Calvinism / pre-destination

[John146]

I still have severe problems with this line of thinking... I am reading through the bible from cover to cover and in 2 Sam right now and it just seems that God's sovereignty is freaking everywhere and its stated in such a way that God is in control, not human beings.

You need to keep reading then because what is also found everywhere in scripture is people making their own decisions and often making decisions against God's desires. How do you explain the following passage with your doctrine:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

What was God's desire for the Jews in this case and what actually happened? Why did His desires for them not come to fruition?

[keyzer soze]

I did not actually say anything was lost when something is foreordained. The men who crucified Jesus did so of their own free will, but at the same time God ordained that it would happen. I do not know exactly how this works, but I will say that God already knew what they were going to will and do before He sent Jesus. Additionally, many who crucified Jesus repented afterwards, so perhaps God simply didnt give the mobs the wisdom or compassion to ask for Jesus release instead of Barabus, because it was necessary that Jesus die on the cross.

It is always God ( not any goodness of our flesh) that works in us to will and to do good, but we are very good at doing evil of our own free will. So in a sense a fallen man has enough will power to do the evil that he wants to do, but apart from Grace, he does not have the power to do the good. So God held back His Ho

God did not step in to deliver Jesus from the cross just as He did not step in to deliver Joseph from Egypt, but that doesnt necessarily mean that He was the one who influenced the men in both cases to do wickedly. He just didnt prevent them. They crucified Jesus because their hearts were wicked, yet God turned it for good. I guess it is only natural that evil would attack the perfect personification of perfection and God. God just allowed evil to have it's hour, then shattered evils power through the cross and the resurrection.

Luke 22:53- When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Thanks g4m, I appreciate your insight and appreciate seeing how you sort of draw the line. I acknowledge there is a line in the sand regarding how God uses evil and how evil is created.... its complex and over my head. I do believe that God is in "full command" of evil somehow yet not responsible, I do not believe any evil can happen without his "approval" in some sort of way that is over my pay grade... perhaps that is all the more logical I can get and I will have to ask God for faith to cover the rest!

[keyzer soze]

You need to keep reading then because what is also found everywhere in scripture is people making their own decisions and often making decisions against God's desires. How do you explain the following passage with your doctrine:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

What was God's desire for the Jews in this case and what actually happened? Why did His desires for them not come to fruition?

If you read my post #355 then you see that the very things that God is siting as having been of Him read like every other "free-will" act from man's perspective. When Saul went in the cave to take a poop and was delivered into David's hands don't you think Saul thought he entered that particular cave of his total free-will and probably thought that his bowel movement that he had coming on was a function of the free-will food he ate at the free-will time that he ate it. However, God clearly calls out in scripture things that are of the past and claims responsibility.

So in response to your question, I believe that verse you sited is very real to us and we do have free-will from our perspective in the present time. However, I also believe that it was INSIDE of God's plan from eternity past that Saul would pick that cave at that exact time to relieve himself and handed over to David for David to do with him what he wanted.... Does that make sense? Are you and I growing any closer in understanding John146?

[John146]

If you read my post #355 then you see that the very things that God is siting as having been of Him read like every other "free-will" act from man's perspective. When Saul went in the cave to take a poop and was delivered into David's hands don't you think Saul thought he entered that particular cave of his total free-will and probably thought that his bowel movement that he had coming on was a function of the free-will food he ate at the free-will time that he ate it.

Good grief, man. This seems like you are changing the subject. I wanted to discuss Matt 23:37-38 in particular, not David's bowel movements and whether he or God had control of them.

Look, I know that God does sometimes directly control things so that His plans will be fulfilled, but that doesn't mean every single thing that happens is according to His desires and/or plans. Do you make any distinction between His desires and His will? If you don't then you can't possibly understand how He works and how He relates to man, IMO.

However, God clearly calls out in scripture things that are of the past and claims responsibility.

So in response to your question,

Okay, back on track.

I believe that verse you sited is very real to us and we do have free-will from our perspective in the present time.

But Jesus was the one speaking in that passage. Wasn't His perspective the same as God's perspective? Was He not speaking of something He (and therefore God) wanted to do but didn't do it because the people were not willing (not because God wasn't willing, but because the people were not willing)? So, doesn't that mean the reason He didn't do it was, not because that was God's plan, but because it was conditional upon them and their response and since they didn't repent He didn't do what He would have done for them otherwise.

However, I also believe that it was INSIDE of God's plan from eternity past that Saul would pick that cave at that exact time to relieve himself and handed over to David for David to do with him what he wanted.... Does that make sense?

No.

Are you and I growing any closer in understanding John146?

No, we are not. You somehow think that man can freely choose whether or not to believe in Christ or reject Christ but at the same time whether they do or not is part of God's plan. That means you think it's really all up to God as to whether or not man believes in Christ and therefore that means man has no choice in the matter. A choice requires at least two valid options. But if God's choice trumps man's choice when it comes to salvation then man really has no choice at all since God chooses for him in that case.

[glad4mercy]

Thanks g4m, I appreciate your insight and appreciate seeing how you sort of draw the line. I acknowledge there is a line in the sand regarding how God uses evil and how evil is created.... its complex and over my head. I do believe that God is in "full command" of evil somehow yet not responsible, I do not believe any evil can happen without his "approval" in some sort of way that is over my pay grade... perhaps that is all the more logical I can get and I will have to ask God for faith to cover the rest!

I pretty much agree with these statements. The bottom line for me is Romans 8:28- " God works all things together for good to them that love Him, who are the called according to His purpose.

[keyzer soze]

Good grief, man. This seems like you are changing the subject. I wanted to discuss Matt 23:37-38 in particular, not David's bowel movements and whether he or God had control of them.

Look, I know that God does sometimes directly control things so that His plans will be fulfilled, but that doesn't mean every single thing that happens is according to His desires and/or plans. Do you make any distinction between His desires and His will? If you don't then you can't possibly understand how He works and how He relates to man, IMO.

Okay, back on track.

But Jesus was the one speaking in that passage. Wasn't His perspective the same as God's perspective? Was He not speaking of something He (and therefore God) wanted to do but didn't do it because the people were not willing (not because God wasn't willing, but because the people were not willing)? So, doesn't that mean the reason He didn't do it was, not because that was God's plan, but because it was conditional upon them and their response and since they didn't repent He didn't do what He would have done for them otherwise.

No.

No, we are not. You somehow think that man can freely choose whether or not to believe in Christ or reject Christ but at the same time whether they do or not is part of God's plan. That means you think it's really all up to God as to whether or not man believes in Christ and therefore that means man has no choice in the matter. A choice requires at least two valid options. But if God's choice trumps man's choice when it comes to salvation then man really has no choice at all since God chooses for him in that case.

Man has choice, we get to sin or not sin. I can choose between an act of selfishness or righteousness.

God does not have the same "free-will" so to speak as we have. God is perfect and holy and can't make a "choice" to become less than perfect. So I believe God wills or plans, which is perfect, while man has free-will inside of God's will/plan. That is really the best I can do. As I continue to read the O.T. and Romans it is becoming MORE CLEAR to me that this is the case. I am keeping an "open mind" but I just don't see in scripture where man has free-will outside of God's pre-creation plan.

[Gadgeteer]

Here's one: Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; [elect = chosen]

Huh-uh; you can't just grab a verse that says "elect", it hasta also convey "sovereignly-chosen-by-God". Romans8:33 works just fine with:
"Who will bring a charge against God's saved?"

And another: 2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Not only does this not assert "God's-sovereignly-chosen", the passage very clearly speaks against sovereign election.

Oh, and one more: (1Thess2:11 "we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father would his own children...") 1 Thessalonians 2:12 so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

What happened to "sovereign election, monergistic regeneration and irresistible faith/obedience/righteousness"? Why would Paul waste time IMPLORING one to walk in righteousness? Zero fit with "predestined-salvation", "Redeemed".

Sigh... I'm being repetitious, but here I guess folks just are glossing over this point.

Then don't be repetitious --- interact with what I said, and with the passage:

#10 says Paul suffers for the elect (same "eklektos" as in Matt24:24, where the elect CAN be led astray; same "elect/chosen" as in Matt22:2-14, where many-everyone is called, but few are elected --- only those who DECIDED to be elect!). Paul uses "tygchanō", 2nd aorist active subjunctive -- he suffers so the elect may obtain salvation! Now wait, does that mean the elect's salvation is in QUESTION? Yes! He's using "elect" in a POTENTIALITY sense, and that does not fit "sovereign predestination"!

#11-13 contrasts two possibilities for us --- "endure/eternal-life", set opposed to "deny-Jesus/faithless" and NOT receive eternal life. (Don't miss Matt10:33!)

#15 be diligent
#16 --- "ungodliness" is not compatible with "saved"
#17 Hymenaeus and Philetus fell from salvation!
#18 they caused OTHERS to fall from salvation!

This is as far from "predestined-salvation" as can get, Redeemed. Can you deny it?

You simply dismissed what I said, because there's no denying "Hymenaeus & Philetus fell from salvation and caused others to fall". Nor can anyone deny that Paul endures so that the elect, might be saved! How can you answer this passage?

God gives faith;

No He doesn't --- that may be the entire issue. It's OUR faith by which we're saved in 1Pet1:9. God receives MEN'S faith in Heb11:6. It's OUR faith that we build and by which we keep in His love in Jude20-21. It's our perseverance (faith!) that saves us in 1Tim4:16, Luke21:19, and many others. You can't just brush these verses away.

...well, you can, but then your doctrine will not be founded on what they wrote...

Also -- Eph2:8 does not say "faith is a gift from God", nor does any other passage; faith is the response to conviction.

"...the sacred Scriptures are able to give you wisdom that leads to SAVING-FAITH in Christ Jesus". 2Tim3:15.

Saving-faith comes NOT from God, but from conviction on studying Scriptures; or in Jn5:39-47 men can be so hung up on themselves that they REFUSE to become convicted.

God tests for faith.

Why? If He gives faith, why does He then test for faith? He's not senile. And WE are to test ourselves, 2Cor13:5. WE are to be diligent, measuring ourselves by our fruits, to make our calling and election FIRM/STEAFAST.

Why do we make "election" steadfast, Redeemed? Why doesn't sovereign-GOD make His sovereign gift steadfast? That can't be answered, can it?

A man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God,

No, it's not --- it's "by God/grace, through faith".

With our HEARTS we believe, Rom10:10. We become obedient from our HEARTS, Rom6:17. He is the source of salvation to all WHO obey Him, Heb5:9. God's justice responds TO faith, Rom3:26. These all fit together into solid doctrine; how will you respond?

because of God, least any man would boast, and as a believer is enlightened to 'being saved' to the day of his salvation, he should be able to one day look back as time is allowed and see that it was God who drew Him to Himself.

Of course it's He who draws --- Jesus said He would draw/drag all men to Himself, Jn12:32. Salvation is a gift --- the wisdom to RECEIVE that gift (Matt7:24-27!!!) is nothing to brag about, it is the opposite, recognition of one's [u]wickedness[u] and undeservedness!

BTW, regarding Matt7:24-27 -- why are MEN wise for believing, or foolish for not believing, if GOD decides? There's no answer for that either.

So there are two faiths, God-breathed... Man breathed. Which one are you? For faith comes by the hearing of the Gospel, with the heart that has been cultivated by the Holy spirit, and then instruction, and learning and correction, and heeding becomes as honey, where before it was just words.

With respect, zero Scripture citation; will you interact with all the verses cited to you? To begin with, the passage from 2Tim2. I'd love to hear (read!) your thoughts.

Thought you already knew those scriptures, Gadgeteer. But the facts still stand... Why Mary and not Sally. What did Mary do or say that granted her the position to be Jesus' earthly vehicle to come as a man? Why wasn't it Martha? The point is Mary and Joseph were chose of God for this specific role.

Chosen to bear Jesus' physical incarnation; not chosen to faith, they already had that! That's part of why they were CHOSEN. Why Mary and not Martha? Because Jesus wasn't twins-of-different-mothers? I was trying to be funny --- but Jesus could only be born from one mother.

Your predisposition wants a debate, not an understanding that God purposes His will being done....

No, I want an understanding which accommodates all the verses being cited to you.

To a man's eyes he sees that as God's choosing A over B, and I'm trying to show that the whole world is God's and that it was created by Him and for Him, and that man is His vehicle to His divine will... We plan and think and do, yet it's all within the direction of the Lord.

Show us with Scripture, as I've shown my beliefs with corroborating Scripture verses.

Listen, man has emotions and feelings and thoughts, agreed... Praise God! But man on his own is depraved. He is tainted because of Sin. Without God's divine intervention, no one would seek after God, let alone do things that were civil or good. His natural tendencies is for evil and self, just look around and see that. The crux of your and my faith is we come to Him, on our own accord and need and without doctrine, and we believe after hearing the gospel. But as we then dig into the word and read, it should be noted that we begin to see how big God is and note how involved He is with our lives. I can give to tons of scripture in support, but if the goal is to defend a side and not see the scriptures, what is the value?

What you are refusing to consider (and not just you, all who hold most any form of "predestined-salvation"), is that it's true we cannot come to Him on our own, but every last person born is DRAWN to Him sufficient for belief. There is no other way Deut30:11-20, with Rom10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31 can be understood.

"It is NOT difficult NOR too far, it is very near. The word of faith is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and GIVE it to us to make us hear it that we may observe it. No, it is in our hearts and in our mouths. If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. But if our hearts turn away and we will not obey, we will perish. God determines mens' places and times that they should seek God and ...find Him, though He is not far from any of us. God commands all men everywhere to repent. God has set before us life and death, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him."

That was all three passages combined, with minimal paraphrasing. Can you still deny it?

How?

[keyzer soze]

What you are refusing to consider (and not just you, all who hold most any form of "predestined-salvation"), is that true we cannot come to Him on our own, but every last person born is DRAWN to Him sufficient for belief. There is no other way Deut30:11-20, with Rom10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31 can be understood.

Please define "sufficient for belief" with respect to the fact that you agree that no human can come to Christ without God drawing him.

suf·fi·cient/səˈfiSHənt/
Adjective:
Enough; adequate.

So man can't do it himself and he needs God, and you claim that God draws every last man sufficiently.... then why isn't everyone saved? If sufficient means enough or adequate to be saved, then why isn't every man saved? You agree man can't get there without God, but you are making the bold statement that God can't save who God wants to save and I believe that is where you greatly underestimate the power of God's grace. If God truly offered "sufficient grace" to all to believe, well then all would be saved unless you believe God creates creatures that He can not draw onto Himself. If that is the case, I would like to see where in scripture you make that leap of faith...

[Gadgeteer]

So when I open up scripture and read all the wrongs that were done to Jesus, that was not ordained by God, rather humans did those things outside of God's control. So when God prophesies about the sins that would be done to Jesus, God is merely reporting the future events of which He is not the author of?

God cannot be causally involved in sin or evil. That's the import of what Jesus said in Matt12:25-31; by accusing Jesus of working with the devil, they were accusing the Holy Spirit of wickedness -- which was "ultimate blasphemy".

This is a new thought process/concept to me as I have always thought that Pilate did EXACTLY what God ordained would happen BEFORE Pilate ever had free-will. I always assumed that God knew every lashing Christ would take BEFORE creation and that the number of lashings was a function of God's will, not man kinds.

Knew, yes; caused no. Jesus was born in a place and time where He WOULD be crucified; but just as putting a penny on a train track creates an interesting flat piece of metal, nothing about the person placing the penny caused anything of the train that rolled over it.

I still have severe problems with this line of thinking... I am reading through the bible from cover to cover and in 2 Sam right now and it just seems that God's sovereignty is freaking everywhere and its stated in such a way that God is in control, not human beings. Here is an example from the passages I read just this morning:

God’s Covenant with David

8 “Now therefore, thus you shall say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel. 9 I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth. 10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly, 11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15 but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.”’” 17 In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

I struggle to see much wiggle room for free-will being OUTSIDE of God's sovereign plan.

Please read 1Samual23:12. God told David that if he stayed, he'd be captured. Two futures, and David could choose one.

Also --- with Bathsheba, because David repented he did not die.

God seems to be saying "I WILL", "I WILL" an awful lot here... Do you see where I am coming from here? Did God learn how exactly Jesus would die when man's free-will decided or did God WILL IT before man ever existed?

God willed the incident; He did not write the wickedness into men's hearts.

[glad4mercy]

God cannot be causally involved in sin or evil. That's the import of what Jesus said in Matt12:25-31; by accusing Jesus of working with the devil, they were accusing the Holy Spirit of wickedness -- which was "ultimate blasphemy".
Knew, yes; caused no. Jesus was born in a place and time where He WOULD be crucified; but just as putting a penny on a train track creates an interesting flat piece of metal, nothing about the person placing the penny caused anything of the train that rolled over it.
Please read 1Samual23:12. God told David that if he stayed, he'd be captured. Two futures, and David could choose one.

Also --- with Bathsheba, because David repented he did not die. God willed the incident; He did not write the wickedness into men's hearts.

Excellent post, Gadgeteer.

[Gadgeteer]

So John 3:16 isn't enough to convince you that God loves everyone? How about these then:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

"Not just us-believers, but also potentially to the whole world". Holos Kosmos cannot be made into "some-few-elect"...

1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

"Kings and all authority" cannot be made into "some-few-elect".

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"Specially", malista, above-all believers. Cannot be made into "some few elect".

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And then pay particular attention to this one:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Would Christ have wept over the people of Jerusalem if He didn't love them? He wept for them because He knew they were eventually going to be punished and destroyed because of rejecting Him. Would you actually try to say that God didn't love them? If God punishes people that doesn't mean He didn't care about them. It saddens God to have to do that to them but He is holy and must bring justice to unrepentant wickedness. It doesn't mean He takes any pleasure in punishing them and it doesn't mean He didn't love them.

Excellent quotes & comment, agree!

If He didn't then why would He have said this:

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Clearly, at the very least, He loves them while they are still alive and have a chance to repent since He wants them to repent and be saved rather than die in their wickedness. So, I don't see why He would stop loving them if they never do repent.

Then you aren't looking hard enough because that is found throughout scripture. He loves them personally but hates their behavior and wants them to repent of their evil ways.

Jesus came not for the righteous, but for sinners; Matt9:12-13. Under "predestination", regeneration is monergistic and not related to Jesus at all; faith in Jesus either follows regeneration, or accompanies. But then who did Jesus come for? If He came for the UN-regenerated, they cannot respond (under "Reformed Theology"); and if they are regenerated already, then it cannot be said that "He came for them", for they come to HIM.

Clearly, He came for the wicked, who --- through faith --- receive Him and the Spirit and become regenerated.

"Regeneration" not only comes before faith nowhere in Scripture, the very concept of "regeneration-before-faith" violates Scripture like Matthew9!

Excellent post, John!

[keyzer soze]

God cannot be causally involved in sin or evil. That's the import of what Jesus said in Matt12:25-31; by accusing Jesus of working with the devil, they were accusing the Holy Spirit of wickedness -- which was "ultimate blasphemy".
Knew, yes; caused no. Jesus was born in a place and time where He WOULD be crucified; but just as putting a penny on a train track creates an interesting flat piece of metal, nothing about the person placing the penny caused anything of the train that rolled over it.
Please read 1Samual23:12. God told David that if he stayed, he'd be captured. Two futures, and David could choose one.

Also --- with Bathsheba, because David repented he did not die. God willed the incident; He did not write the wickedness into men's hearts.

LOL, who here has claimed that God has caused sin? It's like you take what I write and twist it to make a point that I am not making. Where did I ever claim that God causes sin? I said God allows it and is in complete control. God is not reacting to sin and continuously changing His plan. God's plan includes sin from the beginning... His answer is called Jesus.

[Gadgeteer]

Please define "sufficient for belief" with respect to the fact that you agree that no human can come to Christ without God drawing him.

Keyzer, Jesus said (John15:5) "apart from Me you can do nothing". Everyone agrees that Jesus had to die because we are fallen; there is no goodness inherent in us. "Inherent goodness" is called "Pelagianism", and SOME inherent goodness is "Semi-Pelagianism". If we could be good, Jesus would not have had to made the ultimate sacrifice; He did what weak flesh could not. (Rom8:3)

The question is simply "Does God desire and sincerely/effectively call everyone to salvation?"

suf·fi·cient/səˈfiSHənt/
Adjective:
Enough; adequate.

So man can't do it himself and he needs God, and you claim that God draws every last man sufficiently.... then why isn't everyone saved?

Because --- men are conscious, and "Love does not demand its own way". God is LOVE --- love can only ask to be returned, else it is not "love".

(Ever see the movie, "The Stepford Wives"???)

If sufficient means enough or adequate to be saved, then why isn't every man saved? You agree man can't get there without God, but you are making the bold statement that God can't save whom God wants to save and I believe that is where you greatly underestimate the power of God's grace.

We are not saved by God's grace. Do you understand that?

We are saved by God's grace, through our faith. Equally at issue in this whole topic, is the question of "where does saving-faith come from?"

Where does it come from in 2Tim3:15? It comes from studying Scripture. So why doesn't every person who studies Scripture believe savingly? Jesus answered that, in the rebuke of John5:39-47 --- they studied Scripture but refused to come to Him to have life. Why? Because they WOULD not believe Moses, they sought each other's glory rather than God's, and mostly because they refused to love God.

If God truly offered "sufficient grace" to all to believe, well then all would be saved unless you believe God creates creatures that He can not draw onto Himself.

You are overlooking conscious sentient men. All men are drawn to Jesus-the-door, some simply refuse to enter in.

Jesus said in Matt22 that "the kingdom of Heaven is LIKE ____" What is it like? It's like a king who holds a wedding feast, and invites a few (the Jews); they refuse, so He invites everyone else (including Gentiles). But certain ones refused to come --- a man preferred business, another preferred farming; a third refused to put on clean clothes (symbolizing refusing God's righteousness). Many others refused, though their reasons are not stated. The KING, decided NOTHING of who came or who did not.

"Many (everyone you find!) are called, but FEW (those who come!) are chosen/elected!"

Each elected person, made the decision for himself; the invitation was to all.

"The kingdom of Heaven is LIKE ___" --- if that does not conspicuously state "This is how God presents salvation", then what was Jesus saying?

If that is the case, I would like to see where in scripture you make that leap of faith...

All are drawn; only conscious unbelief/love-of-sin is condemned. What is the cause of condemnation in John3:18? In 1Jn5:10? In Romans2:8? Each person's own choice!

Now -- look at what I put together from three passages, Deut30:11-20, Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31:

"It is NOT difficult NOR too far, it is very near. The word of faith is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and GIVE it to us to make us hear it that we may observe it. No, it is in our hearts and in our mouths. If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. But if our hearts turn away and we will not obey, we will perish. God determines mens' places and times that they should seek God and ...find Him, though He is not far from any of us. God commands all men everywhere to repent. God has set before us life and death, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him."

The second sentence is Deut30:12, which is a foundational refutation of "monergistic regeneration", the basis of "Predestined Salvation". Monergistic regeneration proposes that the word-of-faith IS in Heaven and God must reach down and monergistically GIVE it to a FEW so that they WILL believe. Paul said in Romans10:8 that it's the same word of faith as Deuteronomy30 expressed.

What do you do with these three passages, Keyzer? Do they or do they not propose that "the word of faith" is PUT in EVERY person's heart and mouth, and each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away and perish? If "not", then please tell what you think they express.

These three passages overturn "total inability" (God gives everyone the ability), "monergistic regeneration" (it's not too far nor too hard for ANYONE, He does not have to reach down and GIVE it before we can believe), and "exclusive election" (God determines that EVERYONE can believe, even commands it). Is there any way they don't?

In Matt22:37 the greatest commandment is to love God; is this said to those who are monergistically-regenerated so that they cannot do ELSE but love God? Is it said to those who are ordained to perish so they can NEVER love God? Or is it said to admonish people TO love God?

Whaddya think?

[Gadgeteer]

Excellent post, Gadgeteer.

Ya' scared me. The way it quoted in your post, I said: "Whuh -- God willed David to what?! Oh, no, I didn't really write --- oh whew!" :relieved:

:-)

The 1Sam quote I saw somewhere on the internet; seems a perfect response to the idea that "God ordains everything". There were two futures that God saw, and He gave David the choice. 1Cor10:13 is also an excellent rebuttal to "God-ordains-everything". We are not ordained to sin; God graciously provides an escape, and then permits us to choose.

...it is the "permit" idea that so fully ruins "predestined-salvation"...

[glad4mercy]

Ya' scared me. The way it quoted in your post, I said: "Whuh -- God willed David to what?! Oh, no, I didn't really write --- oh whew!" :relieved:

:-)

The 1Sam quote I saw somewhere on the internet; seems a perfect response to the idea that "God ordains everything". There were two futures that God saw, and He gave David the choice. 1Cor10:13 is also an excellent rebuttal to "God-ordains-everything". We are not ordained to sin; God graciously provides an escape, and then permits us to choose.

...it is the "permit" idea that so fully ruins "predestined-salvation"...

I'm confused. What happened?