Calvinism / pre-destination

[Gadgeteer]

Great, I agree, before I get to tea, let's try and set a foundation for before verse 5,

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I don't see anything here saying what I did, only what I have received.

Do you agree?

If not where does verse 1-4 say, 'it's what I did?'

You asked to discus 2 Pet 1, so I prepared this above, and I can't find your answer anywhere yet. Have I missed it?

Hi, "Tea"!

To make a case for "predestination", the principle of "God sovereignly gives to men before they believe or turn to Him", would have to be established. Let's discuss the passage, especially what you have hilighted.

•· To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God
Here he uses "a faith", as "a belief"; a gospel. Not that He gives us belief.

•· His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness
God's gifts can be voluntarily received, or rejected; this does not establish "one-sided-giving". (Also see "godliness" in 2:1:5-11.)

•· through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue
Is this necessarily "exclusive calling", that He called US but not the REST? No.


Let's discuss the same passage, but beyond what you considered. First, you quoted verse 4:
•· having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Let's pick out some key words:
1. Same faith/belief/gospel as us
2. apopheugo-escaped the corruption in the world
3. Through the epignosis-true-knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord
4. (verse 1) Our God and Savior Jesus

These people were saved, right? They escaped the corruption of the world through the true knowledge of the Lord (Kurios) and Savior (Soter) Jesus. Can't be denied. With me?

2Pet2:18 "(The false) seek to entice ...those who have barely¹/truly² escaped.
20) For if after having apopheugo-escaped the defilements of the world through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Kurios-Lord and Soter-Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse than the first.
21) It would have been better for them NOT to have epiginosko-truly-known the way of righteousness, than HAVING known it, to have epistrepho truly-spiritually-turned-away-from-it."

¹ King James translates from Textus Receptus, "ontos apopheugo", truly/clean escaped
² New American Standard translates from a more recognized Greek, "oligos apopheugo", barely escaped

In chapter 2, they:
1. apopheugo-escaped defilements
2. Through the epignosis-true-knowledge
3. of the Kurios-Lord and Soter-Savior Jesus

Exactly how can the exact same Greek words mean "saved" in chapter1, but "not-saved" in chapter 2? Further --- they KNEW the way of righteousness, a variant of epignosis; and they turned-away-from-it, "epistrepho" denoting a true spiritual turning.

How did these in chapter two not actually fall from salvation? How can their current "overcome" state be worse than before, if they were always unsaved? Is there one "unsaved" that is worse than another "unsaved"?

I really really appreciate allowing me to look through your eyes at these verses; I look forward with excitement to understanding how you perceive these. :-)

I fell we need to start somewhere solid, and you requested to look at 2 Pet, so if you're keen, let's get down to it?

I think the first "problem" (that is, difference between us), is in how we perceive 2Pet1:1; I like the New American Standard, which reads: "...who have received a faith the same kind as ours"... This does not teach "belief-to-salvation", but "a faith/belief/gospel".

God bless

And you!

Are you up around London much? I can't believe I missed the Ferris Wheel; I wanna go back badly. And I missed the Tower of London! There were not so many cameras when I was there. Does it ever bother you to be on 300+ cameras, with facial recognition software??? If the software ever messed up, it might be like the disaster I had when I tried to go to the zoo. I was fine until leaving --- a crowd of keepers descended on me, one shouting, "GET THE NET! ONE OF 'EM IS ESCAPING!!!"

[Gadgeteer]

I would introduce a different understanding for Reformed Theology than from yours, in that salvation is of the Lord...

Psalm 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
He is their strength in time of trouble.

You and I agree on this; that is, we agree on the words, we just understand them differently. In John1:13, the begottenness is all of God and nothing of us ("salvation is of the Lord"); but in verse 12, the right to become begotten children is given after belief (a gift that is "wholly of the Lord" still must be received by volitional faith). Make sense?

Jonah 2:9 But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving.
That which I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation is from the LORD."

Anyone who "practices sin" doesn't know the Lord as Savior, thus they are not backslidden, they are unsaved or at best saved by tongue only --- not by heart.

Agreed --- strongly. Well done.

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Do you accept the connection with Romans10:6-10, and Deuteronomy30:11-20? How is "the-word-of-faith" not put in EVERY person's heart --- both those who DO "confess/believe/be-saved", and those who "turn away disobey and perish"?

God gives faith; God tests for faith. Every man who comes to faith doesn't decide for Jesus, but believes...

Where is "God gives saving-faith" in Scripture? Where does "faith-to-salvation" come from in 2Tim3:15? From "studying Scripture" (which causes conviction to faith that saves), right? Why didn't those in John5:39-47, who also studied Scripture, believe?

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Which is cause and which is effect? Do we believe TO salvation? Or are those whom God selected for salvation, irresistible-believers? Can you support your answer with Scripture?

Paul and Silas didn't say to the jailer 'chose Jesus' when he asked what he should do... they stated 'believe'.

Acts 16:29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Thus...

Romans 10: 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Again --- they told him "You --- DO this (believe!)". Did he believe TO salvation, or was his belief an irresistible consequence of sovereign choice?

The misnomer is that Salvation is a decision or a choice... like do I chose sin or Jesus. Salvation is understanding. Divine Understandings.

If you and I regard "understanding", as parallel to "wisdom" (2Tim3:15), then why did ONE studier get understanding-to-salvation, but the OTHERS did not? (Jesus answers the "why" clearly, in John5:39-47; what did He say?)

[Gadgeteer]

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Does this or does this not teach "believing-through-foolishness"? Under "predestined-salvation" and "monergistic-regeneration", would not the sovereignly changed heart alter the message from "foolish" to "wisdom" so that the person THEN believes?

How does Paul write "through the foolishness ...those who believe"?

30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

How does this fit 2Tim3:15? Where does that wisdom come from? (I perceive it aligns with Rom10:17, "faith comes from hearing", or reading; but faith is resistible. Not everyone who reads, believes.)

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

What does Eph1:13 say? The seal of the Spirit comes after belief, doesn't it? Wouldn't it come before, under "predestination"?

James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

When one "asks God for wisdom", is he believing? One cannot ask, if he does not believe, can he?

There are three views of "Once Saved Always Saved":
1. Antinomianism/Gnosticism, active sin, saved spirit but corrupt flesh.
2. Eternal security; anyone can be saved, but once "in" you cannot leave.
3. Reformed Theology -- salvation is predestined, regeneration precedes belief; atonement is LIMITED (Jesus did not die for everyone!).

What is missing in your definition is sin... You cannot separate sin from salvation, The reformed position would declare all men are sinful.

I recognize that Reformed people do not like to be considered "OSAS"; nevertheless, it fits the idea of "once truly saved, a person cannot/will-not become unsaved". And yes I accept that all men are sinful. Yet, contrary to how Reformed views Rom3:10-12 (which is not Pauline writing anyway, it's a Davidic Lamentation --- an exaggeration --- copied from Psalm 14 and 53), I recognize that "sinners can do good" as Jesus said in Luke6:33.

Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "unregenerated men cannot believe", nor is the idea that "regeneration precedes belief".

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

And that no one seeks for God:

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

All right --- if this is a Scriptural absolute, and not a lamentation/exaggeration, then please tell me what Jesus was saying in Matt7?
"SEEK and you shall find. ...few are those who find-by-diligently-seeking (salvation)".

"Heurisko" really means "find-by-diligently-seeking", Matt7:14. It's similar to Heb11:6, God rewards those who diligently seek.

"Redeemed", a lamentation exaggerates. In Genesis6:5 men's thoughts and hearts were only evil continually. This is a lamentation, and does not oppose verses 8-9, "but ONE was RIGHTEOUS, and Noah found favor in God's eyes".

It's the same thing in Romans3; none (in general) seek, but if you're one of the few willing to seek, you will find.

"You will seek Me, and you will find Me, when you search with all your heart --- I will be found by you!" Jeremiah29:11-13.

[Gadgeteer]

That the Gospel of Salvation is to be preached to the whole world and is wide open and not closed:

Two things; first --- preach it why? Jude23 says "save others, snatching them from the fire"; do we affect who will believe? Scripture says "yes", Reformed theology says "no, it's all predestined long ago". We can affect positively (as you quoted), and we can DESTROY people who were saved, Rom14:15 & 1Cor8:11 & Matt23:13-15.

Mark 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

That all men love the dark:

John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Not all men; please re-read the previous verse, and now focus on verses 20-21 --- those WHO love evil hate the light and are afraid their evil deeds will be exposed; but those WHO love righteousness come to the light to show their deeds are wrought in God!

You cannot fit that into any scheme of "men-don't-make-a-choice".

12:46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

Everyone WHO believes. Please tell me your view on John7:17 --- what does "If anyone is willing to do His will" mean to you?

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Chosen before or after belief? "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt22:14); who did the king (God) choose?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

God's action looking backwards... Nowhere does the reform position declare that the Gospel picks and chooses who to present it to. The reformed position declares preach the gospel... For God uses man to preach the Gospel while God Himself tenderizes the heart for them to respond.... and we respond thinking nothing about any doctrines at the time.

Please consider this:
"Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God. For how shall they believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Neither of us can make that into anything but "we affect who believes" --- those who hear, are more likely to believe (pragmatism). To continue in "Reformed Theology", you would have to think that God conveniently did not predestine Aztecs/Incas/Indians/Eskimos/Aborignes/Bushmen before missionaries. Not any. No, missionaries affect who believe, and that does not fit "predestined-belief". See if you can contradict this.

And because salvation is of the Lord, it is the Lord who works within the man to walk in obedience according to His will.

In Heb5:9, does God respond TO obedience, or is obedience in response to God's sovereign salvation?

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

What's causal in this verse? Belief or disobedience? Show me how it could fit "belief or disobedience is the consequence of sovereign election".

True belief in Jesus is and walks obedience; for he who does not obey [believe] the Son will not see life.

May we discuss Deuteronomy30:11-17, and its connection to Romans10:6-10? How is "the-word-of-faith" not in everyone's heart, both those who DO confess/believe/be-saved, and those who turn-away/disbelieve/perish? Am I understanding these wrongly?

Which then comes to the famously debated passages against Reformed Theology:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So in this statement it is wide open, yet conditional to the whoever. So the reformed position would declare that where it's of God choosing or the Arminian it is of man's choosing, God's love for the world does not equate that He saves the entire world, only to those who believe... so by outcome it is the same.

It's not really "wide-upon" under Reformed Theology; RT proposes two calls --- a universal (but ineffective!) call to everyone, and an exclusive (but effective!) call to a few. Show me this principle in Scripture; can you?

The whole discussion is "cause and effect". You say God loves the world, but it only applies to those who believe --- 1Tim4:10 mirrors that perfectly; but who actually chooses the belief? You say "God", and I perceive Scripture says "men". Can you support your perception with Scripture?

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Very good. Now --- whom did the king choose, and who chose for themselves?

Balanced with Christian accountability and responsibilities:

The very definition of "responsible", dictionary definition, is "accountable for being CAUSE of something in one's power and control". That does not fit RT, not no way not no how.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Several things --- this verse plainly and clearly says "Make your ELECTION bebaios-firm/steadfast", and "stumble" is "ptaio-become-wretched".

How is loss-of-salvation not blatantly in view in 2Pet1:5-11? The bad-example in verse 9, against whom we "therefore make our calling and election steadfast, ...that the gates of God's kingdom BE (abundantly) provided" --- how is that bad example not truly fallen from salvation?

To me "abundant" is paranthetical; there are those who say "well if we have the fruits the entrance is ABUNDANT, if we do not have the fruits the entrance is still there but it's SPARSE".

And I say: "Really? He who lacks the fruits, is impure/ungodly/immoral/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind --- in other words wicked. What kind of an entrance is there into Heaven for the wicked???"

Haven't gotten a good answer to that one...

[tea]

Hi again

•· To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God
Here he uses "a faith", as "a belief"; a gospel. Not that He gives us belief.

To me it's more simple, if I have obtained something, it was not about me going to get it, so I can't see your point here.

•· His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness
God's gifts can be voluntarily received, or rejected; this does not establish "one-sided-giving". (Also see "godliness" in 2:1:5-11.)

'His divine power has given us...' is good enough for me, I accept that I have recieved what He has given me, and it is NOT of my own doing.

•· through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue
Is this necessarily "exclusive calling", that He called US but not the REST? No.

To me the calling is exclusive to who ever He chooses, and I will only know the fullness of this calling when face to face in ultra glory.

Are you up around London much? I can't believe I missed the Ferris Wheel; I wanna go back badly. And I missed the Tower of London! There were not so many cameras when I was there. Does it ever bother you to be on 300+ cameras, with facial recognition software??? If the software ever messed up, it might be like the disaster I had when I tried to go to the zoo. I was fine until leaving --- a crowd of keepers descended on me, one shouting, "GET THE NET! ONE OF 'EM IS ESCAPING!!!"

I stay as far away from London, as I do from coffee, ha ha!

The camera thing is crazy!

It's fine to see it in a different way, and it does not make you any less of a brother if you see the election/calling thing differently to me.We've have made some ground, and I thank you for all your effort here.

I feel it's better that I remain silent for a while. Keep growing in the faith and love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless

[Gadgeteer]

Hi again

To me it's more simple, if I have obtained something, it was not about me going to get it, so I can't see your point here.

Yesterday I obtained gas for my car. Did I have to go get it, or did it just come to me? I was tempted to just send the car over by himself. But the last time I did, he blew fifty bucks on PREMIUM. And he didn't come home for hours --- seems he developed a major crush on a cute little Chevy...

'His divine power has given us...' is good enough for me, I accept that I have received what He has given me, and it is NOT of my own doing.

Who decided the "receiving"? In Romans5:17-19, does justification come to the same amount of people to whom condemnation comes? Verse 17 says "those who receive" --- what did he mean?

To me the calling is exclusive to whomever He chooses, and I will only know the fullness of this calling when face to face in ultra glory.

I have never found "exclusive calling" in Scripture. I like how Jesus 'splained it in Matt22; everyone-in-view ("as many as you find") were invited, each chose for himself whether or not to come.

I stay as far away from London, as I do from coffee, ha ha!

I had quite a prayer session when I ended up on the wrong side of the Thames (how do you pronounce that, anyway?). A seedy part of town, lots of warehouses, no people. Then a car drove by slowly.
...and stopped just ahead of me...
I was praying and praising God, they ignored me, and I crossed the next bridge back into the "tourist section".

The language, however, was difficult. "Petrol", "bin", "iron-monger's", "chemist", "lift", "que-up", "bonnet" and "boot" and "torch" and "lorry" and so on. Never figured out what "ointment" was called (can you tell me?).

The camera thing is crazy!

It's fine to see it in a different way, and it does not make you any less of a brother if you see the election/calling thing differently to me. We've have made some ground, and I thank you for all your effort here.

Agreed; and for yours!

I feel it's better that I remain silent for a while. Keep growing in the faith and love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As you wish. I was wonderin' if you had looked at the posts I just made to "Redeemed". :-)

God bless

And you. You know, your intelligence and kindness, and allowing me to see through your eyes, IS a blessing to me.

:-)

[percho]

I did an internet search, and found a pdf page talking about eight covenants.

Here is a timeline --- I didn't study it in detail, but it has covenants on it...

I will never understand the use of PDF format; it's complicated, slow, and overloaded. You can't copy text to the clipboard, and searching is weird.



Looks like from Moses to Christ is about 1400 years...

That may help me in something else I have been studying. Thanks.

However Galatians 3:24 says the law was our schoolmaster from V23 that means we were under the law.
Also verse 23 says we were under this schoolmaster the law, before the faith came.
Verse 25 says that after the faith came we are no longer under the schoolmaster the law.

Now in Romans 6:14,15 we find we are no longer under the law but under grace. Now it appears we have two things talked about here. The faith that came at a precise moment in time. And grace which we are now under because of the coming of the faith, and removing us from being under the schoolmaster the law.

Eph. 2:8 says Salvation came about by grace through the faith. It appears to me that in that statement the faith would have to precede grace being it was by grace through the faith.

I keep putting the definite article the preceding faith for I believe it is there in the Greek.

What ever took place when we were removed from under the law and put under grace is when grace because of the faith took place.

Would that not have been the time span of, from the dying of Jesus the Christ (the faith) until the resurrection to life of Jesus the Christ (by the grace of God the Father)? Three days and three nights.

Before the faith came and after the faith did come grace was applied and we went from being under the law to being under grace?

The faith that was revealed in verse was 23 was the death of Jesus as the Christ by his resurrection by the Father. Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[tea]

Yesterday I obtained gas for my car. Did I have to go get it, or did it just come to me? I was tempted to just send the car over by himself. But the last time I did, he blew fifty bucks on PREMIUM. And he didn't come home for hours --- seems he developed a major crush on a cute little Chevy...
As you wish. I was wonderin' if you had looked at the posts I just made to "Redeemed". :-)
And you. You know, your intelligence and kindness, and allowing me to see through your eyes, IS a blessing to me.

:-)

Sorry to be brief, it's SO late here. No, haven't looked at your posts to Redeemed yet.
Just a quick one. I don't compare myself to a car, and I can't even try and compare God choosing me, to me choosing a car.
I don't have time to look at the rest. Thanks for your kind words. Keep warm and blessed.
Good night.

[Noeb]

feature=player_embedded&

From the Greek Lexicon:

physis:
the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

Guess I was wrong about your knowledge of Greek. I do not disagree that before we are born again we have a nature to sin. However we are not born with it. When we are born we are as Adam and Eve when they were created.

Phusis (Strong G5449) is from Phuo which is growth or expansion (Strong G5453). Strong points this out as well. Just so no one thinks I'm completely crazy there are commentaries that touch on this. The JFB says
"“Nature,” in Greek, implies that which has grown in us as the peculiarity of our being, growing with our growth, and strengthening with our strength, as distinguished from
that which has been wrought on us by mere external influences:"

The JFB is self explanitory. Nature is more than what we are born with. This can be seen in other verses such as in Romans.

Barnes says
"They did not by nature inherit holiness; they inherited that which would subject; them to wrath. The meaning has been well expressed by Doddridge, who refers it "to
the original apostasy and corruption, in consequence of which people do, according to the course of nature, fall early into personal guilt, and so become obnoxious to
the divine displeasure." Many modern expositors have supposed that this has no reference to any original tendency of our fallen nature to sin, or to native corruption,
but that it refers to the "habit" of sin, or to the fact of their having been the slaves of appetite and passion. I admit that the direct and immediate sense of the passage is
that they were, when without the gospel, and before they were renewed, the children of wrath; but still the fair interpretation is, that they were born to that state, and
that that condition was the regular result of their native depravity; and I do not know a more strong or positive declaration that can be made to show that people are by
nature destitute of holiness, and exposed to perdition."

Notice they inherited that which would subject them and expose them to.....Adam and Eve were also subjected and exposed to....
Fact: imputed sin is contrary to scripture.
Fact: there's not one verse that says Adam and Eve changed or were changed, and not one verse that indicates their descendants are any different than they were in nature.
So being born innocent as Adam and Eve were innocent, this sin nature is really just a nature. If it were a sin nature we would not be innocent and it would be God's fault we sin. It's not. Then why do we sin? Follow your ouwn reasoning from the next question......

I asked a very simple question. You tried twice to answer and have been unable to. I asked
"what did they (Adam and Eve) have in their 'nature' that we do not?"
You said
"They had fellowship with God."
Fellowship is not part of a nature, neither can it be. It does answer the question, why do we sin and continually grow in sin, though. Fellowship is what changed. Fellowship is the difference between us and Adam and Eve. Nothing more and nothing less. It answers all questions on the topic. It leaves nothing hidden and reveals all. With this simple answer, there's no need to make stuff up, twist scripture, say we just can't know for sure, or throw up your hands and say, all I have is "by nature we were children of wrath".

The substance of salvation is Christ-in-you, and indwelt by the Spirit. At the Day of Pentecost the Spirit was poured out to the world; with the Spirit comes regeneration.

I still don't know how you are connecting this with originally using John 15:5 to establish total inability.

The idea of "two natures" is expressly what Paul taught in Romans6-8. In chapter 6 is the idea of becoming "united/buried/immersed/crucified/died", joining in Jesus' death -- the old man/sin-nature dies. As Jesus was raised from the dead, so too shall we walk in newness of life --- the new nature has come. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation; the old has passed (is passing) away, all has become new (new things have come)". 2Cor5:17.

BUT -- in Romans7 there is now a WAR between the old dead but not gone nature, and the new nature; Paul tries to do good, but does the very wrong he does not want to do. In despair he cries out, "Who will free me from this war in my members?"

And chapter 8 is the solution --- walk not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, using the Spirit's power to overcome the flesh. Key here is constant choice --- if we continue after the flesh we must die; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we will live. Rom8:12-14.

And that fits perfectly with Eph4:22-24, we are to (constantly!) lay aside the old man (the old sin nature!) and put on the new man, be renewed in the spirit of our minds (walk in regeneration!).

Paul taught a struggle between flesh and spirit in one nature, not two. When we say, nature teaches us that...., we speak of all of nature in general in it's entirety. That is how the word is and has always been used. Only the church is an exception. An exhaustive study of the word and it's usage is very edifying.

Not at all.

Sure it is. Some realize scripture says, to he that overcomes. Reward based on works. That we are to strive to enter the straight gate. If it is not us but Christ in us doing these things then all this and much more would not be true.

No, that is the point; the Old Covenant was not "salvation through Law", it was obedience through faith. Their righteousness was not apart from God!

"Abraham believed, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness"! Rom4:3!

Now, Jesus came not to destroy Law but to fulfill it; it's the same obedience and faith today --- and we're warned not to imitate their disobedience and unbelief, so as to FALL and fail to enter God's rest! Heb4:11!!!

That's my point! Righteous before Christ. Righteous because of what they decided to believe and do.

[Noeb]

Just a little expansion. If right now you said, nature teaches us, you would be talking about a 100 year old tree in your back yard (for example). When that tree was just a seed it was not a tree. It was a tree seed. That seed contained everything necessary to grow into a tree, but it was not a tree. You wouldn't and couldn't hold the seed in your hand and say, look at the tree. Through this growth process you could learn a lot. What could you learn by looking at a seed in your hand? Nothing.

[tea]

I do not disagree that before we are born again we have a nature to sin. However we are not born with it. When we are born we are as Adam and Eve when they were created.

If you believe 'that before we are born again we have a nature to sin.' Then when did that sin nature arrive?

disagree with this;'When we are born we are as Adam and Eve when they were created.' I think there 's a verse in Romans that teaches about us being born into sin.

[Noeb]

Yes, it does. There are only two real-estates in the Universe --- in Christ, and in sin. Those who are not with Christ are against Him; we walk either in Him, or in sin and death.

There are three views of "Once Saved Always Saved":
1. Antinomianism/Gnosticism, active sin, saved spirit but corrupt flesh.
2. Eternal security; anyone can be saved, but once "in" you cannot leave.
3. Reformed Theology -- salvation is predestined, regeneration precedes belief; atonement is LIMITED (Jesus did not die for everyone!).

#2 and #3 often say "backslidden-but-saved", and that is not true. He who practices sin is of the devil and not of God, 1Jn3:5-10. He will not inherit, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21. We do make a choice to obey God, but it's His power by which we overcome sin. HE is the overcomer, and overcomes in and through us. James says "draw near to God and God will draw near to you"; the closer we are to Him, the more His heart is ours, and the farther we are from sin...

How are you relating this to whether or not we are a corpse spiritually?

[tea]

Hi Gad

I trust you rested well!
You spoke of Jesus choosing the 12 including the son of perdition. I was wondering if you thought about;'John 17:12
King James Version
'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept , and none of them is lost , but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled .'

Could Jesus have choosen for the very purpose;'...that the scripture might be fulfilled .' ?

[Noeb]

If you believe 'that before we are born again we have a nature to sin.' Then when did that sin nature arrive?

See the post above yours. The seed must die, gerninate, and begin the process. The potential to be a tree is in the seed, but the seed is not a tree.

disagree with this;'When we are born we are as Adam and Eve when they were created.' I think there 's a verse in Romans that teaches about us being born into sin.

All are born into this world out of feollowship with God, yes.

[tea]

first --- preach it why?

I say because God said so.

Jude23 says "save others, snatching them from the fire"; do we affect who will believe?

I believe this verse does not literally mean we can save people.

Do you believe someone can stand before God and say,'I should be in heaven because Gad saved me'?