Sure you can --- if what I say conflicts Scripture, then you would post the verses to show the contradiction. Suppose I was a Mormon and said "There are millions of gods" --- you would simply cite Isaiah43:10 and 45:5.
Originally Posted by keyzer soze
No --- the "ALL" is not conditional, it is everyone, from God's side; the fulfillment is conditional. So it's justification of life to all (everyone), on the condition that each receives it.
You claim the all to be conditional in 5:18 but not in other places.
Can't be --- in Rom5:18-19 it's an exact equality. "SO THEN all, EVEN SO all". One all is the same as the other all.
I am sure others have different opinions. I have heard people claim that some of the ALL and EVERYONE to mean jews and gentiles because the jews thought Christ would be only for them. So ALL means men of every nation and race, not literally every human to them.
Yes --- but do we agree on how it ties in? In Acts10:34-35, God is not partial (no respecter) BUT ...the man who fears Him and does right is welcome. It's the same thing --- it's open to all, but one has to seek God, revere Him, and desire righteousness.
Ties in with verse God is not a respecter of persons.
It's not "conditioned all" --- it's "all everyone", which can be received or rejected.
But you can see where this would have a different meaning then the 2 options that you seem to use which is either literally ALL or conditional ALL which can never get further then being an opinion.
It is not really the CAME that is conditional, from God's side the gift came to the exact same number as came condemnation; but a gift that "comes" to us, must still be receiveed. God provided to all, but it is the RECEIVE that is conditioned on men's choice.
Well, you asked about Romans5:18 --- it was an excellent citation, we showed that "justification" CAME to the [u]same[u] people that condemnation came to. "All men" must mean "everyone", and that ruins the theme of the thread, "predestined-salvation".
This is all I have time for, you have far too many questions up there to get to before work. If you want to narrow something down to 1 or 2 questions I might have time during the work day today to address.
We also read 1Cor15:22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. "
How many people died, with Adam? Everyone. But to BE truly condemned one must sin; everyone did (does).
How many people are made alive in Christ? Everyone. But to BE truly made-alive, one must receive it.
You see that condemnation came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (sin); so too justification came to everyone, and it requires active conscious participation (receiving Jesus)!
If you want to discuss one thing, how about Romans2? How can the audience be told:
"Do you not know that the patience and kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
How can we be told that God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but stubborn refusal stores wrath for ourselves? Where is the sovereign predestined-salvation in any of that? If we were predestined, then God LEADING would be irresistible; and those who stubbornly refuse could not have been lead.