Calvinism / pre-destination

[Redeemed by Grace]

God influences man's mind, heart and soul and uses "it". But he doesn't set it or will it. Jer. 18 tells us that.

Ya should have just let it lay... Now I need to interject. God wills all that He has willed... Meaning that His will is done. All things are under God's will, calamity, good, evil, all things are for His glory... 'yet you, o Lord, know all their deadly designs against me...' is Jeremiah's acknowledgement that God is sovereign in all things and all ways.... why back in chapter 1 he declared, 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations....'

[Redeemed by Grace]

Exactly. Scripture says man has no excuse for rejecting God but Reformed doctrine gives them an excuse ("we couldn't help it because God didn't give us faith!").

Baloney .

[mailmandan]

Exactly. Scripture says man has no excuse for rejecting God but Reformed doctrine gives them an excuse ("we couldn't help it because God didn't give us faith!").

Reformed doctrine? I'm still trying to figure out what category I fall into. I don't look at saving faith as something that God chooses certain people to zap with and they have no choice in the matter and with other people, He simply refuses to zap them with saving faith and they never have a chance to make a choice whether or not to believe in Christ for salvation. I'm obviously not a 5 point Calvinist. I do believe though that without God drawing us and enabling us, we would never come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves (John 6:44,65), but we still choose to believe once we have been enlightened to the truth. I believe that if all that was involved in coming to saving faith in Christ was paper, ink and human intelligence, then nobody would believe and be saved. I certainly believe that man has no excuse for rejecting God.

[John146]

Ya should have just let it lay... Now I need to interject. God wills all that He has willed... Meaning that His will is done. All things are under God's will, calamity, good, evil, all things are for His glory...

Please give us scripture to back up what you said here. Are you saying all rapes, murders and other crimes/sins that people commit are for His glory?

[John146]

Baloney .

Quite a convincing response there.

Prove otherwise then. If man can't believe in Christ unless God gives him the faith to do so then how is that not a legitimate excuse for him to not have faith in Christ (if God didn't give him faith)?

[John146]

Reformed doctrine?

Also known as Calvinism. It's the view that says man doesn't have free will (or free agency as some prefer to call it) and that salvation is all up to God with man having no choice at all in the matter and so on.

I'm still trying to figure out what category I fall into. I don't look at saving faith as something that God chooses certain people to zap with and they have no choice in the matter and with other people, He simply refuses to zap them with saving faith and they never have a chance to make a choice whether or not to believe in Christ for salvation. I'm obviously not a 5 point Calvinist. I do believe though that without God drawing us and enabling us, we would never come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves (John 6:44,65), but we still choose to believe once we have been enlightened to the truth. I believe that if all that was involved in coming to saving faith in Christ was paper, ink and human intelligence, then nobody would believe and be saved. I certainly believe that man has no excuse for rejecting God.

I agree with everything you said. Some would call that view Arminianism but I'm not sure if Arminius taught all those things or not. God initiates the process and He did all the hard work through His Son but that doesn't mean man isn't responsible at all. Man is responsible to repent of his sins and put his faith in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. There is no cause for boasting in that as Calvinists try to claim. We are required to humble ourselves. Why would we then turn around and boast after having humbled ourselves before God? That makes no sense. Does a person who is in a fire and accepts the rescue of a fireman deserve credit for being rescued? Of course not. So, the criticisms that Calvinists make towards our view don't make any sense. I don't believe man saves himself but Calvinists try to claim that people who hold the view you're describing believe we save ourselves. Not so.

[Brother Mark]

Ya should have just let it lay...

Can't do it. If someone is hinting at one thing, but meaning another, it should be pointed out.

Now I need to interject. God wills all that He has willed... Meaning that His will is done. All things are under God's will, calamity, good, evil, all things are for His glory...

So, you believe God to be so self centered, so selfish, that he will create a human being and send him to hell, just so God can get glory out of it?

Yet, scripture teaches just the opposite.

Love looks like this...
1 Cor 13:4-5

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked,
NASU

What kindness is there in creating someone for hell just so God can be glorified? Love is kind and is not self centered.

Calvinist/reformers miss God's character by a mile. It's amazing to me how far...

'yet you, o Lord, know all their deadly designs against me...' is Jeremiah's acknowledgement that God is sovereign in all things and all ways.... why back in chapter 1 he declared, 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations....'

I suggested earlier that Jeremiah and JTB were chosen in a way where their will likely did not come into play. Doesn't say anything about the rest of us though.

Jesus says this about himself

John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
NASU

Want to know the heart of God? Look at Jesus. Jesus doesn't pass by the wounded man on the road to Jericho. He's neighborly with all. He doesn't place burdens on men without lifting a finger to help but he does condemn those that do such things. (That verse would alarm me if I was reformed! For that is what reformed teaching does!) There are many other things that Jesus taught, said, and did that don't line up with pure calvinistic/reformed teaching.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Lily

Hi RBG,

As it is for many others, the 23rd Psalms is a favorite scripture that I love to recall and reflect on.



The Biblical position is that God is sovereign - no doubt. And it would follow that He has the ability to override man's will - no doubt.

I submit it's more than ability... History is replete where God changes a heart [mind], change a course, changes a behavior... David who wrote most of the Psalms also knew that God could and does change hearts, for he asked God that He would create within Him a new heart, one of His nature.

And God certainly does lead, guide and direct, and override man's will in many instances (and thank goodness He does, because there have been many times that if I'd had my way things would not have gone so well as they did). But, it doesn't necessarily follow that His command to repent and believe was a command to Himself (in us) causing us to repent and believe when we did.

But why not Lilly? Not as you word this - but can man save himself before God? The answer is no, thus God sends Jesus to save? Does man desire to be saved? The answer is that every man loves darkness, thus they killed Jesus. Why then if man can't save Himself, that they killed Jesus who came to save them, and thus reject the gospel becuase they love the sin they are in, why can not God send His Spirit to birth the heart for man to then see sin for what it Is , Jesus for who He is, and believe? What make two men sitting in a church Sunday after Sunday, year after year, and three years into the routine, hears the gospel being preached one more time and BAM... he just now got it! And the guy beside him, still doesn't see the need? I submit it was God timing in calling the one to faith, in this man's own timing and way.

The command is to us, with the implication that we can either obey or not. He's the sovereign commander and He indeed commands, and there are rewards for obedience and consequences for disobedience. And in the end His perfect will will be done.

Obedience does not save a man. Obedience is an outcome of being saved. Just as the law never intend to save the Jew. That's why when we are saved, Christ lives with us and we now have His strength to not sin ever again, but also His covering for if we do that we are forgiven. So obedience doesn't earn us anything, it is our reasonable and right service of Love to our Lord.

God saves us. And He gave us a mind that is capable of understanding it, so that if we don't "jump in the boat" its our fault. God is the hero either way(!), because He gave His life to rescue us. To say that He's any less glorious if He doesn't pull us into the boat against our will is error, because regardless of what we do - go willingly or unwillingly, He came to rescue us. He did reveal to us that He did. And He gave each us a functioning mind capable of understanding it even before we were made alive in Christ.

Don't disagree with this at all. Amen.

Sure, its a mind that tended toward evil and it was dead in the sense that it was out of fellowship with the One who is Life, but it was perfectly capable of understanding that God is good, and that I was a sinner.

Here's were I have to respectfully disagree... I do not see a dimmer switch on man tending to be evil... Sin is sin, and the least of sin deserves death. David even declare that he was conceived in sin... [parents being sinners]. A babe doesn't learn bad behavior, but needs correction towards good behavior.

[QUOTE=Lily;2831008]
In that same way, now that I've been made alive with Christ, I avoid fellowship with evil, but I still retain understanding of it.

I like what you just stated... "I HAVE BEEN MADE ALIVE WITH CHRIST!" yes you have!!!!!!!!! You didn't do it, God did it!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!

We've had knowledge of evil AND good ever since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit. Every man is accountable.

Anyway, thats how I read it. I keep getting interrupted. Going to sign off for now...

Blessings,

Lily

Thanks Lily for the warm and kind conversation.... may the Lord bless your walk in faith as well....

[Brother Mark]

Exactly. Scripture says man has no excuse for rejecting God but Reformed doctrine gives them an excuse ("we couldn't help it because God didn't give us faith!").

It's not so much what reformed doctrine says or doesn't say about man that's important. It's what it says about God that really matters, and it's off by a country mile in that regard.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Can't do it. If someone is hinting at one thing, but meaning another, it should be pointed out.

Yep.... of course you had to, for you couldn't resist.

So, you believe God to be so self centered, so selfish, that he will create a human being and send him to hell, just so God can get glory out of it?

Why are you so mean to imply these words on my behalf... Come on guys, let's be real here and quite this bullying and stick with defending your position instead of throwing out your false interpretations and understandings as what my heart is declaring.

You and G-Man and Eric all seek the negative within the conversation and I must say, it's about time to call it out and be done with it for awhile...

You scream love love love, but let me tell you I don't feel any Christian love from my superior brothers who personalize their doctrines as being divinely given and related to my heart that I view my Lord and Savior as being self-centered....

So with that stated, I'm done for a while here, for there is not much love as I know love being propagated here.

[John146]

It's not so much what reformed doctrine says or doesn't say about man that's important. It's what it says about God that really matters, and it's off by a country mile in that regard.

Both are important. I would say that what it says about God is more important, but I can't agree that what it says about man isn't important. Why would you say that? Them being wrong about what man is capable of doing is part of the problem with their doctrine. They equate man being dead in sins with being a walking corpse who is unable to do anything God wants them to do without God doing it for them. But that isn't what being dead in sins means. Those who hold to Reformed doctrine don't understand the nature of man nor the nature and character of God and I think that's sad.

[Brother Mark]

Why are you so mean to imply these words on my behalf... Come on guys, let's be real here and quite this bullying and stick with defending your position instead of throwing out your false interpretations and understandings as what my heart is declaring.

You are saying that God creates a human being to send to hell so he can be glorified. I would call that self centered. What would you call it?

You scream love love love, but let me tell you I don't feel any Christian love from my superior brothers who personalize their doctrines as being divinely given and related to my heart that I view my Lord and Savior as being self-centered....

Well, what do you call it if someone torments another just so they can get glory? How would you describe that RGB?

So with that stated, I'm done for a while here, for there is not much love as I know love being propagated here.

I would agree that what you call love and what I call love are not the same!

[John146]

You and G-Man and Eric all seek the negative within the conversation and I must say, it's about time to call it out and be done with it for awhile...

Disagreements are nothing to take personally. Maybe you are not cut out to debate doctrine. And that's okay. You have to be able to handle people disagreeing with you if you're going to debate doctrine. It comes with the territory. You can't take disagreement so personally. We're not being big meanies who are trying to bully you, we're simply expressing disagreement with some of your views. Is anyone calling you names or anything like that? I don't think so. There's no reason to take what we're saying so personally. Yes, we are attacking your doctrine and not being very nice towards it, but our issue is with the doctrine, not you personally. We feel your doctrine misrepresents the character of God and that's a serious issue. We're not going to sugarcoat that. But, again, the issue is with the doctrine, not you. It seems you're a pretty nice guy most of the time so I don't really have an issue with you personally.

You scream love love love, but let me tell you I don't feel any Christian love from my superior brothers who personalize their doctrines as being divinely given and related to my heart that I view my Lord and Savior as being self-centered....

Well, he did ask you if that is what you believed so he wasn't making a definitive statement about what you believe. You don't have to take it personally. You can just say "No, that is not what I believe" and explain what you do believe and leave it at that.

[Brother Mark]

Both are important. I would say that what it says about God is more important, but I can't agree that what it says about man isn't important. Why would you say that? Them being wrong about what man is capable of doing is part of the problem with their doctrine. They equate man being dead in sins with being a walking corpse who is unable to do anything God wants them to do without God doing it for them. But that isn't what being dead in sins means. Those who hold to Reformed doctrine don't understand the nature of man nor the nature and character of God and I think that's sad.

IMO, if your doctrine about God is off, then it is very difficult, if not impossible to have right doctrine about man. If the doctrine about God is right, then it is harder to have wrong doctrine about man. That's why I say it is more important to get it right about God. The rest flows from there.

[Gadgeteer]

Depends on what you mean by "trumps". I would agree God is always sovereign. But he does give men a choice and responds to that choice as he told us in Jer. 18. Yet, within that offer to man, God is sovereign.

In concept, I wouldn't argue against what you wrote.... Thus for me a breakthrough of understandings... God is sovereign with the mind of man, as man plans and does.

Most "Reformed Theologians" read Proverbs 16:9 ("The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps") --- and think all that man's steps are directed BEFORE he believes and turns to God. It is no violation Scripture to avail Himself to all men (the message/call sufficient to overcome "total inability"), and His step-directing working through a man's faith. (A man "planning his way", is SEEKING the Lord THROUGH faith, THEREFORE God directs his steps. God does not direct the steps of the unrighteous!)

Nor is it a violation of God's sovereignty!

Ironic that a few verses earlier (Prov16:4), many Reformed people also perceive that God makes (some) men wicked. Not what it says.

Does Jesus stop by and help the man on the road to Jericho? Is he neighborly?

Jesus is both God and man, so as a man, He walks as a man would walk... He teaches by words and by examples... It's both.

Then how (in your paradigm) does God walk cruelly by the "sick/sinners" and leave them to die?

Why is GOD so un-Samaritan-like???

Whoever stated that He believes for a man? He enables your and my faith, through the course of who we are. [But I do hold that His Spirit within me many time prays for me when words fail me.] I believe Mark that before the world began that I was purposed by God to have faith in Him

How is that different than "God believes for a man"?

that I was to be born 1st as a sinner as everyone else, and that to a date and time that He had planned, made arrangements within my life for me to hear the Gospel once again one summer evening in 1971, where looking back it was God's will that I see Him as my Savior and thank Him daily for saving me when I wasn't looking for Him.

Why does God not predestine "the Sheep" to be saved from CHILDHOOD? Why does God want people to live in sin and unbelief (children of Hell just like the rest, not like sheep, as Paul words it in Eph2) for much of their lives?

Why aren't questions like these trouble for "Reformed Theology"?

Salvation is of and from the Lord.

We are on a roll here... AMEN!

However, man must believe and God will help men believe but some suppress and resist God's help. Romans 1 tells us that as well as other verses.

I will give you an 'A' and not the 'men, because I agree with half of your comment... For the all whosoever shall believes -- come to the cross without any doctrines, lest that of hearing the gospel and repenting and believing. Then looking back as time moves forward and as one studies, can see the Love God had in His Son placed upon you, that you are the Father gift to the Son, for the work of the Son's reward.

So He is a "God of love" for the FEW --- what is He for the rest? A "God of hate", right? He HATES them even before they were born and did anything good or bad, doesn't He?

More troubling questions, that most Reformed people will not engage. No offense meant.

Mark is 100% right --- men resist the Spirit (Acts7:51), and such a statement makes no sense if men are predestined to salvation (therefore grace is irresistible), or predestined to perish (therefore such rebukes are WASTED on those who irresistibly disbelieve!).

If you have seen "Reformed Theology" as a smooth road so far, now you are seeing some serious ruts and potholes --- aren't you?