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Thread: Calvinism / pre-destination

  1. #856

    Re: Sincerely, how much credit do you take for your salvation, 50%?

    Quote Originally Posted by svfox View Post
    After years and years it is more muddy than ever. Like trying to understand the trinity.
    Hi, "Silver"! Not when you look at the whole, and realize contextual refutations of Calvinistic understandings.

    Recognize that Calvinism founds on four passages --- Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom9:11-23, and Rom8:29-35. There are about 35 "secondary passages", like Mark4:11-12. Luke8:13-15. John6:37, 39, 44 and 65; Jn10:26-28. Acts13:48. Rom3:10-12. 1Cor2:14. 2Cor4:3-4. 2Tim2:25. Heb12:2. 1Jn5:1. Ezk36:26-27. Prov16:4. Jer13:23, 17:9. Every one of those (and the others not listed!) can be answered provably NOT in support of Calvinism, usually by direct context. The "primaries" are not as easily answered in Calvinist's minds, but "predestined-salvation" cannot fit many other passages -- such as all those that speak of really falling from salvation. Citations on request!
    I know God says He will sprinkle clean water over you.
    God does all the work lest any man boast he did something.
    Right --- please connect this with John6:25-29. Verse 29 says believing is GOD'S work, but in context it is His work that we choose to work. "We work the work of God, by believing".
    We are dead in our sin and born that way so how can a dead person in sin seek God. You dead in sin.
    There is a clear and indisputable answer to this --- are you ready?

    First, God reveals Himself to all men, through what He has made. Rom1:19-20. Second, God determines men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might find Him, though He's not far from anyone, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts17:26-31. Third --- Deuteronomy30:11-20 connects with Acts17, and connects directly with Romans10:6-10; clearly asserted is that the word-of-faith (the message of Jesus, the SAME word of faith that Paul was preaching, Rm10:8!) --- is in everyone's heart and mouth, each can either confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish; each makes the choice of eternal life, by loving God and by obeying Him and by holding fast to Him.

    So it's GOD who overcomes everyone's "total inability", and dead men are drawn to Jesus (Jn12:32) so that they can believe. Note "WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us ...by grace THROUGH FAITH" (Eph2:3-8) --- saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead!

    It's also 1Cor1:21 where God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message (it is "conviction" that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom").

    The concept of "our seeking God" is very clear in Matthew7:14 ("heurisko" means "find by seeking", fitting verse 7 "seek and you shall find"). It's in Heb11:6, and Acts17:26-31.
    That is why we share the living word with them, the bible. Once they get even the smallest amount of the word of God they can turn to God and seek him.
    Amen!
    That is why I think it's of utmost importance to share the bible with people, the more humbly and Jesus-like you do it the better chance of bringing people to Christ.
    You are SO right. I've said to people that "though I don't smoke, drink, sleep-around, steal, murder, I'm no better than anyone; I deserve Hell the same as anyone else." It blows them away. A couple of male witches looked at me and said, "You're the first Christian we've met that's not been spouting Hell-fire and brimstone at us!"

    ....and I said, "Then I'm the first REAL Christian you've met!"
    Until you bring someone under the word of God they will remain dead.
    I think we're mostly in agreement; but Scripture says (as we just studied!) that He makes the word-of-faith real in every person.
    In the old testament times God did many things on his own but now he uses the Church.
    We can tell people pray and pray and ask over and over. God even says to do this. A lot of people want this world and Jesus and you can't have both.
    So they aren't seeking with all their heart.
    Ironically, often when we pray for others, we're really praying for OURSELVES: "God, change ME, into whatever You need to reach them!"
    Once we have the Holy Spirit we can spread the seeds around. Some fall on good ground and some on rocky. Some seeds get eaten by the birds.
    It is the Holy Spirits business who gets saved and who doesn't.
    No, it's ours --- please read Luke8:13-15, Jesus' story about "rocky soil and good soil". Calvinists think that God makes soil "rocky" or "good", and therefore they either persevere or fall. Not what Jesus was teaching. Connect that passage with Hebrews6:11-12 --- one tilled soil can produce either good fruit (and be blessed), or thorns (and be cursed). So the label reflects how the people persevered, or not; if they "hold fast and bear fruit with perseverance", then they are called "good soil". But if they fall to temptation (affliction & persecution Mk4:17), then they are called "rocky/bad soil".
    Repenting equals seeking the lord with all your heart. We get enough grace for each day from God. God supplies us with Grace and we should use it to repent and stay on the right path.
    Amen. But recognize it's His power, though our faith. It's always by the Spirit that we guard the treasure of eternal life, see 2Tim1:12-14.
    I am sure we can effect God's actions through prayers. I am sure if we claim any credit toward our salvation we are asking for judgment on us, very bad.
    Worse, we are not receiving Jesus. His work on the Cross was sufficient, and complete.
    God gave the example of the old man picking up a stick on the sabbath. Moses asked God what they should do and God said stone him.
    This sounds so evil. God is definitely showing us that we are not to claim credit for any work we did are we risk his wrath.
    God is ultimate good, His kindness leads to repentance; He is love, and there is no fear in love. 1Jn4:16-20.

    The "fear" spoken of in Acts10:34-35 is reverence, not terror.

    The reality of this thing we call "Christianity", is an indwelt fellowship of love (Gal2:20, 1Jn1:1-3). It is a marriage -- He is the groom, we are the bride.

    You and I are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of God; to fellowship with Him, to exult in His glory, to love and worship Him and to celebrate Him; as He loves and enjoys US!

    Very good post!!!

    :-)
    Last edited by Gadgeteer; Apr 4th 2012 at 02:42 AM.

  2. #857
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Why wouldn't you be able to do that? Take precise points that define our differing views --- you perceive "born-again" before "belief" (or simultaneous). You read Eph2 and perceive that dead men must be made alive, because dead men cannot believe. Do you have any verses that support that? I've tried to discuss ones often used by Calvinists, like 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, and Ezk36:26-27; I've cited clear verses that ruin the "life-before-belief" perception of each of those.

    You just don't hear what I've been saying... and it's not you fault... you just can't help yourself... And I've never claimed to be a Calvinist, reformed, yes, Calvinist no... but your mission is discrediting Calvinism - so you pursue it. You hunt for it, you enjoy it, you crave it.

    If you are saved, you came to faith in/by seeking God and you called it your own will. It's reminiscent to me that Pilate also declared to Jesus that did He not know that he - Pilate, has the authority to release Jesus or crucify Him... and Jesus told him, what, I give you that authority... shocking Pilate to understand that even in his own life, God was in control.

    The truth can't limit God's sovereignty to a reaction to man's will. If one is saved, he is saved in God's plan before he was born, before the world was formed, for as a master builder draws a blueprint, orders materials, digs a hole, so too does God plan all things. There is nothing you can say or do, or think or even write that God does not only know but allows. But alas, your mission is not to show that salvation is fellowship with God and with believers, your mission is to wage war with anything contrary to your doctrinal ideals, that man cannot be 'chosen' before a man 'decided', and that the indwelling of His Spirit cannot touch the heart before the Gospel is heard, or that all who will believe is not only known by God but purposed by God before hand.

    As to 1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4: 3,4 are good verses for a christian to understand; Ezekiel 36:26,27 are yet future towards the nation Israel, but you disagree.


    And as I read further, your are being repetitious from before and offer nothing new, so I still see you misunderstanding that the instruction God gives is also instruction that God opens hearts to hear and follow.


    Let me ask you this... Does God control your heart? How about influencing your heart? And has He ever changed your heart? I'm betting on a no to all three. [I don't bet per se, but this is my hunch].
    Last edited by Redeemed by Grace; Apr 3rd 2012 at 02:29 PM.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  3. #858
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    You just don't hear what I've been saying... and it's not you fault... you just can't help yourself... And I've never claimed to be a Calvinist, reformed, yes, Calvinist no...
    What's the difference between Calvinism and reformed? How do their beliefs differ?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  4. #859
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    The truth can't limit God's sovereignty to a reaction to man's will.
    That statement is a misnomer. Truth doesn't limit God's sovereignty. In His sovereignty, God decided he would react to man's will. That in now way means God isn't in complete control of the situation. Jer. 18 says it this way...

    Jer 18:6-10
    6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
    NASU

    God says that he will speak, man will react, and then God will move based on that reaction. Scripture is full of such examples. God doesn't relinquish his sovereignty in any of them.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  5. #860
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    What's the difference between Calvinism and reformed? How do their beliefs differ?
    I couldn't be the one to tell you... for I know very little regarding John Calvin, but what I have been reading of late, seems to have been a well versed man with the word.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  6. #861
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    That statement is a misnomer. Truth doesn't limit God's sovereignty. In His sovereignty, God decided he would react to man's will. That in now way means God isn't in complete control of the situation. Jer. 18 says it this way...

    Jer 18:6-10
    6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
    NASU

    God says that he will speak, man will react, and then God will move based on that reaction. Scripture is full of such examples. God doesn't relinquish his sovereignty in any of them.
    So in practice, you believe that God waited for you to become born again first before He interacts with you?
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  7. #862
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    First, God reveals Himself to all men, through what He has made. Rom1:19-20.
    No man would have an excuse, so would agree with your interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    Second, God determines men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might find Him, though He's not far from anyone, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts17:26-31.
    As Paul is so good at, he builds a common basis to start from. So reaching to those who don’t know the true God, but know that there is something bigger than their groping for in a god of their own understandings. Thus, the OPEN gospel presentation! Paul educates and then declares Christ to them.

    Then what happened: Some sneered, some joined Paul and believed… To those who believed what Paul was declaring....

    Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    Third --- Deuteronomy30:11-20 connects with Acts17, and connects directly with Romans10:6-10; clearly asserted is that the word-of-faith (the message of Jesus, the SAME word of faith that Paul was preaching, Rm10:8!) --- is in everyone's heart and mouth, each can either confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish; each makes the choice of eternal life, by loving God and by obeying Him and by holding fast to Him.
    I would disagree with your hermeneutic connection of Deuteronomy 30 with Acts 17, for Deuteronomy is towards the Jews [the blessing and the curse] and Acts 17 is towards heathens. You falsely build a case that declares that Jesus is on every man’s heart, and they can either chose to believe and be saved or can turn away and perish…. How can man - who is born sinful, who loves darkness, who loves self and who doesn’t seek after God, and is naturally judged, have the ability to make a ‘choice’ for God? God tells us that no one seeks after Him, no one does what God requires, and no one understands. Your case assumes that all men have Jesus within their heart and mouth, yet God does not hear the prayers of the sinner, lest one, that of repentance and faith…

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    So it's GOD who overcomes everyone's "total inability", and dead men are drawn to Jesus (Jn12:32) so that they can believe. Note "WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us ...by grace THROUGH FAITH" (Eph2:3-8) --- saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead!
    Again, your misapplying John 12:32 to mean that everyone is given ability to believe. If you read closer and in context, Jesus was referring to His death and the kind of death he would die. With few exception, most folks who know the name of Jesus also know that Jesus was crucified on the cross… If Jesus were killed by a spear, many would not remember, nor even know who this Jesus was… But when Jesus was lifted up on the cross, the entire world will know who He is and how He died, if not as their Savior, but by history who He is. That’s what this verse means. So they were not given the ability to believe, but the vision to see Jesus for who He is.

    Then - Ephesians 2: 3-8… Oh no, not again. OK… One more time, and from John MacArthur commentary instead of my words: “faith; and that not of yourselves. “That refers to the entire previous statement of salvation, not only the grace but the faith. Although men are required to believe for salvation, even that faith is part of the gift of God which saves and cannot be exercised by one’s own power. God’s grace is preeminent in every aspect of salvation.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    It's also 1Cor1:21 where God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message (it is "conviction" that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom").
    More misunderstandings… Conviction? Where does that come from? I’ll tell you…

    1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgetman
    The concept of "our seeking God" is very clear in John7:14 ("heurisko" means "find by seeking", fitting verse 7 "seek and you shall find"). It's in Heb11:6, and Acts17:26-31.
    John 7:14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.

    Don’t see that at all within John 7:14
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  8. #863

    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    So in practice, you believe that God waited for you to become born again first before He interacts with you?
    "God is patient toward you, not decreeing (boulemai) any to perish, but (patiently waiting) for all to come to repentance." 2Pet3:9

    What kind of doctrine is it that places "born-again", before belief? That would make belief ineffective, and reduce the Cross to "pageantry". Everyone who holds to Calvinism or Reformed-Theology (which are two names for the same position), admits that "born-again" is simultaneous with "have-life/made-alive". That is, no one is born again without also being made alive, nor does anyone have life without also being born again.

    ...and "having life", comes solidly after belief. John20:31, Jn5:40, etcetera.
    You just don't hear what I've been saying... and it's not your fault... you just can't help yourself... And I've never claimed to be a Calvinist, reformed, yes, Calvinist no... but your mission is discrediting Calvinism - so you pursue it. You hunt for it, you enjoy it, you crave it.
    I discredit any view that is not Scriptural. "Reformed Theology", "Eternal Security", "Pre-Trib-Rapture", "Universalism", "Modalism", whatever.
    If you are saved, you came to faith in/by seeking God and you called it your own will. It's reminiscent to me that Pilate also declared to Jesus that did He not know that he - Pilate, has the authority to release Jesus or crucify Him... and Jesus told him, what, I give you that authority... shocking Pilate to understand that even in his own life, God was in control.
    When you see the word "sovereignty", you perceive that God decides --- it does not occur to you that God deciding who will love Him back violates the essence of "love", nor that in His sovereignty He could bring everyone to the place where they could believe in Him or turn away towards sin.
    The truth can't limit God's sovereignty to a reaction to man's will.
    God is reactive in Hebrews11:6. In Hebrews5:9. In Acts10:34-35. In Romans3:26.
    If one is saved, he is saved in God's plan before he was born, before the world was formed, for as a master builder draws a blueprint, orders materials, digs a hole, so too does God plan all things.
    Right --- so the Cross is pageantry, Jesus dying on the Cross affected no one, only fulfilled what God already decided long ago. His Judgment is fraudulent, because GOD determined man's belief/obedience AND sin. God is the greatest hypocrite, because when Jesus said "repent and believe" (Mk1:15) He knew that it was really GOD who decided men's repentance and belief.

    Why don't you have a problem with that?
    There is nothing you can say or do, or think or even write that God does not only know but allows.
    Wait --- God allows? What happened to His sovereignty?

    How can God permit anything, in His sovereignty?
    But alas, your mission is not to show that salvation is fellowship with God and with believers, your mission is to wage war with anything contrary to your doctrinal ideals,
    (...which no one has shown are "MY ideals", rather than sound exegesis of Scripture...)
    that man cannot be 'chosen' before a man 'decided',
    "Chosen THROUGH belief" --- 2Thess2:13.
    and that the indwelling of His Spirit cannot touch the heart before the Gospel is heard,
    Wow --- indwelling Spirit before belief! Nowhere in Scripture, RBG.
    or that all who will believe is not only known by God but purposed by God before hand.
    And those who were known by God in Gal4:9, can become "severed from Christ and fallen from grace" in Gal5:4.
    As to 1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4: 3,4 are good verses for a christian to understand;
    In what respect? They do not assert that "unregenerated men cannot believe and be saved".
    Ezekiel 36:26,27 are yet future towards the nation Israel, but you disagree.
    No, I disagree with many who think it promotes "heart-change-before-belief".
    And as I read further, you are being repetitious from before and offer nothing new, so I still see you misunderstanding that the instruction God gives is also instruction that God opens hearts to hear and follow.
    I do tend to be repetitious; I keep trying to get people to engage Scriptures.

    ;-)

  9. #864
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    I wish I could also help you see that salvation is all about and from God...
    Can you tell me why John 3:16 doesn't read as follows:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that to whosoever He gives faith in His Son should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Can you tell me why scripture repeatedly speaks of faith as something a person must do if it's actually God doing it instead? Why did Paul and Silas tell the jailer that there was something he needed to do when he asked them what he needed to do to be saved?

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Why didn't they instead say "There is nothing you can do but wait and see if God gives you faith in the Lord Jesus Christ so that you will be saved as a result."?

  10. #865
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    No man would have an excuse, so would agree with your interpretation.
    If no man has an excuse for not being thankful and glorifying God as God (as talked about in Romans 1:18-20) then why are many people not thankful and why do many of them not glorify God? If they don't have an excuse for not doing so that means they were capable of doing it but chose not to, right? Why would that not be the same in regards to believing in the gospel of Christ? What excuse does anyone have for not believing in Christ?

  11. #866
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    So in practice, you believe that God waited for you to become born again first before He interacts with you?
    Did God wait in Jeremiah 18 God before speaking to man? Or did it indicate he spoke first, then waited for a decision? God moves first. Not man.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  12. #867
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    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    I couldn't be the one to tell you... for I know very little regarding John Calvin, but what I have been reading of late, seems to have been a well versed man with the word.
    Isn't John Calvin one of the father's of the reformed movement? I see little or no difference in Calvinism and reformed doctrine. From what I can tell, the words are used interchangeably. I could be corrected on that though.

    (I would agree with you about him being well versed but that says little about his character and like you, I would rather not go there.)
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #868

    Re: Sincerely, how much credit do you take for your salvation, 50%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Amen on that one! That's one of my favorite passages in all of scripture! If there was more required than being poor in spirit, I would never make it.
    Cool man, you are quite a good communicator Mark.

  14. #869

    Re: Faith -- from God to man, or from man to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    No man would have an excuse, so would agree with your interpretation.
    But if God chooses everything, that's the ultimate excuse.

    "God, we couldn't help it! We couldn't choose anything ELSE!!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Second, God determines men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might find Him, though He's not far from anyone, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts17:26-31.
    As Paul is so good at, he builds a common basis to start from. So reaching to those who don’t know the true God, but know that there is something bigger than their groping for in a god of their own understandings. Thus, the OPEN gospel presentation! Paul educates and then declares Christ to them.
    You're missing Paul's point --- God arranges for everyone to seek Him and find Him, He's not far from anyone, and He commands all men everywhere to repent! Where is "Limited Atonement" in that?
    Then what happened: Some sneered, some joined Paul and believed… To those who believed what Paul was declaring....

    Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
    You read "tasso" (tetagmenoi) and thing it's "GOD-ordained". Noted Greek expert A.T.Robertson commented that there's no evidence of an absolute decree of salvation, Luke does not say why the Gentiles ranged themselves on God's side. Besides, two verses earlier the Jews "unelected themselves". No way that verse 46 fits "predestination".

    Acts13:48 is one of the "classic Calvinistic proof-texts", btw; one of those I call "the secondaries".
    I would disagree with your hermeneutic connection of Deuteronomy 30 with Acts 17, for Deuteronomy is towards the Jews [the blessing and the curse] and Acts 17 is towards heathens.
    With respect, your disagreement is not credible. All three passages declare the word-of-faith is not far but near. All three passages promote the idea that anyone can believe. We cannot just scratch out Deuteronomy on some pretense of "Old Covenant" (as if they weren't predestined THEN, but we are NOW!) --- because Romans10:8 says it's the same word of faith from Jesus, that saved men back then too! Each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away disobey and perish; its not too far nor too difficult for anyone.

    So I note your disagreement (expected it), but respectfully point out you have only opinion on which to base it.
    You falsely build a case that declares that Jesus is on every man’s heart,
    It's not me --- all three passages assert "it's not far, it's not out of reach, it's very near".

    ...under the doctrine of "predestined-salvation", the word-of-faith is INFINITELY too far and difficult for the unelect. (Nor would anyone have written "it's not far" if it was PREDESTINED and already sovereignly placed IN them).

    Will you recognize that Deuteronomy30:12 is a foundational refutation of "monergistic regeneration", the basis of Reformed Theology? Monergism asserts that God must reach down (to the few!) and GIVE them faith SO THAT they (will!) hear it and observe it irresistibly. And Deut30:12 fully overturns that.
    and they can either chose to believe and be saved or can turn away and perish…. How can man - who is born sinful, who loves darkness, who loves self and who doesn’t seek after God, and is naturally judged, have the ability to make a ‘choice’ for God?
    Because Jesus told us everyone is forcefully dragged to the door. Jn12:32.
    God tells us that no one seeks after Him,
    Except those who seek in Heb11:6, those who seek in Matt7:14, and those who seek in Acts17:26-31; all speaking "salvationally".
    no one does what God requires, and no one understands.
    A Davidic Lamentation, not even Pauline writing. Romans3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14 and 53; a "lamentation" is a generalization --- "no one IN GENERAL seeks, but those who seek find."
    Your case assumes that all men have Jesus within their heart and mouth, yet God does not hear the prayers of the sinner, lest one, that of repentance and faith…
    Please tell me why "my case" is not expressly stated by Deuteronomy30:11-20, Romans10:5-10, and Acts17:26-31?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So it's GOD who overcomes everyone's "total inability", and dead men are drawn to Jesus (Jn12:32) so that they can believe. Note "WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us ...by grace THROUGH FAITH" (Eph2:3-8) --- saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead!
    Again, you're misapplying John 12:32 to mean that everyone is given ability to believe.
    "All men are helkuo-dragged". Reformed Theology in many places (1Tim2:4, Rom5:18-19) reads "ALL", and writes in "SOME".
    If you read closer and in context, Jesus was referring to His death and the kind of death he would die.
    Which is the basis for men being able to believe, in Acts17:31.
    With few exceptions, most folks who know the name of Jesus also know that Jesus was crucified on the cross… If Jesus were killed by a spear, many would not remember, nor even know who this Jesus was… But when Jesus was lifted up on the cross, the entire world will know who He is and how He died, if not as their Savior, but by history who He is. That’s what this verse means. So they were not given the ability to believe, but the vision to see Jesus for who He is.
    The ability for "all men everywhere to repent", consequents from the proof of Jesus on the Cross.

    Have you and I ever discussed the Scriptural reality of "believing-because-of-seeing"? That's directly stated to Thomas in Jn20:29, it's what Jesus clearly said in John10:38, and it's the rebuke of Matt11:21-24. Why would those who had seen Jesus' miracles but still refused to believe, be judged harsher than those who had not seen Him? Jesus' audience at the time had seen Him heal the sick, raise the dead, feed the 3000 and 5000; turn water into wine, and they heard about Him walking on water. In the face of all those convincing things, they refused to believe -- and will be judged more harshly.

    Why? Fit "it will go better for THEM in the judgment than for you", into predestined-salvation. How can it be done?
    Then - Ephesians 2: 3-8… Oh no, not again. OK… One more time, and from John MacArthur commentary instead of my words: “faith; and that not of yourselves. “That refers to the entire previous statement of salvation, not only the grace but the faith. Although men are required to believe for salvation, even that faith is part of the gift of God which saves and cannot be exercised by one’s own power. God’s grace is preeminent in every aspect of salvation.”
    Well, he was more right than many Calvinist commentators. Nevertheless, "dia pistis" is a prepositional phrase. In no way does it even hint that "faith is God's gift". Robertson also agrees: "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

    A gift given by grace, is received by faith; the RECEIVING of the gift is never part OF the gift (outside of the movie, "The Stepford Wives"). Peter says it's our faith by which we receive salvation, 1:1:9 --- was he wrong? Hebrews11:6 says God receives faith from men --- they have to come to Him BY faith.

    Romans3:26 says God's justice responds to faith.

    I can give you dozens of similar verses; show me anything that places "faith" as emanating from GOD and flowing towards MEN (rather than vice-versa). And no, 2Tim2:25 ain't it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    It's also 1Cor1:21 where God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message (it is "conviction" that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom").
    More misunderstandings…
    Really? "God is well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." Does it say "through-foolishness", or not? Deny that Reformed Theology asserts heart-change and THEN belief, thus the message would cease being "foolish" and be "wisdom" and THEN belief occurs.

    Can you deny that?
    Conviction? Where does that come from? I’ll tell you…

    1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised
    And those things are only revealed after believing and receiving the Spirit!!!

    Sproul really needs to scratch that verse out of his books. So does MacArthur, White, Gill, and Piper. Spurgeon and Pink --- well, they're dead, aren't they? But their books really should be edited. 'Cause nothing in Scripture puts "heart-change before belief".

    It's ironic that all Reformed people will admit that "born-again/regenerated" cannot exist separately from "have-life/made-alive" (none can be one without the other) --- but having-life comes AFTER belief in Jn20:31 & 5:40 and they will not acknowledge it! Will you acknowledge it? Or do you have some way of reversing Jn20:31 & 5:40?
    John 7:14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.

    Don’t see that at all within John 7:14
    Yeah, you're right; MATTHEW 7:14, I was sleepy. "Few are those who heurisko-FIND-BY-SEEKING". Fully matching Matt7:7, "seek and you shall find". Fully fitting Acts17:26-31, all men should seek Him and might find Him. Fits also Jer29:11-13...

  15. #870

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Actually, that part of the chapter (verse 44), is Jesus answering verse 42.The Jews were shocked that Jesus said He came from Heaven. Verse 42 is them saying essentially "We saw this kid grow up -- who does He think He IS?!?!" Jesus responds, that those who come to Him are given by God, Jesus is expressing His AUTHORITY --- "authorized by God".

    The four "secondaries" (that is, four of the roughly 35 secondaries thought to support Calvinism) in John 6 --- verse 37, 39, 44, and 65 --- are Jesus asserting His AUTHORITY, not teaching anything about "predestination"!
    You start off saying, "actually" as if you disagree, but you agree. I used (as you did) verses both before and after verse 44 to establish his authority. Since you agree there are some before, why springboard from verse 44?
    My statement was very simple.
    "The Father draws through the Son, which is the point of the chapter."
    That's very easy to see throughout the entire chapter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    No, not "draw at the Judgment" --- yes it's speaking of His crucifixion, but it aligns with what Paul said in Acts17:31:
    "He has furnished proof to ALL MEN by raising Jesus from the dead."
    I quoted

    Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

    There's no reason to go elsewhere. We will always have enough in the context if our interpretation and understanding is correct. He doesn't drag all men to salvation. He does drag all to his Judgement Seat that he obtained through his life, death, and resurrection.

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