Calvinism / pre-destination

[keyzer soze]

The world as created was good; God did not intend for Adam or Eve to eat from the Tree of Life, nor did He intend their eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

Please tell how it is God's GLORY than anyone perishes; especially in the shadow of verses like Ezk18:24:
"Do I take pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, rather than that he should repent and live?"

Gadgeteer, with all do respect you have lost me.... now you are claiming that God was caught off guard by sin and had then to come up with a plan of redemption?

Eph 1:4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. (so does the US refer to every human being and what does Christ mean? no sin, no savior...)

[Gadgeteer]

Couple questions along the doctrine of OSAS. I got through Chapter 8 of Romans last night and wow, verses 26-39 are painting a STRONG case that if a person is truly saved, God will never lose them.

No, it doesn't; it says we can never be separated from His LOVE -- even those who perish, He still loves.

And I know the answer to this in this thread has been true, God will not leave them but humans can still leave God. If indeed you believe that I have a couple of follow-up questions.

1) Why does it say that we are glorified? Is glorification in Christ a temporary condition if one loses his salvation?

1Cor6:11 says we are sanctified and justified and washed/regenerated; Heb10:29 speaks of a man who WAS SANCTIFIED and by Jesus' blood (no way he was anything but "saved"!), but now is not. "Glorified" is the eventuality of those who abide in salvation; so yes if one forsakes salvation he is no longer glorified. Don't forget that Rom8:29-35 really begins in verse 28, "those WHO love God". It's a command, a constant one. See Deut30:11-20! "Choose life by LOVING God, by walking in His statutes and by holding fast to Him!"

2) If God knows all and thus knows that a person will choose to walk away from Him at a later date and become unsaved, then how do you explain this verse? Heb 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. (What is the purpose of this if God already knows that his discipline will FAIL and the person will walk away from the faith?)

Read on --- you HAVE BECOME (past!) subject to His discipline, but if you ARE NOW (present!) without then you ARE NOT (no longer!) sons but illegitimate!

That is nothing less than asserting "ceasing-to-be-born-again"!


Then he says,

"SHALL we not much rather BE SUBJECT (continue) to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

If that's not expressing "continue-to-be-saved", then what did he mean?

In the end I believe we are to preach and spread the gospel with the Armenean mindset urging all to turn and follow Christ but I believe we should have the theology of a Calvinist that allows us to fully trust in the Lord that He is in control and that He can take control and lead our lives.

Please tell us how we can affect anyone's salvation? Jude23 says we can save others, snatching them from the fire; Rom14:15 says we can DESTROY one who WAS saved!

How does that work?

Personal Question: As a new believer one of the things I regularly pray for is the salvation of my family and friends. I pray that God will soften their hearts and they will see their need for a savior. Is that prayer foolish in the eyes of a "free-will" person because God stays out of that because that would be violating human free-will?

Exactly what are you praying?

"God, please CHANGE Your sovereign immutable will that elected from the BEGINNING OF TIME and save them, or save them if You're already going to do so anyway..."

Is that what you're praying?Or are you really praying for them to be saved?

Often, we pray for OURSELVES --- "God, change ME, into whatever you need me to be to reach them for You!"

Scripture already claims that a fair and just God is already calling everyone the same and thus my prayer is contrary to basic scripture teaching. I am asking God to do something that scripture clearly states He doesn't do?

You are praying that they be influenced in salvation; that the darkness will be held back, and that people will speak conviction to your hearts.

I submit that every Calvinist secretly understands this; and their prayers and sermons are promoting salvation to a lost world.

;-)

[keyzer soze]

It is an interesting question... what is the ultimate purpose of God for creation? Why did he create all that he did?

Mark, I believe this passage to be the answer:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Stop and think what we would know about God if there was no fall.... Just look at how little Adam and Eve knew about God that they thought they could become like Him by EATING FRUIT!!!! How much MORE do we know now?

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer, with all due respect you have lost me.... now you are claiming that God was caught off guard by sin and had then to come up with a plan of redemption?

Not "caught off guard", but the fall was not His plan.

Eph 1:4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. (so does the US refer to every human being and what does Christ mean? no sin, no savior...)

And "chosen in Christ" also reflects 1Pet1:20-21, JESUS was foreknown and has appeared for us who through Him are believers in God.

[keyzer soze]

Not "caught off guard", but the fall was not His plan.
And "chosen in Christ" also reflects 1Pet1:20-21, JESUS was foreknown and has appeared for us who through Him are believers in God.

So are you suggesting that when God created man, God didn't already know that Jesus would die on the cross? Jesus was plan B?

[Redeemed by Grace]

No, it doesn't; it says we can never be separated from His LOVE -- even those who perish, He still loves.

You know, I have to call this part out... In KS's other thread -- he is going through 1st and 2nd Samuel, and in part God has declared the annihilation of the Amalekites... Men women, young old, even the animals....

So are you saying that God loves these folks, for whom He wanted destroyed as punishment?

1 Samuel 15:3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

[Brother Mark]

Mark, I believe this passage to be the answer:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Stop and think what we would know about God if there was no fall.... Just look at how little Adam and Eve knew about God that they thought they could become like Him by EATING FRUIT!!!! How much MORE do we know now?

The fruit didn't help. It hindered! What we know about God only begins with redemption. It doesn't end there. There's so MUCH MORE! Wasn't it a lie from Satan that eating the fruit was better for Adam and Eve?

The verse I like to use for the purpose of creation is Rev. 4:11

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

All of creation was created for God's pleasure. Yet, he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

[Brother Mark]

You know, I have to call this part out... In KS's other thread -- he is going through 1st and 2nd Samuel, and in part God has declared the annihilation of the Amalekites... Men women, young old, even the animals....

So are you saying that God loves these folks, for whom He wanted destroyed as punishment?

1 Samuel 15:3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

Yes. God loved them. But when he judged them, they became separated from His love, imo. When you sin against mercy and reject it, what's left other than judgment?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Yes. God loved them. But when he judged them, they became separated from His love, imo. When you sin against mercy and reject it, what's left other than judgment?

So would you say that God stopped loving the Amalekites then? Or are you saying He still loves them?

[Brother Mark]

So would you say that God stopped loving the Amalekites then? Or are you saying He still loves them?

To be honest, RGB, I have not studied it out. But my knee jerk reaction is those in hell have been separated from His love. I guess that means he no longer loves them but I could be wrong about it. Though I don't think it's wrong to say they are separated from it. (As a side note, I don't see love and hate as opposites or mutually exclusive. I know plenty of people that I have love for and feel moments of hate for too! They're called family. lol)

[Redeemed by Grace]

To be honest, RGB, I have not studied it out. But my knee jerk reaction is those in hell have been separated from His love. I guess that means he no longer loves them but I could be wrong about it. Though I don't think it's wrong to say they are separated from it. (As a side note, I don't see love and hate as opposites or mutually exclusive. I know plenty of people that I have love for and feel moments of hate for too! They're called family. lol)

Howdy Mark,

So going back to the original post of our Brother Gadgeteer...

No, it doesn't; it says we can never be separated from His LOVE -- even those who perish, He still loves.

And his claim that God loves those who are perishing, would be more a hope than a biblical position, IMHO. For God's wrath will be displayed again sometime in the future, for as the flood wiped out all men less 8, we see a tremendous amount of scripture talking of The Day of the Lord and God's wrath again evil/sin. So loving while destroying doesn't seem to be a family affair, but more a Good vs Evil resolve.

[Gadgeteer]

So are you suggesting that when God created man, God didn't already know that Jesus would die on the cross? Jesus was plan B?

That's difficult to express; I perceive (not from Scripture) that God exists simultaneously at all points in time. He foresaw every eventuality, but chose not to create a Universe where mankind would be prohibited from falling. But it wasn't His plan for mankind to fall. Jesus-on-the-Cross was in response to the fall, though it was "planned from the beginning". This because "yesterday, today and tomorrow" as I perceive God are all as one instant.

We have more than enough Scripture to prove that God does not predestine sin, nor is He causally involved in any wickedness...

[Gadgeteer]

You know, I have to call this part out... In KS's other thread -- he is going through 1st and 2nd Samuel, and in part God has declared the annihilation of the Amalekites... Men women, young old, even the animals....

So are you saying that God loves these folks, for whom He wanted destroyed as punishment?

1 Samuel 15:3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

I wasn't there to know about the Amalekites; but I now that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness.

I also know that Nineveh was wicked, and God planned to destroy it. But:

"3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it."

Did God plan to destroy the Ninevites for their wickedness? Yes.
Did God love them and desire for them to repent, and therefore send Jonah? Yes.
Did they repent and God witheld the punishment? Yes!

[Gadgeteer]

Howdy Mark,

So going back to the original post of our Brother Gadgeteer...

And his claim that God loves those who are perishing, would be more a hope than a biblical position, IMHO. For God's wrath will be displayed again sometime in the future, for as the flood wiped out all men less 8, we see a tremendous amount of scripture talking of The Day of the Lord and God's wrath again evil/sin. So loving while destroying doesn't seem to be a family affair, but more a Good vs Evil resolve.

The topic being "predestination", God is perceived as either not loving most whom He did not predestine to eternal life, or somehow loving them but still ordaining them to perish. And clearly God does not desire anyone to perish, and loves the world.

RE "God's wrath" --- Romans2 speaks of "storing up wrath for themselves", and also Eph2 says "WE were once children of wrath the same as the rest"! God's wrath comes upon unbelievers, because of unbelief (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10). If men do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again to Jesus the vine (Rom11:23); He loves them as the Prodigal's father loved him and desired for him to return...

[glad4mercy]

The topic being "predestination", God is perceived as either not loving most whom He did not predestine to eternal life, or somehow loving them but still ordaining them to perish. And clearly God does not desire anyone to perish, and loves the world.

RE "God's wrath" --- Romans2 speaks of "storing up wrath for themselves", and also Eph2 says "WE were once children of wrath the same as the rest"! God's wrath comes upon unbelievers, because of unbelief (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10). If men do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again to Jesus the vine (Rom11:23); He loves them as the Prodigal's father loved him and desired for him to return...

God loves us all so much that He wants us to become His children, be conformed to the image of Christ, and receive an inheritance. He also loved us so much that He made it possible to accept or reject this offer. We could never have accepted this glorious offer apart from God's preceeding grace, yet this grace is not irresistable.

Hey Gadgeteer, we havent crossed paths in quite a while. Good to meet up with you again.