You offered the exact same verses that have always been used in theological debates, and each has been shown not to be "Predestinary". You haven't offered anything that stands. Take 1Cor2:14, about the only one thought to assert "THINGS includes saving-belief, therefore natural/unregenerate men cannot believe savingly". But those things in verse 14 are not taught except by the received Spirit (verse 12!), and the Spirit is received after belief (Acts11:17). This can be ignored, but there is no way to deny it; Paul was clear, and so was Peter.
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
Better to make a note to read these verses, and if you or I cannot fit cited verses with prior doctrine, then it's the doctrine that must bend to fit Scripture.
Thanks for the reminder. [Note to self, no more scriptures in defending the Gospel to Gadgeteer.]
To date no verse has been offered by anyone that even leans towards
John recorded Jesus' words, "you can believe just by seeing", John10:38. In Jn20:29 Jesus said "You believe because you see? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
I really want to show AGAIN where, but for only the others who might be following along.... OK the easiest one is within the Gospel of John, and that's all I'll say.
How can one "believe-because-of-seeing", if belief is predestined? Why did John write his testament to convince the readers that Jesus is the Messiah --- and BELIEVING we might have life in His name? Jn20:31.
If "made-alive" cannot be separated from "born-again" (and no Reformed Theology person has ever denied this --- no one is made-alive without being born-again, and no one is born-again without also being made-alive) --- then how can "have-life" come squarely, undeniably, after belief in Jn20:31?
You just brush away what I said, and the verses I post. We read more and more warnings against falling, against being deceived away from Jesus, verses clearly indicating those who HAVE fallen from salvation, and you "see more and more every day how God's sovereign predestination is in Scripture".
Finally your mission is out in the open.... It's not declaring a position, it's a personal challenge for you against me... You can't position your side without attacking the other side, and in this case it's gone from a side to the individual... Sorry... you just don't get it... you say it's me.... but maybe it's you????
Show me where I've insulted you or tried to smear you, and I will try to make amends and earn your forgiveness. To me it simply looks like you won't engage the verses cited to you.
Are you a politician, for can't you just position your facts and not try to smear your 'opponent', funny I'm using the word opponent to someone who should be within the Body of Christ. See how far this has gone?
We all find God's sovereignty; but we also find man's responsibility.
Apparently not you. But don't take offense, for I know you enjoy being the leader. I'm fine with your views and even your approach, for I'd been treated worse here for my faith. If and when my 'view' changes, it will be because my Lord and Savior will open my heart to that.... And for the record, that happened again today as I was studying. Nothing from you stated changed my mind, just the opposite, for I found more elements to God's sovereignty in scriptures even now. Praise God.
"Do you think lightly of the riches of God's kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath..." Rm2:4-8
Where is the "predestined-salvation" in that? It does not fit, it cannot fit. Nor can men be called "wise" for believing or "unwise" for disbelieving, Matt7:24-27. All of Scripture only works with "Responsible Grace".
One day perhaps I'll understand the fierce devotion that Reformed Theology inspires in those who embrace it, in the face of refuting Scriptures. No offense meant to anyone.