Calvinism / pre-destination

[Brother Mark]

Is my question a loaded question? I get the verses, I am studying/reading the bible, however the crux of the issue comes down to my question I believe based on how you interpret the verses.

Are you suggesting that the verses above say that people will perish in hell OUTSIDE of God's will? Am I understanding you correctly in this? God's will is to save all but man's free-will trumps God's will and thus God's will can't come to be because of man's free-will doesn't allow it?

OK, I will give you a straight answer with the verse and the Greek word first.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

The word "willing" in that verse is the Greek word

NT:1014 boulomai (boo'-lom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb.; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is not God's will that any should perish according to the scriptures in 2 Peter 3:9.

However, we also know it is God's will that man decide according to Jeremiah 18.

And we know that it is God's will that if man doesn't believe, that he perish according to numerous scriptures.

So which part of his will is greater? He wills them all and I can provide verses to show it. If I pick or choose to lean too far in one direction on these scriptural principles, then I fall out of line with scripture.

Thing is, if a verse doesn't line up with our theology, are we going to believe it?

[Redeemed by Grace]

OK, I will give you a straight answer with the verse and the Greek word first.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

The word "willing" in that verse is the Greek word

NT:1014 boulomai (boo'-lom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb.; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is not God's will that any should perish according to the scriptures in 2 Peter 3:9.

Err... ummm... It is God's desire, not will....

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[1014] boulomai; a prim. vb.; to will:--am(1), desire(2), desires(1), desiring(1), intend(1), intended(3), intending(1), like(1), planned(1), unwilling*(1), want(7), wanted(3), wanting(2), will(1), willing(3), wills(3), wish(1), wished(1), wishes(1), wishing(3).
However, we also know it is God's will that man decide according to Jeremiah 18.

Matthew 6B Your will [2307] be done,

thelêma; from 2309; will:--desire(1), desires(1), will(57).


Will is not the primary usage for boulomia, thus desire is distinct than will.

[Brother Mark]

Err... ummm... It is God's desire, not will....

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

I am aware that some translations translate it as "wish". However, we also have this verse that uses the same exact word.

Luke 10:22

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
KJV

and this one

Luke 22:42

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
KJV

The Greek states "will".

But even if we change it to desire, we now have a conflict within God where his will and his desire are diametrically opposed to one another with no hope of reconciliation.

Thing is, we still need to interpret scripture as it concerns God's heart and character. He uses his sovereignty out of his character not the other way around. God's sovereignty doesn't determine his purposes or his character. His character uses his sovereignty.

Grace to you,

Mark

[keyzer soze]

Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
KJV
Mark

Interesting how the above verse has 2 different wills in the same verse....

[Brother Mark]

Interesting how the above verse has 2 different wills in the same verse....

It does. And it is interesting. Anyway, you be blessed my friend. Hey, did you ever check out those books by Spurgeon? He's one of my all time favorites. I actually remember thanking God so much for that book on "All of Grace". I even asked the Lord to go over and tell Brother Spurgeon how much I enjoyed it and how helpful it was to me. I thanked God so much for it and wanted him to pass along my thanksgiving to the dear brother! LOL!

Grace to you KS.

Mark

[Gadgeteer]

It was God's plan that Adam sin before creation...

Huh??? God "wanted/ordained/planned" for Adam to sin??? God, in whom there is no sin? I very strongly disagree. Even satan had free will, and was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him.

if this is not the case what was Jesus going to redeem us from which was the plan before creation?

God foresaw the future, but did not for-ordain it.

God uses the fall and the sinful state of the earth and man to show his love/justice/mercy/etc.... for His glory. Without the fall think about all the attributes that would be invisible to the universe! Mercy? Love? Sacrifice?

Do you think the "fall" was a good thing?

I am the first to admit that (1) I haven't even read the entire bible yet cover to cover so there is much I don't know. (2) Peter fully recognized difficulty in Paul's writings in the first century as a man who walked with God for 3 years... zero % chance I will be able to grasp all this stuff with my tiny finite brain.

I will say this though. It has been great for me to participate in these type of discussions as I am reading through the bible because I am more sensitive to free-will vs. sovereignty then ever now! LOL... and as I read more and more I see a strong lean to God's sovereignty encapsulating man's free-will.

Seriously? When we've discussed every verse thought to assert "sovereign predestination", and shown they do not?

I have failed you, Grasshopper.

That is to say that somehow man is free to choose but every choice fits perfectly within God's sovereign plan AND YES, man is still responsible.

"Responsible", dictionary definition, is "Accountable as CAUSE for somemthing within one's power and control". Do you believe our choice is within our power and control? Can anyone choose other than as God ordains?

Pilate was responsible for his part in the crucifixion even though I believe it was God's plan and purpose that Pilate sentence Jesus to death. There was 0% chance that Pilate was going to change his mind and let Jesus walk without shedding His blood for us. Even Jesus recognizes this in his human state point blank to Pilate in their dialogue...

If a place a penny on the railroad track, do I have any part in making the train flatten it? Likewise --- when Jesus was put in a time and place where He would be crucified, did God have any part in the murderers' hearts?

I understand that kindness and patience can lead to salvation because God does not IMMEDIATELY judge the sinner. The wages of sin is DEATH, both spiritual and physical; however, because of God's kindness to ALL (some call this general grace) God has mercy on all and does not immediately end our lives upon sin which He would be just in doing.

Do you believe He presents two kinds of mercy, a "general mercy on ALL which does not lead to salvation", and a "special mercy on the SOVEREIGNLY-ELECT"?

Doing this He allows time for a heart to come back to Him and repent.

Who actually makes the decision for a heart to "come back to Him and repent"?

This again is all attributed to Jesus on the cross.

Right. But --- "Jesus on the Cross", for whom? Those WHO believe? Or for those whom God fore-chose?

Who makes the decision?

God knows all, controls all (because He creates all), is perfect, is Holy, etc....

He does not control all; He has nothing to do with bad-angels, else (Matt12:25-31).

therefore EVERYTHING that happens, happens inside the WILL OF GOD or guess what, it would never happen because He is the creator of all! Everything is for the glory of Him.

Will you please explain how that statement fits with Ezekiel 18:23?

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord God, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?"

What does God want for the wicked? And what does He ordain?

Thanx again for your thoughtful responses.

[keyzer soze]

It does. And it is interesting. Anyway, you be blessed my friend. Hey, did you ever check out those books by Spurgeon? He's one of my all time favorites. I actually remember thanking God so much for that book on "All of Grace". I even asked the Lord to go over and tell Brother Spurgeon how much I enjoyed it and how helpful it was to me. I thanked God so much for it and wanted him to pass along my thanksgiving to the dear brother! LOL!

Grace to you KS.

Mark

no, haven't had time yet. Is this the book? http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

you have me pumped to check it out. right now i am struggling for free time. i should probably bail on this site and pour that time into reading but i enjoy this interaction.

what do you think this passage means if God's sovereign will doesn't encompass all of man's free-will?

Acts 4:27-28
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

[Gadgeteer]

OK, I will give you a straight answer with the verse and the Greek word first.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

Those who hold to "Predestined-Salvation" generally understand it as:

"God does not decree to perish any-of-those-He's-decreed-not-perish, but patiently waits for those to repent whom He's ordained TO repent and their TIME of repentance".

Would YOU write something like that? I sure wouldn't; and I don't think Peter would either...

The word "willing" in that verse is the Greek word

NT:1014 boulomai (boo'-lom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb.; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is not God's will that any should perish according to the scriptures in 2 Peter 3:9.

However, we also know it is God's will that man decide according to Jeremiah 18.

Jer 18:8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.

It sure doesn't sound like God makes the decision, does it!

And we know that it is God's will that if man doesn't believe, that he perish according to numerous scriptures.

So which part of his will is greater? He wills them all and I can provide verses to show it. If I pick or choose to lean too far in one direction on these scriptural principles, then I fall out of line with scripture.

Thing is, if a verse doesn't line up with our theology, are we going to believe it?

Touche'! Very good post, again!

:-)

[keyzer soze]

Huh??? God "wanted/ordained/planned" for Adam to sin??? God, in whom there is no sin? I very strongly disagree. Even satan had free will, and was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him. God foresaw the future, but did not for-ordain it. Do you think the "fall" was a good thing?
Seriously? When we've discussed every verse thought to assert "sovereign predestination", and shown they do not?

I have failed you, Grasshopper. "Responsible", dictionary definition, is "Accountable as CAUSE for somemthing within one's power and control". Do you believe our choice is within our power and control? Can anyone choose other than God ordains? If a place a penny on the railroad track, do I have any part in making the train flatten it? Likewise --- when Jesus was put in a time and place where He would be crucified, did God have any part in the murderers' hearts?
Do you believe He presents two kinds of mercy, a "general mercy on ALL which does not lead to salvation", and a "special mercy on the SOVEREIGNLY-ELECT"? Who actually makes the decision for a heart to "come back to Him and repent"? Right. But --- "Jesus on the Cross", for whom? Those WHO believe? Or for those whom God fore-chose?

Who makes the decision?
He does not control all; He has nothing to do with bad-angels, else (Matt12:25-31). Will you please explain how that statement fits with Ezekiel 18:23?

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord God, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?"

What does God want for the wicked? And what does He ordain?

Thanx again for your thoughtful responses.

My use of the word CONTROLS all is probably bad, I want to take it back! LOL

Do you believe there are any christian, moral judges? If so do you think there has ever been one who has had to pronounce the death penalty to someone? If the answer is YES/YES and you were to interview them and ask them if they desired to sentence someone to death would their answer have to be YES? If they said NO wouldn't you come back with, "yeah but you had the power to not do it!"....

What is you interviewed Harry S. Truman and asked him if he desired to kill thousands of people with the bomb.... do you think he would say YES? If he said no would you reply back and call him a liar because surely he did because he ordered to drop the bomb?

I believe God can have a desire for option A but because of a greater plan choose to go a different direction but the desire is real and true for option A. What do you think?

[keyzer soze]

It does. And it is interesting. Anyway, you be blessed my friend. Hey, did you ever check out those books by Spurgeon? He's one of my all time favorites. I actually remember thanking God so much for that book on "All of Grace". I even asked the Lord to go over and tell Brother Spurgeon how much I enjoyed it and how helpful it was to me. I thanked God so much for it and wanted him to pass along my thanksgiving to the dear brother! LOL!

Grace to you KS.

Mark

Wow, I just read chapter 7 and that was GREAT! I struggle so often with my pathetic faith and these words are encouraging. Thanks for the suggestion friend! I will read chapter 8 tomorrow if/when I get time.

[Brother Mark]

no, haven't had time yet. Is this the book? http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

you have me pumped to check it out. right now i am struggling for free time. i should probably bail on this site and pour that time into reading but i enjoy this interaction.

It was an encouraging word for me, though it may not be for everyone. I bought a bunch of copies and passed them out but it didn't impact my friends like it did me.

what do you think this passage means if God's sovereign will doesn't encompass all of man's free-will?

Acts 4:27-28
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

I would take it in accordance with this verse too.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

The word "purpose" is the same word in both verses. Also, I would go back to Jeremiah 18 where God said he would prophesy over a country but would relent if the people repented or sinned depending on the prophetic word.

Finally, I would say that there is never a shortage of evil for God to use to accomplish his purposes. He does not have to have one man do it or another man do it.

Why would I do that? Because I start with God's love and his character knowing that he uses His sovereignty to accomplish what his heart wills. But his will comes from His character. IOW, God is not in bondage to His will nor His sovereignty. He uses them. They do not define them.

I would also say that God uses the will of man. It was the will of the chaldeans to war against Isreal. God used that. It was in Samsons heart to go after a Philistine wife and God stirred up that desire. he uses sin and evil in us to accomplish his purpose. One Psalm says it this way "Moab is my wash pot." God uses evil to judge and as a rod of correction on the righteous.

Finally, I would say that verse does not say he purposes to let some go to hell without calling them to Himself and graciously enabling them to believe. God can purpose many things and does so. But that does not mean he purposes to allow people to burn in hell forever without lifting a finger to help them avoid the fire.


Grace and peace,

Mark

[Brother Mark]

I believe God can have a desire for option A but because of a greater plan choose to go a different direction but the desire is real and true for option A. What do you think?

Do you believe a greater purpose is had in God purposing people to hell? Is that what Love does? Doesn't Love send his Son to die for the sins of the world? Not for our sins but the sins of the whole world?

[Gadgeteer]

It was an encouraging word for me, though it may not be for everyone. I bought a bunch of copies and passed them out but it didn't impact my friends like it did me.

With respect, why would you be impacted by (and promote) an author who is a "died-in-the-wool" Predestinationist? I do like what Spurgeon said in a sermon "Warrant of Faith":

If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.

This calls to mind Matt9:13-14, where Jesus came for the sick --- who (if not monergistically regenerated) purportedly cannot respond, and who (if regenerated) are righteous already and do not need Jesus.

Finally, I would say that there is never a shortage of evil for God to use to accomplish his purposes. He does not have to have one man do it or another man do it.

God uses evil? What purpose does God have for evil, and how does that idea not violate Matt12:25-31?

Finally, I would say that verse does not say he purposes to let some go to hell without calling them to Himself and graciously enabling them to believe. God can purpose many things and does so. But that does not mean he purposes to allow people to burn in hell forever without lifting a finger to help them avoid the fire.

In all of Scripture I've never seen anything where God wants/ordains/decrees anyone to be sinful or to perish. He truly opens the gates of Heaven for all who will enter Jesus-the-door.

[Gadgeteer]

My use of the word CONTROLS all is probably bad, I want to take it back! LOL

Alright, allowed this one time.

Do you believe there are any christian, moral judges? If so do you think there has ever been one who has had to pronounce the death penalty to someone? If the answer is YES/YES and you were to interview them and ask them if they desired to sentence someone to death would their answer have to be YES? If they said NO wouldn't you come back with, "yeah but you had the power to not do it!"....

The concept of "justice" requires a person to be executed; God is perfect, and perfectly just -- those who perish do so only because of their own choice to do so (choice not to believe --- Jn3;18, 1Jn5:10).

What if you interviewed Harry S. Truman and asked him if he desired to kill thousands of people with the bomb.... do you think he would say YES? If he said no would you reply back and call him a liar because surely he did because he ordered to drop the bomb?

The choice was not "to kill thousands of people with the bomb" --- the choice was "to kill thousands of people with the bomb, OR to kill MILLIONS of soldiers and Japanese with a conventional attack. It was a no-brainer.

I very highly recommend the movie, "The Great Raid". Two things about a conventional attack --- all prisoners were ordered executed the moment American boots hit Japanese soil, and the Japanese would have fought to the death; it would have made "D-Day" look like a picnic.

I believe God can have a desire for option A but because of a greater plan choose to go a different direction but the desire is real and true for option A. What do you think?

The bottom line is that God does not choose where people go -- each chooses for himself. We read passages like Deut30:11-20 with Romans10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31, proving that God overcomes "total inability" enough that each can believe. We read Romans2:4-8 where God leads everyone to repentance, but each can choose to pursue sin instead and perish.

God is perfect, and perfectly just; Romans3:26 says His justice is in response to our faith:

"God is just and justifier of he WHO has faith in Jesus."

So, two things which make this discussion important --- God loved the world that He sent the Son not to condemn the world but that the world should be saved (whosoever believes), each person must have the choice or God coud not be just and could not run a Final Judgment.

...the second thing is that the belief which saves us, is not a one-time-event. We are admonished to "be renewed/regenerated" (Eph4:22-24), to "be renewed" (Rom12:2), to "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18), to "be reconciled to God" (2Cor5:20). That is a "constant-thang"....

[Brother Mark]

With respect, why would you be impacted by (and promote) an author who is a "died-in-the-wool" Predestinationist? I do like what Spurgeon said in a sermon "Warrant of Faith":

Does a man have to be perfect to bless those that hear him preach? His book "All of Grace" was a great blessing to me and really encouraged me after I was saved and very weak in faith. Have you ever taught error? Did you grow in grace and knowledge? Does your error mean all your teaching is bad? Lord knows I have taught error before. Thankfully, God did not throw me away but instead, used me in spite of the error!

Spurgeon has many great sermons that are a wonderful encouragement to the saints. That doesn't mean I agree with all he says. However, he did get some great revelation from the Lord! I remember one piece where he would witness to someone and say "God has elected some to go to heaven, why don't you be one of them?"

Have you read much of his work?

God uses evil? What purpose does God have for evil, and how does that idea not violate Matt12:25-31?

Did he use a spirit of deception with Ahab? Did he put an evil Spirit on Saul? Did he have the guy in 1 Cor. 5 turned over to Satan to discipline him? Did God use the evil chaldeans to discipline his people in Habakkuk? Did he raise up the evil Babylonians to chastise Israel?

It is a hard thing to believe and God tells us it is a hard thing to believe.

Hab 1:5-7

5 " Look among the nations! Observe!
Be astonished! Wonder!
Because I am doing something in your days —
You would not believe if you were told.
6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,
That fierce and impetuous people
Who march throughout the earth
To seize dwelling places which are not theirs.
7 "They are dreaded and feared;
Their justice and authority originate with themselves.
NASU

But he answers a question later about what his purpose is in doing so.

Hab 1:12

12 Are You not from everlasting,
O Lord, my God, my Holy One?
We will not die.
You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge;
And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
NASU

Paul understood this concept and said he would turn people over to Satan to teach them.

IOW, God uses evil.

In all of Scripture I've never seen anything where God wants/ordains/decrees anyone to be sinful or to perish. He truly opens the gates of Heaven for all who will enter Jesus-the-door.

I agree.