Calvinism / pre-destination

[Redeemed by Grace]

John 4:23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

God is declaring that we must worship Him in spirit and truth. Not many folks here will understand or agree, but one must Have His Spirit and Jesus within them to worship God.

[glad4mercy]

John 4:23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

God is declaring that we must worship Him in spirit and truth. Not many folks here will understand or agree, but one must Have His Spirit and Jesus within them to worship God.

Who doesnt agree with this? Are you saying that we don't think that having the Holy Spirit, (who is the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God), within is necessary to worship God in Spirit and in truth? I don't know of anyone who would say this.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Who doesnt agree with this? Are you saying that we don't think that having the Holy Spirit, (who is the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God), within is necessary to worship God in Spirit and in truth? I don't know of anyone who would say this.

Hi G4M,

It's a little more deeper than it first appears. There are those within the Arminian camp who state that man makes the first move to Jesus, then he receives the Holy Spirit's indwelling, which however, if man decides not to be a believer any longer, or can't measure up to a set of works... will lose their salvation and the Holy Spirit will remove Himself from within Him.

However, as someone who is on the reformed persuasion and a God sovereigntist, God works within a man's heart and will and must first open his eyes and ears to the wisdom of the Gospel. As Jesus asked Peter who do you say that I am, and he declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God... and Jesus stated that it was wisdom given from God that He knew that, God must work in anyone and everyone who believes to see Him without the blinders of sin that each of us once were under. God works in hearts of men. Thus if our bulb is 100 watt or 1000, it makes no difference without it being connected to the power source. God's Spirit is that power and He works in the hearts of all believers... before and during their coming to an understanding of Jesus Christ.

This is what many will not understand nor accept. That God makes the first move, always.

[glad4mercy]

There are those within the Arminian camp who state that man makes the first move to Jesus, then he receives the Holy Spirit's indwelling,

Yes, but not all Arminians believed this. I was a Free Will Baptist and a Nazarene in the past, and Free Will Baptists believed that it was necessary for a person to be drawn by God, and Nazarenes called it "prevenient Grace". Sometimes people of the reformed persuasion accuse Arminians of being Pelagian or semi pelagian, but this is often due to a misunderstanding of what Arminians actually teach. ( By the way, I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I have long forsaken these types of labels.)

if man decides not to be a believer any longer, or can't measure up to a set of works... will lose their salvation and the Holy Spirit will remove Himself from within Him.

Actually, the majority of Arminians do not teach this either. What many teach is if a person does not abide in the faith and dies in a state of unbelief and/or rebellion against God they lose their salvation. Others teach that apostasy is possible, but do not equate apostasy with backsliding. A person can backslide, but not be an apostate, meaning that they need to rededicate and recommit their life to the Lord, but that they are not saved over and over again. A person cannot lose their salvation and then get saved again, the book of Hebrews makes this clear. A person may backslide, and God will convict them, then chasten them. If a person continually hardens their heart in the face of God's perservering grace, then apostasy can take place, but it does not happen by accident. It is a willfull and persistent departure from God, choosing to love sin and or the world instead of loving God. Most Calvinists would say such a person was never saved, most Arminians would say they were either never saved or they fell away. Either way, I would say that the Bible does not paint an optimistic picture of a person who once professed to trust Christ, then walked away from Him for the sake of the pleasures of sin, for the love of the world, or because they fell away in times of hardship.

Galatians 6: 7 Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

However, as someone who is on the reformed persuasion and a God sovereigntist,

Reformed theology is not the only theology that holds God to be Soveriegn. Every orthodox Christian believes this.

As Jesus asked Peter who do you say that I am, and he declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God... and Jesus stated that it was wisdom given from God

Arminians and Wesleyens do not deny the fact that only God can illuminate the heart to understand the truth.

God's Spirit is that power and He works in the hearts of all believers... before and during their coming to an understanding of Jesus Christ.

So you believe that a person is "born again" first, and then repents and believes. I say that the eyes of a Christian's heart are opened by Divine illumination, God's Spirit convicts them of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement, and the Holy Spirit draws them to come to Jesus by the preaching of the Gospel. Then they which hear the call of God and repent and believe are "born again and called unto holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. In both interpretations, the Spirit is the power that convicts, illuminates the heart, regenerates, sanctifies, etc.

Lastly, good works do not lead to holiness, holiness of heart leads to works of faith and labors of love. Holiness is the fruit of the Spirit. Regeneration is the seed planted, Holiness is the fruit produced, and glorification is reaping of Holiness, for it is written "let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we will reap if we faint not.

Galatians 6: 7 Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing : for in due season we shall reap , if we faint not.

Romans 8: 12 Therefore , brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live .14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I agree with some points of Calvinism, but I disagree with others. I agree with some points of Arminianism, and I stand in doubt of other points of Arminianism. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I think the truth is somewhere in between, (just my humble opinion.)

[Noeb]

Who doesnt agree with this? Are you saying that we don't think that having the Holy Spirit, (who is the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God), within is necessary to worship God in Spirit and in truth? I don't know of anyone who would say this.

Of course it's not true. When jesus said that were people walking around with the spirit/Jesus in them?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Yes, but not all Arminians believed this. I was a Free Will Baptist and a Nazarene in the past, and Free Will Baptists believed that it was necessary for a person to be drawn by God, and Nazarenes called it "prevenient Grace". Sometimes people of the reformed persuasion accuse Arminians of being Pelagian or semi pelagian, but this is often due to a misunderstanding of what Arminians actually teach. ( By the way, I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I have long forsaken these types of labels.)

Nor am I...

Actually, the majority of Arminians do not teach this either. What many teach is if a person does not abide in the faith and dies in a state of unbelief and/or rebellion against God they lose their salvation. Others teach that apostasy is possible, but do not equate apostasy with backsliding. A person can backslide, but not be an apostate, meaning that they need to rededicate and recommit their life to the Lord, but that they are not saved over and over again. A person cannot lose their salvation and then get saved again, the book of Hebrews makes this clear. A person may backslide, and God will convict them, then chasten them. If a person continually hardens their heart in the face of God's perservering grace, then apostasy can take place, but it does not happen by accident. It is a willfull and persistent departure from God, choosing to love sin and or the world instead of loving God. Most Calvinists would say such a person was never saved, most Arminians would say they were either never saved or they fell away. Either way, I would say that the Bible does not paint an optimistic picture of a person who once professed to trust Christ, then walked away from Him for the sake of the pleasures of sin, for the love of the world, or because they fell away in times of hardship.

I don't see a biblical stance that would be define a backsliding Christian, or even an apostate Christian who was saved in the first place, then falls away denouncing Christ. Salvation is of the Lord. Thus what God calls clean and what God declares saved, is saved. Thus a person's behavior should be changing as evidence to self, more than to the Lord.

Reformed theology is not the only theology that holds God to be Sovereign.

This reference was used as reference to my background

Every orthodox Christian believes this.



Arminians and Wesleyens do not deny the fact that only God can illuminate the heart to understand the truth.



So you believe that a person is "born again" first, and then repents and believes.

More or less, yes. As the date of one's physical birth is determined, so too is one spiritual birth. Thus as part of that event, God has to unblind the heart [till the soil] for the Gospel seed to take hold.... Thus some plant, some water, but the Lord does the growing.... So it is conceivable that God works on a person's heart, minutes, hours, days, months, or years before the actual day the person hears the Gospel again for the 1st time and faith is bestowed.

I say that the eyes of a Christian's heart are opened by Divine illumination, God's Spirit convicts them of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement, and the Holy Spirit draws them to come to Jesus by the preaching of the Gospel. Then they which hear the call of God and repent and believe are "born again and called unto holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. In both interpretations, the Spirit is the power that convicts, illuminates the heart, regenerates, sanctifies, etc.

Lastly, good works do not lead to holiness, holiness of heart leads to works of faith and labors of love. Holiness is the fruit of the Spirit. Regeneration is the seed planted, Holiness is the fruit produced, and glorification is reaping of Holiness, for it is written "let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we will reap if we faint not.

With few modification, would say very close as to what I understand.

[Noeb]

Jesus was replying to a comment about worshipping in this mountain or that mountain. The verse has nothing to do with what RbG used it for.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi G4M,

It's a little more deeper than it first appears. There are those within the Arminian camp who state that man makes the first move to Jesus, then he receives the Holy Spirit's indwelling...

Wrapped around this statement is your belief that man must be regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit first, only then can he believe savingly (and for him belief is irresistible). But there is NO verse in Scripture placing "regeneration", or "indwelling-by-the-Spirit", before belief; and there is NO verse which asserts "unregenerated men cannot believe in Jesus and be saved". Scripture says the opposite.

We proved that "faith" is something God receives from men, not something He gives to men. I gave you Heb11:6, Acts10:34-35, 1Pet1:9 and others; what did you cite? Nothing. You posted your position absent Scriptures.

We discussed Eph2:8, 2Tim2:25, 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, Ezk36:26-27 and others; you cited nothing, just posted your position absent Scriptures.

With respect, why do you hold to a position that you cannot support with Scripture? If I'm wrong about that, then please tell us what Scriptures support?

which however, if man decides not to be a believer any longer, or can't measure up to a set of works... will lose their salvation and the Holy Spirit will remove Himself from within Him.

Salvation is by God's grace through our faith. We discussed Eph4:22-24 "be regenerated", 2Cor5:20 "be reconciled", Rom12:2 "be transformed", and Eph5:18 "be filled with the Spirit" --- not dictates delivered to anyone for whom it's a "done deal". We discussed walk/abide in Jesus verses like Col2:6-8 and 1Jn2:26-28, verses cast clearly in the midst of "guard yourselves against deceivers who lure you away from Christ!". We discussed the balance between 1Jn2:19 and 2Jn1:7-9, where deceivers CAN make some "go too far", or "go out from us and STOP being saved". We discussed Matt23:13-15 where Pharisees CAN stop/shut-off those who WERE ENTERING, making them into twice children of Hell as they were. You have not interacted with these verses.

However, as someone who is on the reformed persuasion and a God sovereigntist

...absent any support in Scripture...

God works within a man's heart and will and must first open his eyes and ears to the wisdom of the Gospel.

What verse? It's not 2Cor4:3-4. It's not Ezk36:26-27. It's not 1Cor2:14. It's not Mark4:11-12. Exactly where is the concept "God regenerates a man and opens his eyes and only THEN can he believe and be saved"? And how does the fact that we still SIN fit into that, isn't God good enough to change our hearts sufficiently?

And exactly where is "eye-opening" in Matt9:12-13 --- Jesus came for WHO? The "already-eye-opened" righteous who don't NEED Him? Or the eye-closed who can't RESPOND?

As Jesus asked Peter who do you say that I am, and he declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God... and Jesus stated that it was wisdom given from God that He knew that, God must work in anyone and everyone who believes to see Him without the blinders of sin that each of us once were under. God works in hearts of men.

Was Peter a believer before he understood Jesus' Messiahship?

Thus if our bulb is 100 watt or 1000, it makes no difference without it being connected to the power source. God's Spirit is that power and He works in the hearts of all believers... before and during their coming to an understanding of Jesus Christ.

This is a redefinition of terms; you're not just proposing "WORKING in men's hearts", Reformed Theology proposes complete, unilateral, monergistic regeneration. ABSENT belief. And we read in Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31 that the word of faith is in ALL men, each CAN confess/believe/be-saved, OR can turn away in disbelief and perish. We read Deut30:12 which foundationally overturns "monergistic regeneration" --- it is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it and give it to us, to make us hear it so that we observe it; no, it is very near, it is not difficult!

Very near and not difficult for whom? Those to whom it's been sovereignly GIVEN (and therefore it's not just "near/not-difficult", it's already WITH them intimately)? Or those from whom God has forever BARRED eternal life (therefore it's forever too far and infinitely too difficult)?

This is what many will not understand nor accept. That God makes the first move, always.

What move is that? Jesus said He will draw ALL MEN to Himself; "draw", helkuo-drag-forcibly. All men. Mercy on all men (Rom11:32). Savior of all men (1Tim4:10). Savior of the WORLD (Jn4:42).

You conclude every post with your signature:

"Enter by the Narrow Gate...
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
... there are few who find it."

...and you refuse to accept that Jesus used "heurisko", present active participle (are finding it!).

heuriskō:
1) to come upon, hit upon, to meet with
.....a) after searching, to find a thing sought
.....b) without previous search, to find (by chance), to fall in with
.....c) those who come or return to a place
2) to find by enquiry, thought, examination, scrutiny, observation, to find out by practice and experience
.....a) to see, learn, discover, understand
.....b) to be found i.e. to be seen, be present
.....c) to be discovered, recognised, detected, to show one's self out, of one's character or state as found out by others (men, God, or both)
.....d) to get knowledge of, come to know, God
3) to find out for one's self, to acquire, get, obtain, procure

Many translations say "find-by-DILIGENTLY-SEEKING". But your doctrine asserts "they do NOT find it by diligently seeking, God finds THEM and THEN they turn to God".

What will it take to convince you?

[keyzer soze]

What will it take to convince you?

According to your theology only his own "free-will" can convince him. So it's up to you to write more convincing posts.

According to RBG's theology it will take the Holy Spirit. If you go with this theology perhaps praying for wisdom in the matter for RBG would help.

[Gadgeteer]

I don't see a biblical stance that would be define a backsliding Christian, or even an apostate Christian who was saved in the first place, then falls away denouncing Christ.

James5:19-20 is one. 1Tim1:19-20, 6:10 & 20-21 and 2Tim2:17-18 are more. 1Tim4:1. 2Cor11:3. Rom11:18-23. Shall we discuss more?

Salvation is of the Lord. Thus what God calls clean and what God declares saved, is saved. Thus a person's behavior should be changing as evidence to self, more than to the Lord.

Then why do we SIN (1Cor10:13)? And if we CONTINUE in sin, what happens (Heb10:26-29)?

So you believe that a person is "born again" first, and then repents and believes.

More or less, yes.

"Born-again", is "born-from-above", is "become-adopted-sons-of-God", is "become-begotten"; and for you it is before belief. Regardless of Romans8:15 where we RECEIVE the Spirit of adoption by which we cry "Abba! Father!" --- you would have us receiving the Spirit before belief. You know that does not happen --- it is after belief (Acts10:45-47, 11:15 & 17).

As the date of one's physical birth is determined, so too is one spiritual birth. Thus as part of that event, God has to unblind the heart

Zero support --- not Mark4:11-12, not 2Cor4:3-4, not Ezk36:26-27, not 1Cor2:14, not anywhere!

[till the soil]

Like the soil was tilled in Heb6:7-8, and they could produce EITHER good fruit OR thorns? Like Isaiah5:1-3 where the soil was tilled (vineyard planted) and expected to produce good fruit, but it didn't?

for the Gospel seed to take hold.... Thus some plant, some water, but the Lord does the growing.... So it is conceivable that God works on a person's heart, minutes, hours, days, months, or years before the actual day the person hears the Gospel again for the 1st time and faith is bestowed.

You are not proposing "God-works-on-a-person's-heart"; you are proposing full complete regeneration and born-again, before (apart from!) belief! Belief then follows irresistibly, or accompanies that regeneration! Zero Scriptural support.

I say that the eyes of a Christian's heart are opened by Divine illumination, God's Spirit convicts them of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, and the Holy Spirit draws them to come to Jesus by the preaching of the Gospel. Then they which hear the call of God and repent and believe are "born again and called unto holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. In both interpretations, the Spirit is the power that convicts, illuminates the heart, regenerates, sanctifies, etc.

Lastly, good works do not lead to holiness, holiness of heart leads to works of faith and labors of love. Holiness is the fruit of the Spirit. Regeneration is the seed planted, Holiness is the fruit produced, and glorification is reaping of Holiness, for it is written "let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we will reap if we faint not.

With few modifications, would say very close as to what I understand.

Pretty major modifications -- he says "all are called/drawn, they which hear the call and repent and believe are born again; those who resist perish". You say "only the FEW CALLED hear and then they WILL repent and believe irresistibly".

You now have a full arsenal of what Scripture truly teaches; and it is not anywhere close to "Reformed Theology". Every RT verse previously thought to support has been shown not to. Further, we've discussed true "fall-from-salvation" verses (remember Heb3:6-14, or 4:11?). Some of them with NAMES (like Hymenaeus, Alexander, Philetus, and Demas).

What are you going to do, "Redeemed"? Shrug off these verses and continue with Reformed Theology?
The Tennis term is, "the ball is now in your court".

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

According to your theology only his own "free-will" can convince him. So it's up to you to write more convincing posts.

Hah hah hah! Nice!

According to RBG's theology it will take the Holy Spirit. If you go with this theology perhaps praying for wisdom in the matter for RBG would help.

Too true! Yet, the Spirit does not teach separate from Scripture; if we find our doctrine in Scripture, then the Spirit corroborates. And I'm meaning no disrespect to those of Reformed Theology; I know what verses they use (founding, Rom9:11-21, Rom8:29-35, Eph1:4-5, and Eph1:11 --- about 30-35 secondary verses). One by one we've discussed most of those verses and found they do not support "predestined-salvation". Each of us begins thinking our doctrine is from Scripture; as "iron-sharpens-iron", venues like message boards allow us to test what we've learned, to see if it stands up to the rest of Scripture. Every person who lets others see through their eyes, blesses the others; be they "Reformed Theology", "Eternal Security", or "Responsible Grace".

But praying for another's understanding is very valid; and if anyone prays for MY understanding, I will accept that prayer with gratefulness!

:-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

Wrapped around this statement is your belief that man must be regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit first, only then can he believe savingly (and for him belief is irresistible). But there is NO verse in Scripture placing "regeneration", or "indwelling-by-the-Spirit", before belief; and there is NO verse which asserts "unregenerated men cannot believe in Jesus and be saved". Scripture says the opposite.

Indwelt? Hmmmm never thought about it in those terms, change of heart first yes. Indwelt before believing, maybe. And there are ton of scriptures I've used... it's just you don't recognize them as such.

We proved that "faith" is something God receives from men, not something He gives to men. I gave you Heb11:6, Acts10:34-35, 1Pet1:9 and others; what did you cite? Nothing. You posted your position absent Scriptures.

You proved nothing. Your doctrine clouds your views. I'm not here to debate your views just to declare the Gospel of Jesus...

You are big to attack, but I resist, for your spirit lusts after conflict with me... I have declared everywhere that Faith is a gift, and that testing and works are towards that faith as fire is towards purification. A man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man would boast. God gives faith; God tests for faith, so all you read about in the bible is caution and warning and learning -- only to the man and women of God, for by His resident Spirit within them, they then will heed, learn and obey.

We discussed Eph2:8, 2Tim2:25, 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, Ezk36:26-27 and others; you cited nothing, just posted your position absent Scriptures.

What is it that you want, fellowship or conversion? I read you as looking at this as a conquest, a gauntlet, a dare.... and I see this as an attempt as to lead someone astray - me ... for which I know in what I believe and I am persuaded that it is the truth. I have posted many a scriptures in many a threads, I just chose not to do it here with you at the moment, for again as I stated very early on, it is unprofitable to debate how someone got saved. If we are both saved... Rejoice. Your walk is your walk... My walk is my walk... what you know or don't know is between you and the Lord, as the same with me. I post for those who are looking for instruction, for whom God has given them like-minded wisdom, and to them encouragement to study and see. Let's disagree and move on already, for the horse on this is days dead.

With respect, why do you hold to a position that you cannot support with Scripture?

I am fine that you think I can't support it.... I can, I have, and I could, I just choose not to between us for now, don't see the profit in it... Hey... see a choice...

If I'm wrong about that, then please tell us what Scriptures support?
Salvation is by God's grace through our faith. We discussed Eph4:22-24 "be regenerated", 2Cor5:20 "be reconciled", Rom12:2 "be transformed", and Eph5:18 "be filled with the Spirit" --- not dictates delivered to anyone for whom it's a "done deal".

Wait a minute, first you say I didn't offer scripture - now you say I did... Rats, must of had a weak moment and thought maybe we could relate. Thanks for the reminder. [Note to self, no more scriptures in defending the Gospel to Gadgeteer.]

We discussed walk/abide in Jesus verses like Col2:6-8 and 1Jn2:26-28, verses cast clearly in the midst of "guard yourselves against deceivers who lure you away from Christ!". We discussed the balance between 1Jn2:19 and 2Jn1:7-9, where deceivers CAN make some "go too far", or "go out from us and STOP being saved". We discussed Matt23:13-15 where Pharisees CAN stop/shut-off those who WERE ENTERING, making them into twice children of Hell as they were. You have not interacted with these verses.
...absent any support in Scripture... What verse? It's not 2Cor4:3-4. It's not Ezk36:26-27. It's not 1Cor2:14. It's not Mark4:11-12. Exactly where is the concept "God regenerates a man and opens his eyes and only THEN can he believe and be saved"? And how does the fact that we still SIN fit into that, isn't God good enough to change our hearts sufficiently?

I really want to show AGAIN where, but for only the others who might be following along.... OK the easiest one is within the Gospel of John, and that's all I'll say.

And exactly where is "eye-opening" in Matt9:12-13 --- Jesus came for WHO? The "already-eye-opened" righteous who don't NEED Him? Or the eye-closed who can't RESPOND? Was Peter a believer before he understood Jesus' Messiahship? This is a redefinition of terms; you're not just proposing "WORKING in men's hearts", Reformed Theology proposes complete, unilateral, monergistic regeneration. ABSENT belief. And we read in Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31 that the word of faith is in ALL men, each CAN confess/believe/be-saved, OR can turn away in disbelief and perish. We read Deut30:12 which foundationally overturns "monergistic regeneration" --- it is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it and give it to us, to make us hear it so that we observe it; no, it is very near, it is not difficult!

Very near and not difficult for whom? Those to whom it's been sovereignly GIVEN (and therefore it's not just "near/not-difficult", it's already WITH them intimately)? Or those from whom God has forever BARRED eternal life (therefore it's forever too far and infinitely too difficult)?
What move is that? Jesus said He will draw ALL MEN to Himself; "draw", helkuo-drag-forcibly. All men. Mercy on all men (Rom11:32). Savior of all men (1Tim4:10). Savior of the WORLD (Jn4:42).

You conclude every post with your signature: ...and you refuse to accept that Jesus used "heurisko", present active participle (are finding it!).

Finally your mission is out in the open.... It's not declaring a position, it's a personal challenge for you against me... You can't position your side without attacking the other side, and in this case it's gone from a side to the individual... Sorry... you just don't get it... you say it's me.... but maybe it's you???? Are you a politician, for can't you just position your facts and not try to smear your 'opponent', funny I'm using the word opponent to someone who should be within the Body of Christ. See how far this has gone?

heuriskō:
1) to come upon, hit upon, to meet with
.....a) after searching, to find a thing sought
.....b) without previous search, to find (by chance), to fall in with
.....c) those who come or return to a place
2) to find by enquiry, thought, examination, scrutiny, observation, to find out by practice and experience
.....a) to see, learn, discover, understand
.....b) to be found i.e. to be seen, be present
.....c) to be discovered, recognised, detected, to show one's self out, of one's character or state as found out by others (men, God, or both)
.....d) to get knowledge of, come to know, God
3) to find out for one's self, to acquire, get, obtain, procure

Many translations say "find-by-DILIGENTLY-SEEKING". But your doctrine asserts "they do NOT find it by diligently seeking, God finds THEM and THEN they turn to God".

What will it take to convince you?

Apparently not you. But don't take offense, for I know you enjoy being the leader. I'm fine with your views and even your approach, for I'd been treated worse here for my faith. If and when my 'view' changes, it will be because my Lord and Savior will open my heart to that.... And for the record, that happened again today as I was studying. Nothing from you stated changed my mind, just the opposite, for I found more elements to God's sovereignty in scriptures even now. Praise God.

[Gadgeteer]

Indwelt? Hmmmm never thought about it in those terms, change of heart first yes.

And that's the problem --- God responds to faith, not before. Heb11:6; Acts10:34-35; Rom3:26.

Indwelt before believing, maybe.

Can't be -- the Spirit does not indwell before being received, and that is after belief. In Acts10:45-47 they "received" the Spirit (same as "poured-upon-them", "gifted", "fell-upon-them"); in 11:17 it is after belief. Your position is "born-again before belief", but Rom8:15 says "Received the Spirit of adoption" --- an unrepentant sinner does not receive the Spirit.

And there are ton of scriptures I've used... it's just you don't recognize them as such.

No, it's not "unrecognized", I responded to every one. Here are classic "Reformed" verses and my responses, some of which you posted:
2Cor4:3-4 is in context with 2Cor3:16, turn to God BEFORE veil-over-eyes removed.
Ezk36:26-27 is a mirror of Ezk11:18-21, turn to God BEFORE hearts made new.
.....(and Ezk18 says "make for YOURSELVES a new heart and spirit!")
1Cor2:14 is in context with 1Cor2:12, we receive the Spirit before the "things" are taught
Rom3:10-12 must be read with Luke6:33, "sinners do good"
.....(And Rom3:26 says God's justice responds TO men's faith)
John6:37, 44 & 65 must be read with Jn17:6, they belong to God BEFORE being given to Jesus
John10:26-28 is in context with John10:38, "you can believe by SEEING".
Jeremiah13:23 has another HALF, "you CAN also do good".

With sincere respect and love for you, for well over ten years I've seen Reformed Theology proponents simply ignore these Scriptural proofs, and then weeks or even days later still post the exact same "proof-texts" --- 1Cor2:14, Jn6:37 44 & 65, Jn10:26-28, 2Cor4:3-4, Ezk36:26-27, and so on. Sometimes worse; verses like Prov16:4 and Rom9:21-22 used to try to assert God CAUSES sin and wickedness!

You proved nothing. Your doctrine clouds your views. I'm not here to debate your views just to declare the Gospel of Jesus...

They're not "my views", Redeemed. Does 2Cor3:16 place "turning-to-God" before veil-removing? Does Ezk11:18 place "turning away from abominations towards God before heart-change"? Does 1Cor2:12 say that it's the RECEIVED (by belief!) Spirit that teaches us the THINGS that natural men do not understand in 1Cor2:14?

Are we "born-again/born-from-above/begotten-of-God/adopted" before receiving the Spirit by belief, Rom8:15?

Does Hebrews12:7-9 propose that we can CEASE being "born-of-God", and present the position as a continuing choice?

You can answer these questions "yes", or you can ignore them. If there is a "no" then help everyone here understand what the writers really wrote.

You are big to attack, but I resist, for your spirit lusts after conflict with me...

There is no "attack", nor "lusting after conflict". But as Jude said "earnestly contending for the faith", and in Titus "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict". You said that you don't know of anywhere in Scripture where a saved person becomes unsaved; I gave you names --- Hymenaeus and Alexander and Philetus, and likely Demas. We read James5:19-20 --- can a person be led astray from faith he never had, and be led back to where he never was? We can understand "no he can't", or we can ignore the passage, or if you have some way of answering "yes" then what is the way?

I have declared everywhere that Faith is a gift,

Yes, you have declared that; but does Scripture declare that? This is not "you against me", nor "me against you"; it is two saved brothers studying Scripture together. You and I are not Greek scholars --- but we have Robertson, who said "Grace is God's part and faith is ours". We know dia-pistis is a prepositional phrase, so Eph2:8 cannot be asserting "FAITH is gifted to us by God".

and that testing and works are towards that faith as fire is towards purification.

Why? If faith is gifted, then was there something wrong or incomplete about that gift, that faith has to be matured? Jude says "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, keep YOURSELVES in the love of God".

What did Ezekiel mean by "make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit"? (18:31)

A man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.

Not according to Paul in Rom2:4-8. You've not answered how God's kindness can lead to repentance, but stubborn unrepentance stores up wrath for themselves.

Was He leading them to repentance, or not?

What did Peter mean in 1:1:9, "receive as the outcome of your faith salvation"? Why didn't he say
"receive from God faith and salvation"?

And a greater question, why are we warned in 2:1:5-11 to make our election firm/steadfast? Isn't God sovereign enough to predestine our election firm by itself? That's very "non-predestinary", isn't it?

[Gadgeteer]

God gives faith;

I gave you Hebrews11:6; does God give or receive faith there? How about in Acts10:34-35, where God welcoming those who do NOT revere Him and do NOT seek righteousness is partiality that God is not?

How is Reformed Theology not casting God as "biased and partial"?

God tests for faith,

We test ourselves, in 2Cor13:5. And in 2Pet1:5-11. God does our hearts, even though wicked, in Jeremiah17:10; once again His position is in response to men!

so all you read about in the bible is caution and warning and learning -- only to the man and women of God, for by His resident Spirit within them, they then will heed, learn and obey.

Then why do we sin? What's wrong with God's monergistic regeneration and "new heart" He places in men so that they WILL believe and follow Him?

Why does Paul warn us to "not continue submitting our bodies as instruments of unrighteousness, but submit ourselves to God and our bodies as instruments of righteousness", in Romans6?

Why are we warned to "lay aside the old man and put on the new, be renewed in the spirit of our minds" in Eph4:22-24 --- is God's sovereign monergistic regeneration defective?

Again --- I mean no offense. You may not have been challenged on these points before. You can of course ignore the challenges, or you can meet them --- but if you cannot respond to the Scriptures cited, will you conform doctrine to Scripture? And yes I know you have believed you were doing that; do you still think so?

What is it that you want, fellowship or conversion? I read you as looking at this as a conquest, a gauntlet, a dare.... and I see this as an attempt as to lead someone astray - me...

Both. I like you, that is a fact; really love you as a brother; and I wish to lead you in sound doctrine, for Jesus' glory. My "leading" is right, or it is wrong. Show me if it is wrong. Engage the verses.

for which I know in what I believe and I am persuaded that it is the truth. I have posted many a scriptures in many a threads, I just chose not to do it here with you at the moment, for again as I stated very early on, it is unprofitable to debate how someone got saved. If we are both saved... Rejoice. Your walk is your walk... My walk is my walk... what you know or don't know is between you and the Lord, as the same with me. I post for those who are looking for instruction, for whom God has given them like-minded wisdom, and to them encouragement to study and see. Let's disagree and move on already, for the horse on this is days dead.

There are many more people than just you and me here. If we both cite Scripture, others will look them up to see if the Scriptures support what we say. What I want for you is to be strengthened in Christ, and to grow into His purpose; if you find that in "Reformed Theology", then you and I will serve Him together, and be with Him forever.

Yet --- if you (or anyone reading!) experience temptation/deception, and if something we've discussed here strengthens your heart, then I have STILL won you as a brother forever.

My success is in terms of how I have served Christ, and how I have encouraged people in the faith; it is exactly as Paul said in Philip2:16, where he judged his own success in terms of how his followers persevered in salvation.

I am fine that you think I can't support it.... I can, I have, and I could, I just choose not to between us for now, don't see the profit in it... Hey... see a choice...

As you wish. But the other readers here have looked up the verses, and they know 2Cor3:16 overturns the RT thought on 2Cor4:3-4. They know that Ezk11:18-21 overturns the RT thought on Ezk36:26-27. They know that Matt13:15 overturns the RT thought of Mark4:11-12. They know that 1Cor2:12 overturns the RT thought on 1Cor2:14, and so on. The argument is not with me, or any contemporary person; it is with what they wrote.

...and they read about people being DESTROYED from eternal life in Romans14:15, in 1Cor8:11, in Matt23:13-15, and in literally dozens of other verses.

[Gadgeteer]

Wait a minute, first you say I didn't offer scripture - now you say I did... Rats, must of had a weak moment and thought maybe we could relate.

You offered the exact same verses that have always been used in theological debates, and each has been shown not to be "Predestinary". You haven't offered anything that stands. Take 1Cor2:14, about the only one thought to assert "THINGS includes saving-belief, therefore natural/unregenerate men cannot believe savingly". But those things in verse 14 are not taught except by the received Spirit (verse 12!), and the Spirit is received after belief (Acts11:17). This can be ignored, but there is no way to deny it; Paul was clear, and so was Peter.

Thanks for the reminder. [Note to self, no more scriptures in defending the Gospel to Gadgeteer.]

Better to make a note to read these verses, and if you or I cannot fit cited verses with prior doctrine, then it's the doctrine that must bend to fit Scripture.

To date no verse has been offered by anyone that even leans towards

I really want to show AGAIN where, but for only the others who might be following along.... OK the easiest one is within the Gospel of John, and that's all I'll say.

John recorded Jesus' words, "you can believe just by seeing", John10:38. In Jn20:29 Jesus said "You believe because you see? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

How can one "believe-because-of-seeing", if belief is predestined? Why did John write his testament to convince the readers that Jesus is the Messiah --- and BELIEVING we might have life in His name? Jn20:31.

If "made-alive" cannot be separated from "born-again" (and no Reformed Theology person has ever denied this --- no one is made-alive without being born-again, and no one is born-again without also being made-alive) --- then how can "have-life" come squarely, undeniably, after belief in Jn20:31?

Finally your mission is out in the open.... It's not declaring a position, it's a personal challenge for you against me... You can't position your side without attacking the other side, and in this case it's gone from a side to the individual... Sorry... you just don't get it... you say it's me.... but maybe it's you????

You just brush away what I said, and the verses I post. We read more and more warnings against falling, against being deceived away from Jesus, verses clearly indicating those who HAVE fallen from salvation, and you "see more and more every day how God's sovereign predestination is in Scripture".

Where?

Are you a politician, for can't you just position your facts and not try to smear your 'opponent', funny I'm using the word opponent to someone who should be within the Body of Christ. See how far this has gone?

Show me where I've insulted you or tried to smear you, and I will try to make amends and earn your forgiveness. To me it simply looks like you won't engage the verses cited to you.

Apparently not you. But don't take offense, for I know you enjoy being the leader. I'm fine with your views and even your approach, for I'd been treated worse here for my faith. If and when my 'view' changes, it will be because my Lord and Savior will open my heart to that.... And for the record, that happened again today as I was studying. Nothing from you stated changed my mind, just the opposite, for I found more elements to God's sovereignty in scriptures even now. Praise God.

We all find God's sovereignty; but we also find man's responsibility.

"Do you think lightly of the riches of God's kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath..." Rm2:4-8

Where is the "predestined-salvation" in that? It does not fit, it cannot fit. Nor can men be called "wise" for believing or "unwise" for disbelieving, Matt7:24-27. All of Scripture only works with "Responsible Grace".

One day perhaps I'll understand the fierce devotion that Reformed Theology inspires in those who embrace it, in the face of refuting Scriptures. No offense meant to anyone.