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Thread: Calvinism / pre-destination

  1. #331

    Re: How many people (whom God created), does He love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    God saved one group of Ninevites... destroyed all the future rest of them past that generation of Jonah's era... And thus Jonah's lesson... Salvation is of the Lord.


    But back to the Amalekites.... Did God have love before and/or after He told Samuel to annihilate them?
    Have to believe that He loved them, and would have spared them had they repented...

  2. #332
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    Thanks for posting glad4mercy, always good to get some new perspective in a thread. The last sentence of your post I believe is the issue at hand right? Because the "reformed" view thinks that ALL reject God by their sinful will and it is God that regenerates that sinful will to accept him. The other side is that it is a group or class of humans who choose to be regenerated because their sinful will does not prevent this. Perhaps we need to narrow this thread down to this very issue. Do humans have the ability to choose to be regenerated or do they need God to choose them first?
    I agree with some of the reformed view, but I am neither Calvinist nor am I fully Arminian. ( spelling?)

    I believe that the natural man is fallen in sin, and in His natural state He cannot and will not seek God without God's Grace preceeding his/her desire to seek God. I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that draws us, and without this drawing we are unable to come to God rightly, because our wills are bound by sin and desire, and our minds are darkened. So yes, God certainly does the first works in regeneration.

    On the other hand, I do not believe that regeneration precedes repentance and faith. We do not get saved and then believe, we believe and repent as conditions of salvation. Yet we must always remember that it is God who works in us both to will and to do His Good pleasure. So in response to the TULIP of the Calvinists, this is the position that I hold.

    1. Radical depravity- Man cannot come to God unless he is drawn by God.

    2. Conditional election- God draws us in order that we may repent and believe. Unless we repent and believe, we will perish. God foreknew and predestinated all who are in Christ to become children of God, and to be conformed to the image of His Son

    3. Unlimited atonement- Christ death is sufficient to save all, He died for all, but His death only saves those who repent and believe. Thus it is not unlimited in the sense that everyone will be saved, it is unlimited in the sense that it Christ's atonement is able to save everyone, though only those who meet the conditions of repentance.

    4. Resistable Grace- God's Grace and saving Hand is extended to all, but can be resisted, if we foolishly choose to do so.

    5. Security of the Believer- The Believer is safe and secure as long as he/she is abiding in faith and in Christ.


    Does this sufficiently answer your question as to my view on these things?
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  3. #333

    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I agree with some of the reformed view, but I am neither Calvinist nor am I fully Arminian. ( spelling?)

    I believe that the natural man is fallen in sin, and in His natural state He cannot and will not seek God without God's Grace preceeding his/her desire to seek God. I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that draws us, and without this drawing we are unable to come to God rightly, because our wills are bound by sin and desire, and our minds are darkened.

    On the other hand, I do not believe that regeneration precedes repentance and faith. We do not get saved and then believe, we believe and repent as conditions of salvation. Yet we must always remember that it is God who works in us both to will and to do His Good pleasure. So in response to the TULIP of the Calvinists, this is the position that I hold.

    1. Radical depravity- Man cannot come to God unless he is drawn by God.

    2. Conditional election- God draws us in order that we may repent and believe. Unless we repent and believe, we will perish. God foreknew and predestinated all who are in Christ to become children of God, and to be conformed to the image of His Son

    3. Unlimited atonement- Christ death is sufficient to save all, He died for all, but His death only saves those who repent and believe. Thus it is not unlimited in the sense that everyone will be saved, it is unlimited in the sense that it Christ's atonement is able to save everyone, though only those who meet the conditions of repentance.

    4. Resistable Grace- God's Grace and saving Hand is extended to all, but can be resisted, if we foolishly choose to do so.

    5. Security of the Believer- The Believer is safe and secure as long as he/she is abiding in faith and in Christ.


    Does this sufficiently answer your question as to my view on these things?
    The answer to "total inability", is not "Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism"; it is as you said, God's call to everyone.

    Deuteronomy30:11-20, with Romans10:6-10, and connecting to Acts17:26-31 settles it completely. It is NOT FAR nor is it TOO DIFFICULT, but the word of faith (the same one that Paul was preaching about Jesus!) is near, it is IN everyone's heart and mouth --- each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away disobey and perish. God commands all men everywhere to repent, and arranges men's times and places such that they MIGHT seek God and perhaps find Him; He is not far from any of us!

  4. #334

    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I agree with some of the reformed view, but I am neither Calvinist nor am I fully Arminian. ( spelling?) I believe that man is fallen in sin, and in His natural state He cannot and will not seek God without God's Grace preceeding his/her desire to seek God. I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that draws us, without this drawing we are unable to come to God rightly, because our wills are bound by sin and desire, and our minds are darkened.

    On the other hand, I do not believe that regeneration precedes repentance and faith. We do not get saved and then believe, we believe and repent as conditions of salvation. Yet we must always remember that it is God who works in us both to will and to do His Good pleasure. So in response to the TULIP of the Calvinists, this is the position that I hold.

    1. Radical depravity- Man cannot come to God unless he is drawn by God.

    2. Conditional election- God draws us in order that we may repent and believe. Unless we repent and believe, we will perish. God foreknew and predestinated all who are in Christ to become children of God, and to be conformed to the image of His Son

    3. Unlimited atonement- Christ death is sufficient to save all, He died for all, but His death only saves those who repent and believe. Thus it is not unlimited in the sense that everyone will be saved, it is unlimited in the sense that it Christ's atonement is able to save everyone, though only those who meet the conditions of repentance.

    4. Resistable Grace- God's Grace and saving Hand is extended to all, but can be resisted, if we foolishly choose to do so.

    5. Security of the Believer- The Believer is safe and secure as long as he/she is abiding in faith and in Christ.


    Does this sufficiently answer your question as to my view on these things?
    Hey, really appreciate how you are straight forward and make it EASY for me to participate with limited time. I have a follow up question to the above.

    How do you reconcile #2 and #4? If you can't and it is a mystery I am cool with that. But if it is clear in your mind I would GREATLY appreciate hearing it. How can one say that God elects but on the next breath say that His grace (which is the means of election) is resistible. Are you suggesting that God elects humans that are NOT saved because they refuse.

    Example (I work best with numerical examples)

    There are 1,000 humans (to use small numbers)
    500 of them are elected by God to get a shot at redemption
    250 accept and repent but 250 reject and are eternally lost
    500 never were elected to begin with so they are lost

    Summary: 250 will receive eternal life and 750 will receive damnation of which 500 never had a shot.

    Does this represent your TULIP above correctly? Thanks.
    When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

  5. #335
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Hi CC... Hope all is well... This thought has me stumped, for I'm trying to put my arms around this with scripture and am coming up short.... The best I can come up with is John 3:16, but still struggle with the inclusionary terms of world and all with the conditional statement of the expression of that love through the belief in His Son.

    You and Gadget and Mark, amongst others all seem to say that God loves everyone, and I know that this is His command to us, that we love.... but I'm trying to discern where God's love is expressed to all equally or unconditionally, or universally, and I find many examples within His word where as His wrath is and will be expressed on the lawless and evilness in Heaven and in earth, it does not seem something that is holdable. God is love and long-suffering, as well as holy and righteous... no doubt, but He also hates sin and is vengeful and angry and wrathful in balance to His love long-suffering, etc... if not equally balanced, maybe ledger-balanced?

    But I'm just wondering out loud if God loves those who never repent, or the fallen angels that are currently locked up, or even Satan himself. And if so, would it be equal love to those for whom He has saved from the same damnation? Or would not there need to be an opposite condition to contrast with to demonstrate to those He loves the higher value to that love?

    Say you have experienced great pain the first time within your life... and then also great happiness and joy... Comparative to each other, which humans do, would not the joy be so much more measurable to the feelings of pain once experienced? So would not God's righteous judgment towards those who sin, who do not experience God's love, bring a fuller love to those who do love Him? Again, I can't find where it states that God loves those who are evil. But I do see where He calls to man to repent and believe.... and those who do -- then experience His love.

    Anyone know of where within the bible that it declare that those who are destined for hell, God will still love them and their evil unrepentant ways?
    You and CFJ are asking me a question I do not have time to answer properly right now (as I am only on a short break at work). But I do promise to give 3 Bible verses that support what I am saying. And the answer I will give may seem long and rambling (kinda like myself ) but I promise you it will at least make you think, and possibly understand where it is I am comming from.

    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:16
    Last edited by ChristianCoffee; Mar 1st 2012 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Spelling, per usual.
    "You're gonna make a difference when you lay down your life, and in complete submission to God, choose to die with Him in service to other people."
    "Sometimes it concerns me, you know, the number of people that can quote my songs, and-- or they can quote the songs of several different people, but they can't quote the Scriptures."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZLFGZ6zpeI
    Rich Mullins

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

  6. #336
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    The answer to "total inability", is not "Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism"; it is as you said, God's call to everyone.
    Amen, I completely agree with you.

    Deuteronomy30:11-20, with Romans10:6-10, and connecting to Acts17:26-31 settles it completely. It is NOT FAR nor is it TOO DIFFICULT, but the word of faith (the same one that Paul was preaching about Jesus!) is near, it is IN everyone's heart and mouth --- each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away disobey and perish. God commands all men everywhere to repent, and arranges men's times and places such that they MIGHT seek God and perhaps find Him; He is not far from any of us!
    Yes, and it is the Spirit's call that makes us desure to seek God. The Holy Spirit and the Gospel made us thirsty, so we heard the call to come drink at the wells of salvation and when came running. The Preaching of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit made us hunger for God, so we came to the Bread of Life. The reason why so many do not get saved is because they are so filled up with the the sinful things of the world that they do not hunger for God. They need to be made hungry. They do not thirst for God, so we need to become salt before them, so that they can become thirsty.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  7. #337
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    Re: How many people (whom God created), does He love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Have to believe that He loved them, and would have spared them had they repented...

    But wouldn't that be based on opinion than what we see within Scripture?

    For what I can see, and open to correction is that He loves the elect, for that's what we see within Scriptures...

    Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
    34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
    35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 Just as it is written,
    "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
    WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
    37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
    38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
    39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    For which is unstoppable, unchangeable, undeniable.

    BUT....

    Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
    No evil dwells with You.
    5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
    You hate all who do iniquity.
    6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
    The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
    7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
    At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  8. #338
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    Hey, really appreciate how you are straight forward and make it EASY for me to participate with limited time
    Thank you for the kind words.
    How do you reconcile #2 and #4?
    1. God foreknows all things, but His foreknowledge is not always causative. God knew who would reject the Gospel, but I do not believe He caused them to reject the Gospel, because I do not believe that God is the author of sin, and rejecting the Gospel is sin.

    2. On the other hand, God foreknew who would believe and He predestined, ( pre-determined) their adoption, their being confomed to the image of Jesus, and their inheritance. Therefore, God is the cause and source of all good, but He is not the cause or source of evil. Evil is the rejection of God.

    3. Now Calvinists will say that God did not cause the lost to reject the Gospel. They say He merely did not extend the hand of love to them and offer of salvation to them, yet from what I understand and believe based on studying the Bible and my experiences with God, this statement ( of Calvinists), is contrary to numerous passages in the Bible as well as the attribute of God as Love.
    Are you suggesting that God elects humans that are NOT saved because they refuse.
    No, I do not believe in any way, shape, or form in double-predestination. This is why I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe that God wants any human to go to hell, that's why He sent His Son to die for them. God predestinates believers to salvation, but I do not believe that He predestinates people to go to hell. They go to hell either because they chose sin, they believed a lie instead of the truth, etc.
    There are 1,000 humans (to use small numbers) 500 of them are elected by God to get a shot at redemption 250 accept and repent but 250 reject and are eternally lost 500 never were elected to begin with so they are lost
    God desires for all to be saved. "God desires all to get a shot at redemption." That is why He calls His church to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. He also says to pray for power to witness, so that the Word will be accompanied by the Power of the Spirit. The preaching of the Gospel is the outward call, the Holy Spirit is the inward call. When the call is heard the person can either answer the call or reject the call, but if they resist the call and perish, it is not due to God's Will. God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
    Last edited by glad4mercy; Mar 2nd 2012 at 01:26 AM.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  9. #339

    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Thank you for the kind words.

    1. God foreknows all things, but His foreknowledge is not always causative. God knew who would reject the Gospel, but I do not believe He caused it them to reject the Gospel, because I do not believe that God is the author of sin, and rejecting the Gospel is sin.

    2. On the other hand, God foreknew who would believe and He predestined, ( pre-determined) their adoption, their being confomed to the image of Jesus, and their inheritance. Therefore, God is the cause and source of all good, but He is not the cause or source of evil. Evil is the rejection of God.

    3. Now Calvinists will say that God did not cause the lost to reject the Gospel. They say He merely did not extend the hand of love to them and offer of salvation to them, yet from what I understand and believe based on studying the Bible and my experiences with God, this statement ( of Calvinists), is contrary to numerous passages in the Bible as well as the attribute of God as Love.No, I do not believe in any way, shape, or form in double-predestination. This is why I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe that God wants any human to go to hell, that's why He sent His Son to die for them. God predestinates believers to salvation, but I do not believe that He predestinates people to go to hell. They go to hell either because they chose sin, they believed a lie instead of the truth, etc.God desires for all to be saved. "God desires all to get a shot at redemption." That is why He calls His church to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. He also says to pray for power to witness, so that the Word will be accompanied by the Power of the Spirit. The preaching of the Gospel is the outward call, the Holy Spirit is the inward call. When the call is heard the person can either answer the call or reject the call, but if they resist the call and perish, it is not due to God's Will. God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
    Thanks for the reply, please don't get aggravated with me yet, I am slow and need further clarification.

    Does God do anything MORE for the elect then he does for the non-elect or does everyone receive exactly the same calling from God and thus it is the human being who ultimately decides?
    When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

  10. #340
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    Thanks for the reply, please don't get aggravated with me yet, I am slow and need further clarification.
    Nothing to get agravated about. These are excellent questions. Your questions do not indicate slowness to understand, but rather a keen mind. People who ask questions are the wisest. The people who think they have all the answers have not asked the right questions yet.


    Does God do anything MORE for the elect then he does for the non-elect or does everyone receive exactly the same calling from God and thus it is the human being who ultimately decides?
    That is a different issue. I cannot say that we are all blessed equally. Yet each one of us is given a measure of knowledge and grace, and if we respond to the light received, more light will be given. On the last day, no one will have an excuse before God, because everyone is given some measure of truth. The problem is man suppresses the truth. So no one will have an excuse. Romans 1 explains this well. On the other hand, we need to be doing our part to proclaim the Gospel to every creature, our neighbors, our friends, etc, and if we unable to go to other countries we can support missionaries who do. Some others have not because we pray not, we go not, we obey not. ( I am speaking in general terms.)
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  11. #341
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    OK, I promised an answer when I got home as to why I feel God is love and loves everyone. And here it is.

    First, I am not going to get into the fact that He is righteous, sinless, has perfect judgement, etc. As I feel those will lead away from what I am trying to say here. Here is my first verse, in the book of Genesis, chapter 1 verse 26:

    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    We know that God does not change: He is the same today as He was yesterday, and will be the same tomorrow. He created us as the crowning achievement of His creation: to rule over everything. We are in His likeness, but we are not Him. But because we are in His likeness, that means we share some of the same traits as Him. The trait I am referring to is love. Let me explain with a quasi-story:

    We all have family. In most ways, we love our family: our brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles. Our parents. We love them because God has given us that ability; but He also gave us the ability to choose whom to love, and whom to love more or less. Even given us the ability to hate. In this, the free-will. He has given us, it allows us to make choices. So He created us, wanting us to always be in fellowship with Him, so He could show us His love. He walked with Adam in the cool of the day: imagine, He came here, the creator of everything, and walked with Adam. Chatted with Adam. About what I can only imagine, but He came. Because He loved His creation. When Adam and Eve sinned, did that mean that God loved them less? No: He even made clothing for them to hide their nakedness because they were ashamed. Yes, He punished them and sent them from the Garden, but He still loved them. Just as any father would.


    My second verse is the one verse that has turned more hearts toward God then any other (I believe, I have no evidence to back it up). It is John 3:16

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    He gave His Son. Why?? Because He so loved the world! This fallen, sinful, prideful, hateful creation of children He made, He still loved them enough to provide a way back to Him. And He gave this choice of a gift to EVERYONE. Not just the Apostles, not just the Jewish people, but to everyone. Despite what Adam had done, despite what we did and continue to do, He gave His only Son to be our ransom: our way back to Him. And He still gives us the choice to love Him: but He has shown His love for EVERYONE by giving a gift: a gift that (at least I feel) He did not have to give.


    The third verse is found in Mark, chapter 10, verses 17-22:

    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?

    “Why do you call me good?”Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

    You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'”

    “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

    Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.


    Jesus looked at him and loved him. He looked at this rich, young ruler: a young man He knew was not going to drop everything to follow Him. A man, a young guy, a guy who I am not sure ever came to Christ. Judging by this story, he did not. BUT CHRIST STILL LOVED HIM. He still offered a way to be with Him, even when He knew He would be rejected by him. The rich young ruler went away sad, because he had great earthly wealth.

    These 3 verses, to myself, show that God is love, and that God loves everyone. Not just the save, but the lost as well. Not just the Christian, but the Muslim, the Hindu, and the Wicca. He hates our sin: He hates anything that is impure. Just like any parent of a wayward child will tell you, just because the child is not doing what they should be doing does not mean we do not love them. And, like any parent, God is the same way. He is our Father: we (everyone) is His creation. He loves His creation: He loves His children. But He allows us to CHOOSE if we want to love Him back. Free will comes into play here: He loves us, but do we love Him back? He died for us: will we die for Him?

    I am not saying I have all the answers to all the questions: I still get confused about Him. But I know this: He waited a long time for me to come to Him. I hated Him, and yet He still loved me enough to send His Son to die for me. To die for you. To die for everyone. Because He is love; and, no matter what, He loves everyone. Even those whom He knows will be going to hell.

    This is why I believe what I do: and I hope I have answered your questions to me.


    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:15-17

    *All Bible quotes from the NIV*
    "You're gonna make a difference when you lay down your life, and in complete submission to God, choose to die with Him in service to other people."
    "Sometimes it concerns me, you know, the number of people that can quote my songs, and-- or they can quote the songs of several different people, but they can't quote the Scriptures."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZLFGZ6zpeI
    Rich Mullins

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

  12. #342

    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Yes, and it is the Spirit's call that makes us desure to seek God. The Holy Spirit and the Gospel made us thirsty, so we heard the call to come drink at the wells of salvation and when came running. The Preaching of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit made us hunger for God, so we came to the Bread of Life. The reason why so many do not get saved is because they are so filled up with the the sinful things of the world that they do not hunger for God. They need to be made hungry. They do not thirst for God, so we need to become salt before them, so that they can become thirsty.
    That's a great analogy -- that we be "salt" to make them thirsty!

    :-)

  13. #343

    Re: How many people (whom God created), does He love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    But wouldn't that be based on opinion than what we see within Scripture?

    For what I can see, and open to correction is that He loves the elect, for that's what we see within Scriptures...
    "Redeemed", you're not even aware of a predisposition in what you say --- "He loves the elect". The word "ELECT" is interchangeable with "saved"! And yes He loves the elect, but He loves the world enough to send the Son that whosoever believes should not perish.

    When you read that word, you perceive the concept of "sovereignly ordained/chosen to salvation".
    Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
    34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
    35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 Just as it is written,
    "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
    WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
    37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
    38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
    39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    For which is unstoppable, unchangeable, undeniable.

    BUT....

    Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
    No evil dwells with You.
    5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
    You hate all who do iniquity.
    6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
    The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
    7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
    At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.
    What we still have to prove (towards the point of "predestined-salvation", the theme of this thread), is that God sovereignly ELECTS/ORDAINS/CHOOSES people for salvation, and the "ELECT" (implying SOVEREIGNLY elected, "chosen-by-God") cannot be thwarted out of God's sovereign will".

    What are the verses to promote that, Redeemed? We've discussed the "four primaries", though not in as much detail as we might. We've discussed many of the "secondaries". I think we've discussed many verses that simply cannot fit any theme of "unforfeitable salvation". What would it take to convince you, or do you have evidence to convince me?

  14. #344

    Re: On "Free Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianCoffee View Post
    OK, I promised an answer when I got home as to why I feel God is love and loves everyone.

    ...The third verse is found in Mark, chapter 10, verses 17-22:

    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?

    “Why do you call me good?”Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

    You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'”

    “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

    Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.


    Jesus looked at him and loved him. He looked at this rich, young ruler: a young man He knew was not going to drop everything to follow Him. A man, a young guy, a guy who I am not sure ever came to Christ. Judging by this story, he did not. BUT CHRIST STILL LOVED HIM. He still offered a way to be with Him, even when He knew He would be rejected by him. The rich young ruler went away sad, because he had great earthly wealth.
    Very nice. All sorts of verses lend themselves to doctrinal discussions. When Romans3:10-12 is thought to assert "no one does good", we can read Luke6:33 Jesus saying "sinners do good". When it is perceived that men do not participate in voluntary choice, we can read John7:17 "If anyone is willing to do His will". And so often it is context that proves a "predestinary verse" is really not predestinary; 2Cor4:3-4 is so with 2Cor3:16, 1Cor2:14 with 1Cor2:12, Jeremiah17:9 with Jer17:10. Sometimes the connections are farther apart; John6:37 and 44 and 65 connects to John17:6 and John8:42. 1Tim3:15 is connected to John5:39-40. 1Cor15:5 to 1Tim1:20. 2Tim2:25 connects to the story of the Prodigal, in Luke15 (in both cases they "came to their senses and REPENTED", rather than being passive recipients of God REPENTING them).

    It's the connections by which we establish our doctrine, as "Scripture inteprets Scripture".
    These 3 verses, to myself, show that God is love, and that God loves everyone. Not just the saved, but the lost as well. Not just the Christian, but the Muslim, the Hindu, and the Wicca. He hates our sin: He hates anything that is impure. Just like any parent of a wayward child will tell you, just because the child is not doing what they should be doing does not mean we do not love them. And, like any parent, God is the same way. He is our Father: we (everyone) is His creation. He loves His creation: He loves His children. But He allows us to CHOOSE if we want to love Him back. Free will comes into play here: He loves us, but do we love Him back? He died for us: will we die for Him?
    Amen. The Greatest Commandment is to love God; it is a commandment that He regards us as capable of obeying.
    I am not saying I have all the answers to all the questions: I still get confused about Him. But I know this: He waited a long time for me to come to Him. I hated Him, and yet He still loved me enough to send His Son to die for me. To die for you. To die for everyone. Because He is love; and, no matter what, He loves everyone. Even those whom He knows will be going to hell.
    And that very delay screams "non-predestination"; for if we were predestined out of His love, we would have been saved from childhood.
    This is why I believe what I do: and I hope I have answered your questions to me.
    Sorry to intrude on your post; but it was a very good post.

    :-)

  15. #345
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    Re: On "Free Will"

    A little more clarification for Keyser. To me, predestination can be somewhat illustrated by an analogy, ( it is not a perfect analogy, but it may be suitable, let the rest of you be judges of this). Predestination is a little bit like a father who wants his son to have a good education, so before he is even born he creates a college fund for Him, and by the time the son is old enough, he finds that he has more than enough money in his college fund to pay for college, books, a car for transportation, room and board, and everything else he could ever need. Yet if the son says "I don't want to go to college, I can make lots of money selling drugs or something" then he rejects his father's gift, and grieves his father. Or he may thankfully accept it. This is a feeble illustration, but it somewhat describes my view of predestination though not perfectly.

    Another analogy I have heard is an airplane ticket. Someone can buy you an airplane ticket and the destination is there, but you still have to get on the airplane. Someone else used this illustration on these message boards.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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