Calvinism / pre-destination

[keyzer soze]

Jesus is 100% God. But when he was in human form, was he in all places at one time? God is omnipresent, but that's an attribute. Not his character.

Let me give a human example. Let's say a man is 6' tall, can run the 40 yard dash in 4.3 seconds, weighs 230 lbs and is muscular. He is smart and has a 4.0 GPA from a very prestigious school. Have I told you anything at all about the character of the man? No. But I have described his attributes.

Attributes are abilities that one has or the power one has etc. What profession will the man go into? How will he behave? What choices will he make? Will he play sports or will he go into the business world? How will he make his living? (Do you have enough information to know the answer to these questions?)

The questions above are rhetorical and no answer is needed. Just trying to explain attributes vs character. I didn't tell you about his character at all.

Character traits/desire/heart issues... the man is full of compassion. He deeply desires to help people. He loves helping the sick. Since he was a child, he has studied biology because of a great desire to help a family member who was sick. For fun, he played sports.

Attributes describe ability, what we can do, etc. Character describes who we are on the inside, our deepest heart felt convictions, who we are, etc.

When Jesus came, he laid aside some of his attributes, but none of his character. See what I mean?

With that in mind, does God make choices based on His attributes or based on His character (i.e. His heart)?

Grace to you,

Mark

I think with God it is impossible to separate the 2 because He is perfectly Holy.... God is God, He is Holy, everything that exists ever, exists because of His will. This mouse setting next to me on the mouse pad is inside of God's sovereign will. God knew the very keys that I would be hitting to type this reply BEFORE the English language existed... If any of this was OUTSIDE His will it would/could not exist. Now this does NOT mean God makes bad happen, etc.. etc... God clearly allows sin/bad to happen for a greater purpose, but it does exist which tells me it is within His will.

I am in the book of 1 Sam in my reading and found this verse interesting this morning: 10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul’s hand.

So at the very least I interpret that to mean that God allows an evil spirit to come upon Saul which then Saul sins trying to commit murder.... At first read this is not easy for me to understand how this makes sense... similarly to how could God not save all if He is doing the saving and not us... answer: I DON'T KNOW but I trust God that His ways are perfect and His purpose is perfect.

Got to go to a meeting...

[Brother Mark]

I think with God it is impossible to separate the 2 because He is perfectly Holy....

He separated them with Jesus, did he not? Was Jesus omnipresent? Now, in my question, I am not saying to separate the attributes from the character. What I am asking is which one motivates Him to do what He does?

God is God, He is Holy, everything that exists ever, exists because of His will. This mouse setting next to me on the mouse pad is inside of God's sovereign will. God knew the very keys that I would be hitting to type this reply BEFORE the English language existed... If any of this was OUTSIDE His will it would/could not exist. Now this does NOT mean God makes bad happen, etc.. etc... God clearly allows sin/bad to happen for a greater purpose, but it does exist which tells me it is within His will.

I have no issues with the above, depending on how you define "will". If it is God's will for Adam to sin, then we will disagree.

I am in the book of 1 Sam in my reading and found this verse interesting this morning: 10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul’s hand.

Indeed! Gives new meaning to the NT verse that says "Do not let the sun go down on your anger and do not give the devil a place". Saul got angry with David and the enemy found a place! And even more amazing to many believers, God put the enemy there! One of my favorite verses "Moab is my wash pot".

So at the very least I interpret that to mean that God allows an evil spirit to come upon Saul which then Saul sins trying to commit murder.... At first read this is not easy for me to understand how this makes sense... similarly to how could God not save all if He is doing the saving and not us... answer: I DON'T KNOW but I trust God that His ways are perfect and His purpose is perfect.

A good answer. IMO, we should be saying "I don't know" a lot more than we do. For what it's worth, I don't take it to be "allow". I think God was active in putting the spirit on Saul.

Got to go to a meeting...

OK. I look forward to continuing our discussion.

Grace to you,

Mark

[Gadgeteer]

Errors, I don't think anyone can find errors about a person's opinions.

Sure you can --- if what I say conflicts Scripture, then you would post the verses to show the contradiction. Suppose I was a Mormon and said "There are millions of gods" --- you would simply cite Isaiah43:10 and 45:5.

You claim the all to be conditional in 5:18 but not in other places.

No --- the "ALL" is not conditional, it is everyone, from God's side; the fulfillment is conditional. So it's justification of life to all (everyone), on the condition that each receives it.

I am sure others have different opinions. I have heard people claim that some of the ALL and EVERYONE to mean jews and gentiles because the jews thought Christ would be only for them. So ALL means men of every nation and race, not literally every human to them.

Can't be --- in Rom5:18-19 it's an exact equality. "SO THEN all, EVEN SO all". One all is the same as the other all.

Ties in with verse God is not a respecter of persons.

Yes --- but do we agree on how it ties in? In Acts10:34-35, God is not partial (no respecter) BUT ...the man who fears Him and does right is welcome. It's the same thing --- it's open to all, but one has to seek God, revere Him, and desire righteousness.

But you can see where this would have a different meaning then the 2 options that you seem to use which is either literally ALL or conditional ALL which can never get further then being an opinion.

It's not "conditioned all" --- it's "all everyone", which can be received or rejected.

It is not really the CAME that is conditional, from God's side the gift came to the exact same number as came condemnation; but a gift that "comes" to us, must still be receiveed. God provided to all, but it is the RECEIVE that is conditioned on men's choice.

This is all I have time for, you have far too many questions up there to get to before work. If you want to narrow something down to 1 or 2 questions I might have time during the work day today to address.

Well, you asked about Romans5:18 --- it was an excellent citation, we showed that "justification" CAME to the [u]same[u] people that condemnation came to. "All men" must mean "everyone", and that ruins the theme of the thread, "predestined-salvation".

We also read 1Cor15:22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. "
How many people died, with Adam? Everyone. But to BE truly condemned one must sin; everyone did (does).
How many people are made alive in Christ? Everyone. But to BE truly made-alive, one must receive it.

You see that condemnation came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (sin); so too justification came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (receiving Jesus)!

If you want to discuss one thing, how about Romans2? How can the audience be told:

"Do you not know that the patience and kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

How can we be told that God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but stubborn refusal stores wrath for ourselves? Where is the sovereign predestined-salvation in any of that? If we were predestined, then God LEADING would be irresistible; and those who stubbornly refuse could not have been lead.

Have a good day.

And you!

:-)

[keyzer soze]

He separated them with Jesus, did he not? Was Jesus omnipresent? Now, in my question, I am not saying to separate the attributes from the character. What I am asking is which one motivates Him to do what He does?

still not sure, i do not understand His ways because I can not see the end game. is there a passage that you are alluding to here?

I have no issues with the above, depending on how you define "will". If it is God's will for Adam to sin, then we will disagree.

It was God's plan that Adam sin before creation... if this is not the case what was Jesus going to redeem us from which was the plan before creation? God uses the fall and the sinful state of the earth and man to show his love/justice/mercy/etc.... for His glory. Without the fall think about all the attributes that would be invisible to the universe! Mercy? Love? Sacrifice?

Indeed! Gives new meaning to the NT verse that says "Do not let the sun go down on your anger and do not give the devil a place". Saul got angry with David and the enemy found a place! And even more amazing to many believers, God put the enemy there! One of my favorite verses "Moab is my wash pot".

A good answer. IMO, we should be saying "I don't know" a lot more than we do. For what it's worth, I don't take it to be "allow". I think God was active in putting the spirit on Saul.

I am the first to admit that (1) I haven't even read the entire bible yet cover to cover so there is much I don't know. (2) Peter fully recognized difficulty in Paul's writings in the first century as a man who walked with God for 3 years... zero % chance I will be able to grasp all this stuff with my tiny finite brain.

OK. I look forward to continuing our discussion.

Grace to you,

Mark

I will say this though. It has been great for me to participate in these type of discussions as I am reading through the bible because I am more sensitive to free-will vs. sovereignty then ever now! LOL... and as I read more and more I see a strong lean to God's sovereignty encapsulating man's free-will. That is to say that somehow man is free to choose but every choice fits perfectly within God's sovereign plan AND YES, man is still responsible. Pilate was responsible for his part in the crucifixion even though I believe it was God's plan and purpose that Pilate sentence Jesus to death. There was 0% chance that Pilate was going to change his mind and let Jesus walk without shedding His blood for us. Even Jesus recognizes this in his human state point blank to Pilate in their dialogue...

[Brother Mark]

still not sure, i do not understand His ways because I can not see the end game. is there a passage that you are alluding to here?

I am suggesting saying that we focus on the wrong thing. Do we focus on God's abilities or his heart? Jesus was not omni-present which is an attribute of God. But he did not lay aside the heart and character of God.

Look at this verse.

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

Jesus is the exact image of God! If you want to know God, then know Jesus. Jesus is the express image of God. But yet, Jesus was not omnipresent while he was on the earth! David tells us in the Psalms that God is omnipresent. So is it the attributes of God that God wished for us to see in Jesus? Or was it the character and heart of God he wished to express?

It was God's plan that Adam sin before creation... if this is not the case what was Jesus going to redeem us from which was the plan before creation? God uses the fall and the sinful state of the earth and man to show his love/justice/mercy/etc.... for His glory. Without the fall think about all the attributes that would be invisible to the universe! Mercy? Love? Sacrifice?

I disagree with you on this but I'll save it for another discussion. I will ask this though... if you encountered a mother that poisoned her children, so she could nurse them back to health, what would you think of her?

I am the first to admit that (1) I haven't even read the entire bible yet cover to cover so there is much I don't know. (2) Peter fully recognized difficulty in Paul's writings in the first century as a man who walked with God for 3 years... zero % chance I will be able to grasp all this stuff with my tiny finite brain.

IMO, we should leave mystery where the scriptures leave mystery. David said "I have not concerned myself with matters too great for me."

[keyzer soze]

I am suggesting saying that we focus on the wrong thing. Do we focus on God's abilities or his heart? Jesus was not omni-present which is an attribute of God. But he did not lay aside the heart and character of God.

Look at this verse.

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

Jesus is the exact image of God! If you want to know God, then know Jesus. Jesus is the express image of God. But yet, Jesus was not omnipresent while he was on the earth! David tells us in the Psalms that God is omnipresent. So is it the attributes of God that God wished for us to see in Jesus? Or was it the character and heart of God he wished to express?

I think I see what you are getting at but because we have scripture, including OT, we see the wrath of God as well. Also, even though Jesus was limited while here on earth, God the Father was always fully in control in heaven and Jesus was carrying out His will perfectly.

I disagree with you on this but I'll save it for another discussion. I will ask this though... if you encountered a mother that poisoned her children, so she could nurse them back to health, what would you think of her?

I think we crossed this road before and I think this is a loaded question. You are comparing a sinful Mom to God and that is not doable. I could go and cut and paste passages where God is ordering the destruction of all babies, women, and animals; God is putting plagues and suffering on people knowing fully well that it will NOT turn their hearts (Egypt), etc... If you were to take any of these acts of God and replace them with a human I would find wrong in all of them. However, that is because God is the creator of all and has the right to do whatever He wishes with whatever He wants.

IMO, we should leave mystery where the scriptures leave mystery. David said "I have not concerned myself with matters too great for me."

Question: Do you attribute health (life and death) to God or is that simply a function of free-will? Do you think Pontius Pilate would rather have died of a heart attack before he was to sentence Jesus to death on his judgment day and eternity after that? Jesus says that Pontius Pilate's position was within God's sovereignty, is a person's life-span within God's sovereignty? Could Pilate have been spared that horrible deed by dieing before that day or was he there out of an infinite series of free-willed choices?

[Brother Mark]

I think I see what you are getting at but because we have scripture, including OT, we see the wrath of God as well. Also, even though Jesus was limited while here on earth, God the Father was always fully in control in heaven and Jesus was carrying out His will perfectly.

But Jesus, even in his humble form, was the exact representation of God. All of God's character, and heart were revealed in Christ even if God's omnipresence was not.

So we can choose to see the part of God not reflected in Jesus as the part we focus on, or the fullness of God reflected in Jesus to focus on. IOW, I am saying the heart of God is what controls the will of God. Know his heart, and you will know his will. Know his character and you will know his will. Know his heart/character and you will see how he uses his sovereignty. His sovereignty does not defined what his character is like. He is sovereign in the same way he is angry. He has both. But they do not define him. His sovereignty is an attribute of being God. His character/heart is the driving force behind all he does.

I think we crossed this road before and I think this is a loaded question. You are comparing a sinful Mom to God and that is not doable. I could go and cut and paste passages where God is ordering the destruction of all babies, women, and animals; God is putting plagues and suffering on people knowing fully well that it will NOT turn their hearts (Egypt), etc... If you were to take any of these acts of God and replace them with a human I would find wrong in all of them. However, that is because God is the creator of all and has the right to do whatever He wishes with whatever He wants.

And I think you miss the point. God orders the destruction but not without cause!

Is love self seeking?

1 Cor 13:5

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
KJV

Jesus, in the perfect image of God, was humble. God himself is humble. Yet, we teach that he does things only for his own glory to the detriment of many others! Yet, Love does not act that way. Love does not seek it's own and God is love. Does Jesus and God love their enemies?

Jesus told us to love our enemies, will he do less?

Question: Do you attribute health (life and death) to God or is that simply a function of free-will? Do you think Pontius Pilate would rather have died of a heart attack before he was to sentence Jesus to death on his judgment day and eternity after that? Jesus says that Pontius Pilate's position was within God's sovereignty, is a person's life-span within God's sovereignty? Could Pilate have been spared that horrible deed by dieing before that day or was he there out of an infinite series of free-willed choices?

Well, I don't believe in free will. Man's will is limited. I agree that all that happens, happens within God's sovereignty. But I do not believe that all that happens happens as God is willing for it to happen. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's purpose/will for themselves. Within God's sovereignty, he allowed them to choose to do so.

Did God desire for Israel to go into the land the first time? Yes.

Jer 18:7-11
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."
NASU

I can speak of other instances in scripture where God wanted to do one thing or the other and man would not cooperate.

Did God warn Pilot? (Yes he did.) Could God have provided a way of escape to Pilot?

Start with love, for God is love, and the heart of God and understand sovereignty within that light. Start with sovereignty and ignore love and I think it leads to error.

Grace and peace

Mark

ps. One thing I think that can be overlooked is that salvation is just the beginning. Redemption is necessary because of the fall. But it is the beginning of the story not the end! Redemption is the birthing and that is only the start. There is so much more than just coming out of Egypt.

[keyzer soze]

Sure you can --- if what I say conflicts Scripture, then you would post the verses to show the contradiction. Suppose I was a Mormon and said "There are millions of gods" --- you would simply cite Isaiah43:10 and 45:5. No --- the "ALL" is not conditional, it is everyone, from God's side; the fulfillment is conditional. So it's justification of life to all (everyone), on the condition that each receives it.Can't be --- in Rom5:18-19 it's an exact equality. "SO THEN all, EVEN SO all". One all is the same as the other all. Yes --- but do we agree on how it ties in? In Acts10:34-35, God is not partial (no respecter) BUT ...the man who fears Him and does right is welcome. It's the same thing --- it's open to all, but one has to seek God, revere Him, and desire righteousness. It's not "conditioned all" --- it's "all everyone", which can be received or rejected.

It is not really the CAME that is conditional, from God's side the gift came to the exact same number as came condemnation; but a gift that "comes" to us, must still be receiveed. God provided to all, but it is the RECEIVE that is conditioned on men's choice. Well, you asked about Romans5:18 --- it was an excellent citation, we showed that "justification" CAME to the [u]same[u] people that condemnation came to. "All men" must mean "everyone", and that ruins the theme of the thread, "predestined-salvation".

We also read 1Cor15:22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. "
How many people died, with Adam? Everyone. But to BE truly condemned one must sin; everyone did (does).
How many people are made alive in Christ? Everyone. But to BE truly made-alive, one must receive it.

You see that condemnation came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (sin); so too justification came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (receiving Jesus)!

If you want to discuss one thing, how about Romans2? How can the audience be told:

"Do you not know that the patience and kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

How can we be told that God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but stubborn refusal stores wrath for ourselves? Where is the sovereign predestined-salvation in any of that? If we were predestined, then God LEADING would be irresistible; and those who stubbornly refuse could not have been lead.

And you!

:-)

I understand that kindness and patience can lead to salvation because God does not IMMEDIATELY judge the sinner. The wages of sin is DEATH, both spiritual and physical; however, because of God's kindness to ALL (some call this general grace) God has mercy on all and does not immediately end our lives upon sin which He would be just in doing. Doing this He allows time for a heart to come back to him and repent. This again is all attributed to Jesus on the cross.

[keyzer soze]

But Jesus, even in his humble form, was the exact representation of God. All of God's character, and heart were revealed in Christ even if God's omnipresence was not.

So we can choose to see the part of God not reflected in Jesus as the part we focus on, or the fullness of God reflected in Jesus to focus on. IOW, I am saying the heart of God is what controls the will of God. Know his heart, and you will know his will. Know his character and you will know his will. Know his heart/character and you will see how he uses his sovereignty. His sovereignty does not defined what his character is like. He is sovereign in the same way he is angry. He has both. But they do not define him. His sovereignty is an attribute of being God. His character/heart is the driving force behind all he does.



And I think you miss the point. God orders the destruction but not without cause!

Is love self seeking?

1 Cor 13:5

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
KJV

Jesus, in the perfect image of God, was humble. God himself is humble. Yet, we teach that he does things only for his own glory to the detriment of many others! Yet, Love does not act that way. Love does not seek it's own and God is love. Does Jesus and God love their enemies?

Jesus told us to love our enemies, will he do less?

Well, I don't believe in free will. Man's will is limited. I agree that all that happens, happens within God's sovereignty. But I do not believe that all that happens happens as God is willing for it to happen. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's purpose/will for themselves. Within God's sovereignty, he allowed them to choose to do so.

Did God desire for Israel to go into the land the first time? Yes.

Jer 18:7-11
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."
NASU

I can speak of other instances in scripture where God wanted to do one thing or the other and man would not cooperate.

Did God warn Pilot? (Yes he did.) Could God have provided a way of escape to Pilot?

Start with love, for God is love, and the heart of God and understand sovereignty within that light. Start with sovereignty and ignore love and I think it leads to error.

Grace and peace

Mark

ps. One thing I think that can be overlooked is that salvation is just the beginning. Redemption is necessary because of the fall. But it is the beginning of the story not the end! Redemption is the birthing and that is only the start. There is so much more than just coming out of Egypt.

Well we both agree that man's "free-will" is inside God's sovereignty and then that is about all the further I think I know how to discuss before leaving theology and entering pure philosophy. When it comes to philosophy I fully admit I am simply throwing my theories at you at that point based on what my tiny brain can reconcile as making sense of hard truths. I agree that there seems to be a "moral will" or some call it "desire" that doesn't line up with God's sovereign will. I believe the most likely reason to this is because we don't know the whole truth and we are finite. It's like when I deal with my nephews and I wont let them do something that they really want to do and the answer I give makes little sense because to them it is conflicting with other things they have heard me say in the past. It's because I know more and I can't make them understand with their maturity level and lack of world experience no matter how hard I try. I believe this is an analogy to the disconnect between God's "desire" and His "sovereign will" (which I define as whatever comes to be because NOTHING happens outside of God's sovereign will because He is sovereign)

That is all the more I have. Perhaps in a few years and more study I will have a better understanding of this "love" angle that I have seen you pitch out there on a few occasions now that seems to be missing me on this issue. At the end of the day there seems to be a paradox: God is sovereign + God desires all to be saved + Some go to hell = Doesn't easily add up in my mind. I think a number of people believe that my definition of sovereignty is what is amiss and I get their point however I have thought it through and that creates many MORE problems then fixes them in my opinion. If God is not sovereign like I understand then this verse becomes neutered: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

we know: we should be confident in this because it is fact
that in all things: where do you draw the line on all things? to me this is HUGE, really huge and I take it to me ALL THINGS
God works: sounds like something happening outside of human free-will to me
the good: so ALL THINGS are working for GOOD
of those who love him: so is God limited to working through believers only, nature only or ALL THINGS?
who have been called: so those who love him have been called (wait, hasn't everyone been called equally so what does this mean?)
according to his purpose: so some have been called according to HIS PURPOSE

So God is calling some for HIS PURPOSE and He works out EVERYTHING for the good of those He calls. I can not process this verse in any way, shape or form with the concept that ANYTHING can happen outside of God's sovereign plan and still have any clue what this means, or how to trust Him.

[Brother Mark]

Well we both agree that man's "free-will" is inside God's sovereignty and then that is about all the further I think I know how to discuss before leaving theology and entering pure philosophy.

I think some reformers' definition of sovereign will is philosophical and not theological. For instance, does God love all men? I can show you verses that says he does. Did Jesus die for all men? I can show you verses that says he does. Does he desire for all men to be saved? I can show you verses that says he does. Is he willing that any should perish? I can show you verses that state he is not willing.

See what I mean? But we go so far in defining sovereignty that we totally eliminate half of scripture! IMO, at that point, it becomes a philosophy.

When it comes to philosophy I fully admit I am simply throwing my theories at you at that point based on what my tiny brain can reconcile as making sense of hard truths. I agree that there seems to be a "moral will" or some call it "desire" that doesn't line up with God's sovereign will.

I think they do line up. For instance, I think God is in control. But I do not think he is controlling. Sovereignty is not controlling. I don't think scripture defines it that way.

I believe the most likely reason to this is because we don't know the whole truth and we are finite. It's like when I deal with my nephews and I wont let them do something that they really want to do and the answer I give makes little sense because to them it is conflicting with other things they have heard me say in the past. It's because I know more and I can't make them understand with their maturity level and lack of world experience no matter how hard I try.

Agreed. Better to say "I don't know" than to make bold statements that take out half of scripture.

I believe this is an analogy to the disconnect between God's "desire" and His "sovereign will" (which I define as whatever comes to be because NOTHING happens outside of God's sovereign will because He is sovereign)

I am not convinced that is what scriptural sovereignty means. For instance, is God sovereign in Jeremiah 18 when he states that he gives man a choice?

Jer 18:7-11
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."
NASU

Of course he is sovereign. Then doesn't it make sense to incorporate that God gave man a choice into our definition of sovereignty?

That is all the more I have. Perhaps in a few years and more study I will have a better understanding of this "love" angle that I have seen you pitch out there on a few occasions now that seems to be missing me on this issue. At the end of the day there seems to be a paradox: God is sovereign + God desires all to be saved + Some go to hell = Doesn't easily add up in my mind. I think a number of people believe that my definition of sovereignty is what is amiss and I get their point however I have thought it through and that creates many MORE problems then fixes them in my opinion. If God is not sovereign like I understand then this verse becomes neutered: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

I don't think it neuters that verse. Does that definition of sovereignty neuter other verses?

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

Did Jesus die for the whole world?

we know: we should be confident in this because it is fact
that in all things: where do you draw the line on all things? to me this is HUGE, really huge and I take it to me ALL THINGS

When looking into eternity, it makes complete sense. If you are beheaded for Christ, can God cause that to work to your good? Of course! But does that same sovereignty mean he cannot love all men to the point of offering his Son for them?

God works: sounds like something happening outside of human free-will to me

Depends. Sometimes he works within the human will.

the good: so ALL THINGS are working for GOOD
of those who love him: so is God limited to working through believers only, nature only or ALL THINGS?
who have been called: so those who love him have been called (wait, hasn't everyone been called equally so what does this mean?)
according to his purpose: so some have been called according to HIS PURPOSE

So God is calling some for HIS PURPOSE and He works out EVERYTHING for the good of those He calls. I can not process this verse in any way, shape or form with the concept that ANYTHING can happen outside of God's sovereign plan and have any clue what this means or how to trust Him.

Does the fault then lie within the scripture or within our ability to process it? Will you throw out all the scripture of love, dying for the ungodly, desiring that all may be saved, dying for our sins and the sins of the world, because you can't process another verse? Just askin'.

Grace to you brother KS.

Mark

[keyzer soze]

I think some reformers' definition of sovereign will is philosophical and not theological. For instance, does God love all men? I can show you verses that says he does. Did Jesus die for all men? I can show you verses that says he does. Does he desire for all men to be saved? I can show you verses that says he does. Is he willing that any should perish? I can show you verses that state he is not willing.

See what I mean? But we go so far in defining sovereignty that we totally eliminate half of scripture! IMO, at that point, it becomes a philosophy.



I think they do line up. For instance, I think God is in control. But I do not think he is controlling. Sovereignty is not controlling. I don't think scripture defines it that way.



Agreed. Better to say "I don't know" than to make bold statements that take out half of scripture.



I am not convinced that is what scriptural sovereignty means. For instance, is God sovereign in Jeremiah 18 when he states that he gives man a choice?

Jer 18:7-11
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."
NASU

Of course he is sovereign. Then doesn't it make sense to incorporate that God gave man a choice into our definition of sovereignty?



I don't think it neuters that verse. Does that definition of sovereignty neuter other verses?

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

Did Jesus die for the whole world?



When looking into eternity, it makes complete sense. If you are beheaded for Christ, can God cause that to work to your good? Of course! But does that same sovereignty mean he cannot love all men to the point of offering his Son for them?



Depends. Sometimes he works within the human will.



Does the fault then lie within the scripture or within our ability to process it? Will you throw out all the scripture of love, dying for the ungodly, desiring that all may be saved, dying for our sins and the sins of the world, because you can't process another verse? Just askin'.

Grace to you brother KS.

Mark

Of course not. I have never said to throw any scripture out nor would I. You are making me think I should not be posting here because I fully agree that I do NOT have all the answers and at times feel far over my head. However, being that it is BELIEF that saves I can not throw out what "computes in my brain" for the theology of another person's even if I recognize that they are far more studied than I. (well actually I did that for a long time called RCC only to have someone tell me that my personal faith has huge consequences and then I went into a frenzy of questions! LOL)

So to sum things up I form my definition of these core questions and answers:

Does God learn? NO
Did God know everything before creation? YES
Does God have a plan or is He a watcher like us and reactionary? He had/has a plan
Is God perfect? Yes
Is God's plan perfect? Yes

Baaah, I am out of time and have to go but I think you see where I am going here. God knows all, controls all (because He creates all), is perfect, is Holy, etc.... therefore EVERYTHING that happens, happens inside the WILL OF GOD or guess what, it would never happen because He is the creator of all! Everything is for the glory of Him.

[Brother Mark]

Of course not. I have never said to throw any scripture out nor would I. You are making me think I should not be posting here because I fully agree that I do NOT have all the answers and at times feel far over my head.

on the contrary! I would to God that we all "didn't have the all the answers" even more. I just wish we would leave mystery where scriptures leaves it.

However, being that it is BELIEF that saves I can not throw out what "computes in my brain" for the theology of another person's even if I recognize that they are far more studied than I.

Well, I wouldn't ask you to do that. What I would ask is that if the other verses don't compute under the belief system, to question the system, not the verses. That's what I keep driving at.

(well actually I did that for a long time called RCC only to have someone tell me that my personal faith has huge consequences and then I went into a frenzy of questions! LOL)

Oh yea. I have my own story about that but it wasn't the RCC. It was another denomination!

So to sum things up I form my definition of these core questions and answers:

Does God learn? NO
Did God know everything before creation? YES

Agreed.

[Does God have a plan or is He a watcher like us and reactionary? He had/has a plan

I think Jeremiah 18 shows he has a plan. One that offers man a choice. If man responds right God said he would do one thing and if man responds wrong, God says he will respond another way. He's still in control and still sovereign and even though He Himself says he offers a choice, he does not say he gives up his sovereignty in offering the choice.

Jer 18:7-10
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

What's his plan in Jeremiah 18? To give man a choice.

Is God perfect? Yes
Is God's plan perfect? Yes

Agreed.

Baaah, I am out of time and have to go but I think you see where I am going here. God knows all, controls all (because He creates all), is perfect, is Holy, etc.... therefore EVERYTHING that happens, happens inside the WILL OF GOD or guess what, it would never happen because He is the creator of all! Everything is for the glory of Him.

Is it his will that any perish? No (see 2 Peter 3:9). But it is his will that they can choose to perish. So no one perishes outside the will of God but then, no one perishes BECAUSE it's the will of God either.

Grace to you!

Mark

[keyzer soze]

on the contrary! I would to God that we all "didn't have the all the answers" even more. I just wish we would leave mystery where scriptures leaves it.



Well, I wouldn't ask you to do that. What I would ask is that if the other verses don't compute under the belief system, to question the system, not the verses. That's what I keep driving at.



Oh yea. I have my own story about that but it wasn't the RCC. It was another denomination!



Agreed.



I think Jeremiah 18 shows he has a plan. One that offers man a choice. If man responds right God said he would do one thing and if man responds wrong, God says he will respond another way. He's still in control and still sovereign and even though He Himself says he offers a choice, he does not say he gives up his sovereignty in offering the choice.

Jer 18:7-10
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

What's his plan in Jeremiah 18? To give man a choice.



Agreed.



Is it his will that any perish? No (see 2 Peter 3:9). But it is his will that they can choose to perish. So no one perishes outside the will of God but then, no one perishes BECAUSE it's the will of God either.

Grace to you!

Mark

So let me simply try to paraphrase you to try to dumb this down so I can understand what you are saying: "People will perish in hell OUTSIDE of God's will?" Am I understanding you correctly in this? God's will is to save all but man's free-will trumps God's will?

[Brother Mark]

So let me simply try to paraphrase you to try to dumb this down so I can understand what you are saying: "People will perish in hell OUTSIDE of God's will?" Am I understanding you correctly in this? God's will is to save all but man's free-will trumps God's will?

What I am saying is this...

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

I believe the verse as written.

I also believe this verse...

1 John 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

And I believe this verse...

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

and I believe this one.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV

Instead of giving a lot of commentary at this point, I just want to post verses.

Finally, I believe these two old testament verses about the death of the wicked.

Ezek 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
KJV

and

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV


In our efforts to understand, we will often come up with a belief system and say "I believe this scripture really means something else" and instead of saying "I believe the scripture but don't understand how to reconcile them".

I prefer to say "I believe the verses but am not always able to understand how to reconcile them." I finish with this verse.

Ps 131:1

131 Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
KJV

[keyzer soze]

Is my question a loaded question? I get the verses, I am studying/reading the bible, however the crux of the issue comes down to my question I believe based on how you interpret the verses.

Are you suggesting that the verses above say that people will perish in hell OUTSIDE of God's will? Am I understanding you correctly in this? God's will is to save all but man's free-will trumps God's will and thus God's will can't come to be because of man's free-will doesn't allow it?