Calvinism / pre-destination

[John146]

If I seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide as I do my part, then He is glorified and I am blessed...

Do you willfully choose to "seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide" or does God somehow make sure you do that (trying not to use the word "force" here)?

[John146]

The test is for our benefit, proofing to us the metal of our faith to us....


James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;


Quite biblically obvious, really.

This did not answer my question. Those passages could be used to answer the question as to why God would test our own faith, not why He would test faith that He gave to us. Those passages are all speaking of people's own faith, not faith that was given to them by God. If God gives the faith then there is no need for it to be tested. If something cannot possibly fail then what is the point of testing it? That makes no sense.

Take Heb 11:17, for example. That is not speaking of faith that God gave to Abraham, that is speaking of Abraham's own faith. Why would Abraham be commended for his faith, as Paul did in Romans 4, if it was given to Him by God? He shouldn't be commended at all for his faith if it was given to him by God, should he? I would think only God should be commended for Abraham's faith if He is the One who gave it to him.

[keyzer soze]

Question for Gadgeteer and John146, what happened to the children who would have been killed by this command given by God in Deut 20?

16 Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you,

Please explain why God would do this and where you believe the souls of the children would spend eternity and why.

John146, I see that you are on, any chance you could answer this?

[Diggindeeper]

Keyzer, have you ever studied in depth about all those "Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites," and all the other 'ites'? Have you any idea how ungodly, pagan, heathenistic and anti they were to God and his chosen people?

They were pretty much the same as the people before the flood! Evil people who constantly fought against the chosen people. God had reasons for destroying the people BEFORE the flood, and he had reasons for his commands in Genesis chapter 20. Good reasons.

God is good. I don't doubt that at all. But God is also just. And Holy.

[keyzer soze]

Keyzer, have you ever studied in depth about all those "Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites," and all the other 'ites'? Have you any idea how ungodly, pagan, heathenistic and anti they were to God and his chosen people?

They were pretty much the same as the people before the flood! Evil people who constantly fought against the chosen people. God had reasons for destroying the people BEFORE the flood, and he had reasons for his commands in Genesis chapter 20. Good reasons.

God is good. I don't doubt that at all. But God is also just. And Holy.

DigginDeeper, are you suggesting that if these children grew up they would have 0% chance of repenting so God is having mercy here? My question is what happens to the children that are destroyed?

[Diggindeeper]

DigginDeeper, are you suggesting that if these children grew up they would have 0% chance of repenting so God is having mercy here? My question is what happens to the children that are destroyed?

I actually believe, since God is all knowing, he knows ahead of time exactly how each one of us will choose as far as good or evil, to live in darkness or in the light. I just really believe that. He sees into the future. We can't do that.

Do you really think that, for example, back in the days of Noah, that one of those children would have grown up to love and serve God? I don't. They had no one...not one person, not one relative or anyone...who would have taught them to live righteously.

Or, we just don't know. Who knows? Perhaps after the resurrection of the just and the unjust they will get another chance to be taught nothing but righteousness. We can't say what happens to the children, can we? Not a one of us is that intelligent to be able to answer such a question!

[tea]

This did not answer my question. Those passages could be used to answer the question as to why God would test our own faith, not why He would test faith that He gave to us.

I believe once God gives us faith, this faith becomes our, just like salvation. Before I was regenerated, salvation was NOT mine, but once regenerated, salvation.
This is answer to Heb 11 too.

[tea]

Do you willfully choose to "seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide" or does God somehow make sure you do that (trying not to use the word "force" here)?

In 2 Pet we see there are two sides to our responsibility ONCE we have recieved faith.

[tea]

Hi again!
Romans connects, in that Paul says "it's the SAME word of faith that we are (now!) preaching!" And this connects to Acts17:26-31, where he says "though it's not far from any of us".

Yes, I see what you are saying, and on this we agree! I think ? That Rom and Deut was written to those who already had recieved faith.

Thus the word of faith is proclaimed to the believing, and both communities are commanded to share their faith with those on the 'outside'.

Are we in agreement here?

Faith is NEVER far from anyone, we just don't know whom He has chosen to recieve it?
You may prefer to say we just don't know whom will choose it, either way, our responsibility is to SHARE it!

All milk comes from machines man, come on, which society are you living in?

[tea]

Gad,
I can't see your point here?
Deut 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'

Is this not talking about the commandment of God, it was near to them, in Rom 10, the word is Christ is near to them,
What is your issue with this portion?

Poor folk, some haven't even tasted biscuits!

[Redeemed by Grace]

This did not answer my question. Those passages could be used to answer the question as to why God would test our own faith, not why He would test faith that He gave to us. Those passages are all speaking of people's own faith, not faith that was given to them by God. If God gives the faith then there is no need for it to be tested. If something cannot possibly fail then what is the point of testing it? That makes no sense.

Take Heb 11:17, for example. That is not speaking of faith that God gave to Abraham, that is speaking of Abraham's own faith. Why would Abraham be commended for his faith, as Paul did in Romans 4, if it was given to Him by God? He shouldn't be commended at all for his faith if it was given to him by God, should he? I would think only God should be commended for Abraham's faith if He is the One who gave it to him.

I'm sorry... I thought I did.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Do you willfully choose to "seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide" or does God somehow make sure you do that (trying not to use the word "force" here)?

I can see your dilemma, how can two seemingly opposite things not only coexist, but are in harmony with each other.

[Noeb]

Yes, in a sense you're correct, but you do agree that we inherited a sinful nature from Adam do you not? Now I don't believe anyone goes to Hell for Adam's sin, we only go to Hell for our own sins and for rejecting Christ. Yet we inherited a propensity to sin that only Christ can break. We could start there in our search for an accurate soteriology.

That's either context or it's not. If you follow the quote links back a few post, I explain what I believe and why. We have the same nature when we are born as Adam when he was created. If you have any scripture that says we don't please share. If Adam didn't have the same ability to sin as we do why the warning not to eat and how did he? Adam was in fellowship and if he wanted to obey he could have. That's why it was so bad and why we are warned not to continue in sin after we are in fellowship and free. Like Adam could have obeyed, we can after fellowship is restored but not before. Not when we are born. The change in fellowship didn't immediately change man to have a nature to sin. It takes time for a seed become a tree then to grow into a sick tree that produces bad fruit.

[John146]

John146, I see that you are on, any chance you could answer this?

Ha. Based on the time of your post that is about the time I signed off yesterday so you just missed me. My answer is that I'm not sure and I can only speculate on those things, which I would rather not do. If I can't find the answers to things like that in scripture then I just leave it to God. I know that God is just and always does what is right, so He had a good reason for destroying them and He will judge them justly. That's enough for me.

[John146]

I can see your dilemma, how can two seemingly opposite things not only coexist, but are in harmony with each other.

I have no dilemma. I asked you a question which you did not answer for some reason. So, I'll ask it again. Do you willfully choose to "seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide" or does God somehow make sure you do that?