined to perish; it was a rebuke to faith. He did many rebukes --- Matt11:21-24 is another rebuke, and repentance/belief is clearly the goal. In John5 the REASON they WOULD not believe is because they chose selfish paths; the entire conversation simply does not accommodate "predestined-salvation".

Note also two connections. John5:39 connects directly to 2Tim3:15; in one case a person who searches the Scripture can refuse salvation, in another case studying Scriptures causes conviction/wisdom that LEADS to salvation. The second connection is John5:40, connecting with John20:31 -- in both cases "belief" (coming-to-Jesus) comes BEFORE "having-life/regeneration".

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I don't think anyone repents without God acting first, but the question is whether or not someone can still resist God when He is calling them to repent and I think the answer to that question is clearly "Yes".

That's a giraffe's neck of a stretch there Eric... The Gospel is wide open for all to hear and respond... Doesn't mean that man cannot resist, quite the opposite, all men love the darkness over the light.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

[John146]

That's a giraffe's neck of a stretch there Eric

Why is that?

The Gospel is wide open for all to hear and respond...

But you believe that some are not able to respond with faith. I disagree with that. Those who reject the gospel and reject Christ are able to believe the gospel and put their faith in Him but are unwilling to do so and choose not to do so. I was talking in terms of God calling people to repent. Why would He call someone to repent if the person was unable to do so? Scripture clearly teaches that some of those who He calls to repent do not answer His call. I'd like to know why you think He calls some to repent who are supposedly not even able to do so?

Doesn't mean that man cannot resist, quite the opposite, all men love the darkness over the light.

That is not true and not taught anywhere in scripture. I don't love the darkness over the light. Read the following carefully:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You say all men love darkness over the light. That is clearly not true. I don't love darkness over the light. You don't love darkness over the light, do you? Jesus said some love darkness over the light but "he that doeth truth cometh to the light". If all love darkness over the light then who is "he that doeth truth" and "cometh to the light"? Whether to love darkness or the light is the choice that everyone must make and everyone is capable of coming to the light even though not all do because some choose not to do so.

[keyzer soze]

I am REALLY enjoying both my read through the OT and my study of the book of Romans. This has been occupying the majority of my "free time" when I am not spending it with my wife and kid. There are some TOUGH things to reconcile in the bible though! This isn't meant to derail this thread or even talk about this but I am in the middle of 1 Sam now and it sure seems that these 2 passages are contradictory to me. Doesn't one have to use self discernment to understand how both can be perfectly true? I don't want to talk about the issue here, simply bringing it up to suggest that perhaps we can't understand everything with our human logic....


1 Sam 15: 28 So Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to your neighbor, who is better than you. 29 Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

Exo 32: 11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Why is that?

But you believe that some are not able to respond with faith. I disagree with that.

To be right in what I understand the Word states, is that All men are sinners and all men do not seek after God. I also hold to the words of Ephesians 1:4-17; 2.

Those who reject the gospel and reject Christ are able to believe the gospel and put their faith in Him but are unwilling to do so and choose not to do so.

Able is an interesting word choice. Ability...Capability. All men thus are able, I would agree, however all men never avail themselves and thus all men reject

I was talking in terms of God calling people to repent. Why would He call someone to repent if the person was unable to do so?

Why do you reject my call to see the sovereignty of God within your believing? Why when Ephesians 2 declares that faith is a gift from God, you say it is not?

A man who has a refrigerator of food will not worry about going hungry. A man without food, thinks about it constantly. If one hears the Gospel and says don't need it, doesn't mean he was not able to hear it, nor understand it. Jesus came to save those who needed to be saved.

It's the same reason why men don't repent when they hear the Gospel, for you reject what I am say because you judge my words as being false... So too with none believers, for they judge the Gospel as also being false. Now read that carefully, I'm not calling you a non believer, I'm calling your actions to my presentation of the Sovereignty of God as not being received by you -- as in kind why some don't believe the call of the Gospel... You both don't agree with it. The the outcome but the action to the outcome.

Scripture clearly teaches that some of those who He calls to repent do not answer His call.

I agree but add to all men will not answer His call.

I'd like to know why you think He calls some to repent who are supposedly not even able to do so?

They are able, they reject, just like you are doing with my words. It's desire not ability

That is not true and not taught anywhere in scripture. I don't love the darkness over the light.

Well now you don't, if Christ is within you... but you were at one time before.

Read the following carefully:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You say all men love darkness over the light. That is clearly not true. I don't love darkness over the light. You don't love darkness over the light, do you? Jesus said some love darkness over the light but "he that doeth truth cometh to the light". If all love darkness over the light then who is "he that doeth truth" and "cometh to the light"? Whether to love darkness or the light is the choice that everyone must make and everyone is capable of coming to the light even though not all do because some choose not to do so.

Read the following carefully:

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[keyzer soze]

Just remembered one thing I wanted to bring to this discussion, how do I interpret passages like the following, in the spirit that God calls all to repent the same? So far I am halfway through the book of Samuel and I am yet to see the "fairness" that seems to crop up so often in these discussions. It sure seems that in the OT God saved who he wanted and killed who He wanted. Aren't these people in the OT going to have a bone to pick because they were ordered to be slaughtered and weren't at least given the law first and the option to sign up as a Jew?

1 Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

[Brother Mark]

Just remembered one thing I wanted to bring to this discussion, how do I interpret passages like the following, in the spirit that God calls all to repent the same? So far I am halfway through the book of Samuel and I am yet to see the "fairness" that seems to crop up so often in these discussions. It sure seems that in the OT God saved who he wanted and killed who He wanted. Aren't these people in the OT going to have a bone to pick because they were ordered to be slaughtered and weren't at least given the law first and the option to sign up as a Jew?

1 Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

It's not about fairness! Lord have mercy! None of us want fairness! However, one has to answer to God's love. Is He Love? Will Love provide a way for those he hates to be saved? Does God love his enemies?

Here's what Paul said about men that did not have the law.

Rom 2:14-16
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
NASU

and even more plain...

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASU


In both passages Paul talks about how God made it known to them inwardly.

Blessings,

Mark

PS... To your previous post... wait till you see all the times in scripture where it says God repented, relented, changed his mind, etc. IMO, God doesn't change his mind like a man does or for the same reasons. Check out Jer. 18 where God talks about what will cause him to relent.

[keyzer soze]

It's not about fairness! Lord have mercy! None of us want fairness! However, one has to answer to God's love. Is He Love? Will Love provide a way for those he hates to be saved? Does God love his enemies?

Here's what Paul said about men that did not have the law.

Rom 2:14-16
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
NASU

and even more plain...

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASU


In both passages Paul talks about how God made it known to them inwardly.

Blessings,

Mark

PS... To your previous post... wait till you see all the times in scripture where it says God repented, relented, changed his mind, etc. IMO, God doesn't change his mind like a man does or for the same reasons. Check out Jer. 18 where God talks about what will cause him to relent.

Yo Mark, I am NOT one that has ever made an issue of fairness, remember, I am the sovereignty guy! LOL.

What I mean is all the posts about God not being a respecter of persons and applying that to the concept that God can not choose. (which I believe is out of context)

My point is that I am not seeing any fairness in the OT... I am seeing God do what He wants to whomever He wants because all are guilty and He is Holy and He can have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy which also means He can show no mercy to whoever He wants not to show mercy to. These Israelites are idol worshiping fools 10 minutes after God leaves and yet God shows them mercy after mercy. These other "ites" that are around the promise land simply get wiped out, no questions asked, no chance to repent because God says so. It sure seems like God is using the sovereign card over the mercy to all card in the OT loud and clear. Just wondering what that means with regards to the gospel today. Has God flipped on this and now adopted a new set of rules that are more fair for everyone? I don't think so, but just wondering what the armenian thought process is on this.

[Brother Mark]

Yo Mark, I am NOT one that has ever made an issue of fairness, remember, I am the sovereignty guy! LOL.

What I mean is all the posts about God not being a respecter of persons and applying that to the concept that God can not choose. (which I believe is out of context)

My point is that I am not seeing any fairness in the OT... I am seeing God do what He wants to whomever He wants because all are guilty and He is Holy and He can have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy which also means He can show no mercy to whoever He wants not to show mercy to. These Israelites are idol worshiping fools 10 minutes after God leaves and yet God shows them mercy after mercy. These other "ites" that are around the promise land simply get wiped out, no questions asked, no chance to repent because God says so. It sure seems like God is using the sovereign card over the mercy to all card in the OT loud and clear. Just wondering what that means with regards to the gospel today. Has God flipped on this and now adopted a new set of rules that are more fair for everyone? I don't think so, but just wondering what the armenian thought process is on this.

But what about Romans 1 and 2? Paul explains that those nations DID have a chance to repent. God did reveal himself to them but they resisted.

God was merciful and patient with them too. He waited patiently before wiping them out. Had they repented according to their conscience and what God revealed to them (see Romans 1 and 2) they could have been spared the same way that Ruth was spared or that Rahab was spared.

For me, the crux will always come back to does God love those that hate him? Will love provide a way? I think the scriptures are full of verses that show God loves the entire world and that His Son died for them too. He wants them to be saved.

I don't see his love and his sovereignty at odds. I see them working together. That's why I believe all men CAN be saved and all men experience an INNER call. However, not all men believe.

[keyzer soze]

But what about Romans 1 and 2? Paul explains that those nations DID have a chance to repent. God did reveal himself to them but they resisted.

God was merciful and patient with them too. He waited patiently before wiping them out. Had they repented according to their conscience and what God revealed to them (see Romans 1 and 2) they could have been spared the same way that Ruth was spared or that Rahab was spared.

For me, the crux will always come back to does God love those that hate him? Will love provide a way? I think the scriptures are full of verses that show God loves the entire world and that His Son died for them too. He wants them to be saved.

I don't see his love and his sovereignty at odds. I see them working together. That's why I believe all men CAN be saved and all men experience an INNER call. However, not all men believe.

Some things I am thinking about as I read the OT.
1) If God didn't continue to personally intervene with miracles to hold Israel together, they would be like all the other horrid nations of their time.
2) Totally hear what you are saying above but isn't it interesting in the OT it seems that everything is on a NATION level and less personal. Yet when we talk about salvation/election, etc... today, its almost always on a personal level and not nation. While I hear what you are saying about God giving the nations time, Israel would have been going in and slaughtering children and youths. Does God hold these young people accountable for their ancestor's refusal to repent as a nation?
3) At times I am blown away that the OT is the same religion as what I hear at church. It comes across as very pagan like at times...
4) One thing that the OT is making bigger and bigger to me, that no matter how big I make sin, the big problem between sin and God is far HUGER then I can ever imagine. I think I take that for granted a lot. God not smiting us immediately when we sin is grace itself even if we don't believe/saved from grace. I believe this is "general grace" that Paul is talking about when he says that God holds up on judgement, even those who sinned pre-Christ were not judged immediately.

Now the interesting question/issue is can we learn anything about babies and their sinful nature based on God giving the order to wipe out even the babies multiple times in the bible.

Another thought. I found it strange that in 1 Sam 15 Saul decides to KEEP THE GOOD ANIMALS but slaughter all the human babies... there again I think their culture was far different then today where we put so much more importance on the individual.