Calvinism / pre-destination

[Redeemed by Grace]

I wasn't there to know about the Amalekites; but I now that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness.

I also know that Nineveh was wicked, and God planned to destroy it. But:

"3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it."

Did God plan to destroy the Ninevites for their wickedness? Yes.
Did God love them and desire for them to repent, and therefore send Jonah? Yes.
Did they repent and God witheld the punishment? Yes!

God saved one group of Ninevites... destroyed all the future rest of them past that generation of Jonah's era... And thus Jonah's lesson... Salvation is of the Lord.


But back to the Amalekites.... Did God have love before and/or after He told Samuel to annihilate them?

[Redeemed by Grace]

The topic being "predestination", God is perceived as either not loving most whom He did not predestine to eternal life, or somehow loving them but still ordaining them to perish. And clearly God does not desire anyone to perish, and loves the world.

God does not desire that anyone would perish... AMEN! The question though if they do perish, does God love them? For in His love does He not give.... give His only Son to them?

RE "God's wrath" --- Romans2 speaks of "storing up wrath for themselves", and also Eph2 says "WE were once children of wrath the same as the rest"! God's wrath comes upon unbelievers, because of unbelief (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10). If men do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again to Jesus the vine (Rom11:23); He loves them as the Prodigal's father loved him and desired for him to return...

The question you did pose was does God love those who perish... For if you loved some one, wouldn't you give of yourself as love?

[ChristianCoffee]

Here is my take (for what it is worth):

God is love. He loves everyone. Just because they do not love Him back, and choose to be seperated from Him, does not make Him love them any less. I think until the final judgement (and maybe even after it) He does/will love them. The issue is, since they do not love Him back, they are seperated from Him.

I see it like this: they do not want to be with Him, no matter how badly He wants them with Him. So, with as much love as He can muster (which is more then I could give), He gives them what they want. The sad part is that it is eternal seperation from Him.

And as to people who are going through hard times and such, yes they may turn from God for a period of time (like the Prodigal Son). But it sometimes takes a special set of circumstances to bring them back to Him. I am of the OSAS camp: I do not believe you can lose the Gift He has so freely given, if you have accepted it. And who are we to judge if they have?


In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

[Redeemed by Grace]

Here is my take (for what it is worth):

God is love. He loves everyone.

Hi CC... Hope all is well... This thought has me stumped, for I'm trying to put my arms around this with scripture and am coming up short.... The best I can come up with is John 3:16, but still struggle with the inclusionary terms of world and all with the conditional statement of the expression of that love through the belief in His Son.

You and Gadget and Mark, amongst others all seem to say that God loves everyone, and I know that this is His command to us, that we love.... but I'm trying to discern where God's love is expressed to all equally or unconditionally, or universally, and I find many examples within His word where as His wrath is and will be expressed on the lawless and evilness in Heaven and in earth, it does not seem something that is holdable. God is love and long-suffering, as well as holy and righteous... no doubt, but He also hates sin and is vengeful and angry and wrathful in balance to His love long-suffering, etc... if not equally balanced, maybe ledger-balanced?

But I'm just wondering out loud if God loves those who never repent, or the fallen angels that are currently locked up, or even Satan himself. And if so, would it be equal love to those for whom He has saved from the same damnation? Or would not there need to be an opposite condition to contrast with to demonstrate to those He loves the higher value to that love?

Say you have experienced great pain the first time within your life... and then also great happiness and joy... Comparative to each other, which humans do, would not the joy be so much more measurable to the feelings of pain once experienced? So would not God's righteous judgment towards those who sin, who do not experience God's love, bring a fuller love to those who do love Him? Again, I can't find where it states that God loves those who are evil. But I do see where He calls to man to repent and believe.... and those who do -- then experience His love.

Anyone know of where within the bible that it declare that those who are destined for hell, God will still love them and their evil unrepentant ways?

[Brother Mark]

Howdy Mark,

So going back to the original post of our Brother Gadgeteer...

And his claim that God loves those who are perishing, would be more a hope than a biblical position, IMHO. For God's wrath will be displayed again sometime in the future, for as the flood wiped out all men less 8, we see a tremendous amount of scripture talking of The Day of the Lord and God's wrath again evil/sin. So loving while destroying doesn't seem to be a family affair, but more a Good vs Evil resolve.

Well, I go back to what i said earlier too. If one sins against mercy and love, and rejects, what is left other than judgment?

Did he love them when he offered? Sure. Did he love them after deciding to judge them? The best scriptural answer I can give (for now) is they were separated from His love at that time. It was no longer available to them. It had been removed from them.

I think scripture is clear that God loves his human enemies and I can't find any direct scripture where that love is a different kind of love. He offered His Son for all of them. That's what Love does. But when that is rejected, there's nothing left but of a certain judgment.

[CFJ]

God is love. He loves everyone.

Hi CC,

I would love to add my view to RbG's post above. That statement needs perspective, because God is love and at the same time He is holy and will judge all people and hates sin and also the worker of that sin. Many holds to the idea that God loves the sinner but hates the sin only. That could never be true as a general statement and needs to be defined, because it is not sin only that is cast into the eternal fire, but the sinners of that sin will go along with their sin. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (Psa 5:5). Also look at these verses..., Lev 20:23; Psa 10:3; Pro 6:16-19; Hos 9:15; Zec 11:8; Mat 7:23, Mat 25:41

For me it is more accurate to say that God is righteous, because this describe Him as being fair and just and holy and a God of love too...

[Brother Mark]

But I'm just wondering out loud if God loves those who never repent, or the fallen angels that are currently locked up, or even Satan himself. And if so, would it be equal love to those for whom He has saved from the same damnation? Or would not there need to be an opposite condition to contrast with to demonstrate to those He loves the higher value to that love?

I think there is a difference in fallen angels and fallen men. Angels saw God face to face. Their rejection is different and permanent. Fallen men, have not yet moved into the permanent portion (at least until they fulfill then end of Romans 1 and become turned over or they die.) Jesus told us to agape our enemies. Does he do the same? Yes.

When a nation becomes reprobate, and they have rejected mercy, what's left but judgment?

Say you have experienced great pain the first time within your life... and then also great happiness and joy... Comparative to each other, which humans do, would not the joy be so much more measurable to the feelings of pain once experienced? So would not God's righteous judgment towards those who sin, who do not experience God's love, bring a fuller love to those who do love Him?

No.

Again, I can't find where it states that God loves those who are evil. But I do see where He calls to man to repent and believe.... and those who do -- then experience His love.

Romans says that while we were yet sinners, God loved us. When I was evil, God loved me.

Anyone know of where within the bible that it declare that those who are destined for hell, God will still love them and their evil unrepentant ways?

And therein is the rub isn't it? Does a "mother hen" love her chicks? Is it love when Jesus said he longed to gather Jerusalem under his wings as a hen does her chicks?

I may have some more later, but I have a plane to catch!

Blessings to you RGB,

Mark

[Brother Mark]

Hi CC,

I would love to add my view to RbG's post above. That statement needs perspective, because God is love and at the same time He is holy and will judge all people and hates sin and also the worker of that sin. Many holds to the idea that God loves the sinner but hates the sin only. That could never be true as a general statement and needs to be defined, because it is not sin only that is cast into the eternal fire, but the sinners of that sin will go along with their sin. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (Psa 5:5). Also look at these verses..., Lev 20:23; Psa 10:3; Pro 6:16-19; Hos 9:15; Zec 11:8; Mat 7:23, Mat 25:41

For me it is more accurate to say that God is righteous, because this describe Him as being fair and just and holy and a God of love too...

Hate is not the opposite of love. One can love and hate at the same time. Just because one feels the emotion of hate towards someone does not mean they do not love them. Kids get this when they say "I hate you" and tomorrow they have forgotten all. The opposite of love is selfishness/self centeredness.

[CFJ]

Hate is not the opposite of love. One can love and hate at the same time. Just because one feels the emotion of hate towards someone does not mean they do not love them. Kids get this when they say "I hate you" and tomorrow they have forgotten all. The opposite of love is selfishness/self centeredness.

I can agree with this Brother Mark, but it really depends on context. God loves the truth and hates lies, is opposites of each other and context always determine what is meant.

[glad4mercy]

I think that John 3:16 sufficiently proves that God loves everyone, because it does not say "for God so loved the elect", or "for God so loved the church", ( though these statements are true as well and stated in other passages), it says "for God so loved the world." The Greek word kosmos means the inhabitants of the earth, ( and contextually means everyone who ever lived or will live). So God's love and offer of salvation is to all, He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever, ( whosoever means anyone, even me!) believes should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16- God gave His Son to die for the world, ( kosmos)
1 Timothy 1:15 says Christ came into the world to save sinners.
Matthew 11:28- Jesus invites all to come to Him.
Revelation 22:17- The Holy Spirit and the Church invite all to come.
Mark 16:15- Jesus commanded that the Gospel should be preached to every person.
John 12:32- Jesus said that He would draw all men unto Himself.
Matthew 22:4- God has made all things ready. ( undertaken every task that pertains to salvation), and invites people to come, but many reject the invitation. ( Matthew 22:5-6)
Hebrews 2:2-3- Those who neglect so great a salvation receive the just punishment for their transgression.

So God is Love and God is Just. He loves us, but if we insist on rejecting His offer of free pardon and salvation, Justice demands that we must be punished. God will not deny His own attribute of Justice. It is not that God desires to punish those who reject, it is that in the face of the fact that God has done everything necessary to save a person, that person chooses to yet refuse to be saved. If God forced people to go to Heaven against their will, they would not be happy there, because in heaven God gets all the glory, and that type of existence would be distasteful for an unregenerate sinner. God could regenerate them against their will if He chose, but in His infinite wisdom, He did not choose that way.

[Gadgeteer]

God does not desire that anyone would perish... AMEN! The question though if they do perish, does God love them? For in His love does He not give.... give His only Son to them?

To whom did God give His Son? To the world. To whom is Jesus the "propitiation"? To not only us, but also the whole world (holos kosmos).

God either desires every Human to be saved, or He does not; He either ordains no one to be saved rather dragging each to the door and allowing them to choose, or He "zaps" a few whom He loves and He does not love the rest.

When Jesus was dying --- He spoke of forgiveness for the very people who were doing the deed. Did He know what He was saying? Of course there can never BE forgiveness without repentance; but was He expressing love, for everyone?

The question you did pose was does God love those who perish... For if you loved some one, wouldn't you give of yourself as love?

It is the nature of love to GIVE, but we cannot make anyone RECEIVE...

[keyzer soze]

God could regenerate them against their will if He chose, but in His infinite wisdom, He did not choose that way.

Thanks for posting glad4mercy, always good to get some new perspective in a thread. The last sentence of your post I believe is the issue at hand right? Because the "reformed" view thinks that ALL reject God by their sinful will and it is God that regenerates that sinful will to accept him. The other side is that it is a group or class of humans who choose to be regenerated because their sinful will does not prevent this. Perhaps we need to narrow this thread down to this very issue. Do humans have the ability to choose to be regenerated or do they need God to choose them first?

[Gadgeteer]

Here is my take (for what it is worth):

God is love. He loves everyone. Just because they do not love Him back, and choose to be seperated from Him, does not make Him love them any less. I think until the final judgement (and maybe even after it) He does/will love them. The issue is, since they do not love Him back, they are separated from Him.

I see it like this: they do not want to be with Him, no matter how badly He wants them with Him. So, with as much love as He can muster (which is more then I could give), He gives them what they want. The sad part is that it is eternal seperation from Him.

Amen. God's love is tempered with His justice --- though He loves each person and earnestly desires them to fellowship with Him forever, His justice requires those who choose sin and darkness, to receive what they have chosen.

And as to people who are going through hard times and such, yes they may turn from God for a period of time (like the Prodigal Son).

Question --- in Luke15:13 (and only verse 13), when the Prodigal was drunk, carousing, lying with harlots, did he reflect a "saved" person? Are we ever given an exemption from passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, or Gal5:19-21?

But it sometimes takes a special set of circumstances to bring them back to Him. I am of the OSAS camp: I do not believe you can lose the Gift He has so freely given, if you have accepted it.

Could the person in James5:19-21 have wandered from where he never was, or be led back to where he never had been? James' argument is "IF" he is led back.

In the story of the Prodigal, verse 7 says there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. Why does Heaven rejoice? Would Heaven rejoice if the return was "given"? I perceive they rejoice because it is NOT guaranteed any will return.

And who are we to judge if they have?

We are told "we shall know them by their fruits". And, "no longer judge on appearance only, but judge with righteous judgment". And "a righteous man judges all things but is he himself judged by no man".

The act of deciding who is saved and who is not is "judgment". Though only one person in the Universe has the right to judge, Human judging (properly applied) is the power of righteousness. We cannot call evil "evil", without the power of judging. Yet, we are only vessels reflecting His judgment; and our purpose is not to condemn, but to convict towards faith. Never to destoy, always to build.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi CC... Hope all is well... This thought has me stumped, for I'm trying to put my arms around this with scripture and am coming up short.... The best I can come up with is John 3:16, but still struggle with the inclusionary terms of world and all with the conditional statement of the expression of that love through the belief in His Son.

I'm not "CC", but... :-P

The nature of love is it does not demand its own way, by definition. 1Cor13:5. Part-n-parcel of "predestination theology" is not to deny that all men are commanded to love God and to repent, but "command does not imply ability". Yes, it does. In Acts17:26-31 God commands all men everywhere to repent. Conspicuously stating that God determines men's times and places so that they MAY seek Him and perhaps find Him, though He is not far from ANY of us. Think about that --- if it was not possible to believe (if "command did not imply ability"), then it would be too far!

You and Gadget and Mark, amongst others all seem to say that God loves everyone, and I know that this is His command to us, that we love.... but I'm trying to discern where God's love is expressed to all equally or unconditionally, or universally, and I find many examples within His word where as His wrath is and will be expressed on the lawless and evilness in Heaven and in earth, it does not seem something that is holdable. God is love and long-suffering, as well as holy and righteous... no doubt, but He also hates sin and is vengeful and angry and wrathful in balance to His love long-suffering, etc... if not equally balanced, maybe ledger-balanced?

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. The wages of sin are death. Yet in 2Pet2:1 He bought even those horrible wicked sin-devoted degenerates. He bought them. In no way could that ever mean "they were sovereignly excluded" --- they were included, but like some in Matt22 they declined.

But I'm just wondering out loud if God loves those who never repent, or the fallen angels that are currently locked up, or even Satan himself. And if so, would it be equal love to those for whom He has saved from the same damnation? Or would not there need to be an opposite condition to contrast with to demonstrate to those He loves the higher value to that love?

I can't speak for bad-angels; but Scripture says that "God showed His love for us, that while we were YET sinners Christ died for us, the Just for the unjust." That does not say "God loved a FEW of us and zapped-us-righteous".

Say you have experienced great pain the first time within your life... and then also great happiness and joy... Comparative to each other, which humans do, would not the joy be so much more measurable to the feelings of pain once experienced? So would not God's righteous judgment towards those who sin, who do not experience God's love, bring a fuller love to those who do love Him? Again, I can't find where it states that God loves those who are evil. But I do see where He calls to man to repent and believe.... and those who do -- then experience His love.

What about from the Cross? "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Was that "love"?

Yes.

Anyone know of where within the bible that it declare that those who are destined for hell, God will still love them and their evil unrepentant ways?

He does NOT "love their evil unrepentant ways". But He loved THEM enough to send the Son that "whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life".

The parable of Matt22:2-14 conveys the whole issue elegantly. Everyone was invited ("as many as you find"!), but some chose not to come. It can be said "they chose not to be chosen".

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

[Gadgeteer]

God loves us all so much that He wants us to become His children, be conformed to the image of Christ, and receive an inheritance. He also loved us so much that He made it possible to accept or reject this offer. We could never have accepted this glorious offer apart from God's preceeding grace, yet this grace is not irresistable.

Amen!

Hey Gadgeteer, we haven't crossed paths in quite a while. Good to meet up with you again.

Where'veya' been? Missed you!

Hope all is well and blessed in your world!