Calvinism / pre-destination

[keyzer soze]

Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man? And repeating what was stated before, who's 'owns' your salvation, you or Christ? For if you answer Man, then it's works that are counted as both surety and owner. If you say Christ, then His work covers; His work redeems. I hold to the later, you above are proclaiming the former.

The earmarks, the self examination of salvation --- are that of Love of God; Love for thy Neighbor. If one is saved, he will know and be known by these two things... and through these two, all other things flow.... including obedience... Thus obedience does not save or hold one as saved, obedience is an outflow from being saved. Nothing more...nothing less. the Catch 22 that John writes in 1 John is.... don't sin : if you say you don't sin, you are a liar... again behaviors of a true christian, not works of salvation to confirm ones saved position... For we do not own title to our salvation, Jesus does.

So by my calling to faith, I have been given the wisdom of God to hear, believe and respond through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that day my life changed from death unto life.... And in over 40 years of walking in the works He has prepared for me to walk in, give Him all the Glory for the great things He has done in my life --- I have His surety of Hope, through His Spirit within me that I am His forever.... My obedience comes from His teaching and His correcting and His guiding, and His showing, and His protecting, and His holding me from the death of my old self to the life in Christ. My obedience doesn't earn, it even doesn't show my salvation... for it should show my Love for Him, and for His Glory!!!

As I type this, all I want to do is shout out to the Lord.... Praise God! Can I have an Amen!

Amen!

I believe one concept often overshadowed by the free-will/election debate is the judgement of SIN itself. It seems like the main argument against God's election or God sovereignty Lording over everything, even on top of man's free-will, is the issue of "fairness" and how does the "get out of hell card" get fairly reconciled. I believe this is where the 2 theologies diverge in thought. Either one looks at salvation as a total baffling gift from God, purely through GRACE, and truly NO ONE is deserving of it because we should ALL deal with our sins that were committed against an infinite, eternal, holy God OR one only focuses on the "salvation issue" and does everyone get a fair shake at believing?

For me personally, my thoughts turn to the first because I believe what Jesus taught was that EVERYONE is deserving of hell. That has to be your starting point. One must address SIN and the consequence of it. SIN is the issue here, the focus should not be so much on FAITH as it is on SIN to start. Until someone understands and believes that their SIN should truly be rewarded by an eternal separation from God for all eternity it is pointless to discuss FAITH and where it comes from. And for me personally, once I understood the CONFLICT between a Holy God and SIN I was able to see the real predicament I was in. I believe the better question to ask, the one I am constantly struggling with myself, is why in the heavens would I receive God's GRACE when it is apparent that so many do not? This is the hardest thing I have ever faced and its so hard that it does shake my faith. When I talk to my family members and they simply don't get it I sometimes set back and wonder, "WOW, is it really this hard? Have I simply brain-washed myself that I believe this but they do not? Surely if God wants to save me He would want to save them more." The harsh reality is that we are not to know or understand how God pours out his Grace. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

One verse that I have heard used as an argument AGAINST God's sovereignty in the task of saving is this: Acts 10:34 (KJV) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

I believe this verse to not be an argument against sovereignty of will in salvation but rather having the same meaning as John 3:8 and that is just as the wind is completely unpredictable to us so too is God's ways of drawing people to him. God does NOT care what titles, nationality (Jewish vs. Gentile), riches or deeds we have done on earth in the flesh when it comes to saving our wretched hides. God's ways and reasons are His, we are simply asked to TRUST Him despite the fact that we can define the pattern of those born-again as well as the shifting wind, that is to say not at all.

I do not pretend to have the answers. I do not claim to be able to reconcile everything in the Bible into some logical equation that I believe in. I simply believe that God is BIG, really BIG and that He loves me and wants to show me mercy out of shear grace for reasons I really don't understand. And I do my best to wrap my head around that awesome gift and accept it the best I can because it is so unbelievable because I fully recognize that at the core I am rotten and a sinner and shake at the thought of standing before a Holy God and what He sees... my only hope is that He will see His Son and His righteousness on me and all that I bring to the table was nailed to that cross 2000 years ago, if that is not the case I will have to be put as far away from a Holy God as possible or I will taint his Holiness.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Amen!

I believe one concept often overshadowed by the free-will/election debate is the judgement of SIN itself. It seems like the main argument against God's election or God sovereignty Lording over everything, even on top of man's free-will, is the issue of "fairness" and how does the "get out of hell card" get fairly reconciled. I believe this is where the 2 theologies diverge in thought. Either one looks at salvation as a total baffling gift from God, purely through GRACE, and truly NO ONE is deserving of it because we should ALL deal with our sins that were committed against an infinite, eternal, holy God OR one only focuses on the "salvation issue" and does everyone get a fair shake at believing?

For me personally, my thoughts turn to the first because I believe what Jesus taught was that EVERYONE is deserving of hell. That has to be your starting point. One must address SIN and the consequence of it. SIN is the issue here, the focus should not be so much on FAITH as it is on SIN to start. Until someone understands and believes that their SIN should truly be rewarded by an eternal separation from God for all eternity it is pointless to discuss FAITH and where it comes from. And for me personally, once I understood the CONFLICT between a Holy God and SIN I was able to see the real predicament I was in. I believe the better question to ask, the one I am constantly struggling with myself, is why in the heavens would I receive God's GRACE when it is apparent that so many do not? This is the hardest thing I have ever faced and its so hard that it does shake my faith. When I talk to my family members and they simply don't get it I sometimes set back and wonder, "WOW, is it really this hard? Have I simply brain-washed myself that I believe this but they do not? Surely if God wants to save me He would want to save them more." The harsh reality is that we are not to know or understand how God pours out his Grace. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

One verse that I have heard used as an argument AGAINST God's sovereignty in the task of saving is this: Acts 10:34 (KJV) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

I believe this verse to not be an argument against sovereignty of will in salvation but rather having the same meaning as John 3:8 and that is just as the wind is completely unpredictable to us so too is God's ways of drawing people to him. God does NOT care what titles, nationality (Jewish vs. Gentile), riches or deeds we have done on earth in the flesh when it comes to saving our wretched hides. God's ways and reasons are His, we are simply asked to TRUST Him despite the fact that we can define the pattern of those born-again as well as the shifting wind, that is to say not at all.

Or stated another way, there is nothing a man can do to get the favor of God to look his way...

I do not pretend to have the answers. I do not claim to be able to reconcile everything in the Bible into some logical equation that I believe in. I simply believe that God is BIG, really BIG and that He loves me and wants to show me mercy out of shear grace for reasons I really don't understand. And I do my best to wrap my head around that awesome gift and accept it the best I can because it is so unbelievable because I fully recognize that at the core I am rotten and a sinner and shake at the thought of standing before a Holy God and what He sees... my only hope is that He will see His Son and His righteousness on me and all that I bring to the table was nailed to that cross 2000 years ago, if that is not the case I will have to be put as far away from a Holy God as possible or I will taint his Holiness.

Ahh the fire of a young Christian... who oozes the Love of Christ as he pursues the pearl of great value. May your fervency only increase as you diligently seek His face in worship!

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Not to separate, but to bind... I say preach it, for no one should argue against the Holiness and the sovereignty of God.

[CFJ]

Howdy CFJ... It's been an age since we spoke... Hope all is well!!!

All is well RbG, mainly because God is in control and not me...

More serious though, I truly believe that God is mainly the active partner in our relationship and we are primarily the reactive partner. I'm not a Calvinist myself, but when looking at Scripture, the Calvinist viewpoint seems to align more to my own believes, than any other...

[Redeemed by Grace]

All is well RbG, mainly because God is in control and not me...

More serious though, I truly believe that God is mainly the active partner in our relationship and we are primarily the reactive partner. I'm not a Calvinist myself, but when looking at Scripture, the Calvinist viewpoint seems to align more to my own believes, than any other...

Labels don't do one's faith justice.... but I guess it's the way of the "Christian World" today... For I'm then probably a:

"Premil, prewrath, God sovereigntist, quasi-covenantist with a twist of progressive revelationist, with a trinitarianist creationist bent, grounded as a reformist viewing the 5 solaist with a Pauline/Augustine/Luther/Spurgeon/Pink/Bruce/MacArthur/Piper/Begg and soon to add Calvinist background, fundamental independent Baptist bible believing christian.... Not just the KJV mind you" ---- or in short: a "supracavinistic-expe-ala-dosious" Hum diddle little, Hum diddle a.

[Gadgeteer]

Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man?

My opinion is irrelevant --- what does Scripture say?

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these; as you do you will save yourselves..." 1Tim4:16

Whose choice is "perseverance-in-salvation" in that verse?

"Abide in Him, so that when He appears we ...not shrink in shame at His coming (be found in sin)". 1Jn2:28

Whose choice is it to abide in Jesus, or to abide in sin (therefore shrink-in-shame before Jesus) in that verse?

"Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God". Jude20-21.

Whose choice is it to "keep ourselves in His love" there?

"Therefore (against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast; as long as you practice these things you will not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates of the kingdom will BE provided!" 2Pet1:5-11

Whose choice is "diligence-in-salvation" in Peter's words?

With respect, I could go on citing literally dozens of identical verses; but unless and until these verses are answered, the issue will never be resolved. Are you willing to answer them? Also --- all the verses about "being-deceived-from-Jesus" (of which, the 1Jn2:26-28 is a clear one!) must also be answered. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Cor11:3. Can we be deceived-away-from-Jesus, or do we have to remove these verses from our Bibles?

And repeating what was stated before, who's 'owns' your salvation, you or Christ?

I'm not understanding what you mean; salvation is the consequence of our own faith, 1Pet1:9. That is why Paul wrote in Romans1:17 "from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith" --- what if faith can turn and become faithlessness? Have you considered 2Tim2:11-13?

"If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
(But!) If we deny Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!); if we are faithless He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself."

If we died and if we endure, we will reign with Christ (will be saved); but if we deny Him and are faithless, we will NOT reign with Him and He WILL deny us before God and we will NOT receive eternal life! How can we change Paul's clear words?

For if you answer Man, then it's works that are counted as both surety and owner.

Not works at all -- you have never said "works-salvation", and neither have I.

If you say Christ, then His work covers; His work redeems. I hold to the later, you above are proclaiming the former.

No; again, yours or my opinion doesn't matter --- look at what Paul said:

"I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (abide in Jesus' teachings!) ...guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure (of eternal life!) that has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14.

Abiding-in-Jesus-and-His-teachings, is not "works-salvation"! It is "abiding in Christ and His teachings", it is "Persevering in faith"! We cannot throw away 1Tim4:16, nor 1Jn2:26-28, nor 2Pet3:17, nor Jude20-21, nor 2Pet1:5-11, nor Col2:6-8 nor Eph4:22-24 nor 1Cor9:25-27 nor 2Cor13:5 nor 2Cor11:3 nor Col1:21-23 nor 1Tim4:1 nor Heb3:12-14 nor Heb4:11 nor Heb6:11-12 nor 1Tim6:10 & 20-21 nor DOZENS of identical passages!

The earmarks, the self examination of salvation --- are that of Love of God; Love for thy Neighbor. If one is saved, he will know and be known by these two things... and through these two, all other things flow.... including obedience... Thus obedience does not save or hold one as saved, obedience is an outflow from being saved.

In all the verses we just read --- whose choice is it to "continue in Christ and in salvation"? How do you answer these verses? 2Tim2:11-13 --- two very possible positions are advanced, one saved and one unsaved. How do you make the "unsaved", impossible? "Self-examination" --- 2Cor13:5 is identical in concept to 2Pet1:5-11; we are to test ourselves to see if we are in Christ. It uses the same "adokimos-disqualified" as 1Cor9:25-27 uses, where we're admonished to "race so as to win the IMMORTAL CROWN (eternal life!)". Then Paul says his OWN position could ALSO be "adokimos-disqualified/unapproved"! Can anyone deny "fallible salvation", in Paul's own words?

Nothing more...nothing less. the Catch 22 that John writes in 1 John is.... don't sin : if you say you don't sin, you are a liar... again behaviors of a true christian, not works of salvation to confirm ones saved position... For we do not own title to our salvation, Jesus does.

What does that mean? True that there is only one Savior --- yet, in 1Tim4:16 we "save ourselves", in that we participate in salvation by our faith! "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!" 1Pet1:9!

Have you considered the whole letter of Galatians? The audience "began in the Spirit" (3:3), they were "KNOWN by God" (4:9), they were "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7); but by turning back to weak/worthless things (works, 4:9) to be enslaved all over again, they became SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE! 5:4! Can anyone make "became fallen from grace", into "NOT became fallen from grace"?

So by my calling to faith, I have been given the wisdom of God to hear, believe and respond through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that day my life changed from death unto life.... And in over 40 years of walking in the works He has prepared for me to walk in, give Him all the Glory for the great things He has done in my life --- I have His surety of Hope, through His Spirit within me that I am His forever.... My obedience comes from His teaching and His correcting and His guiding, and His showing, and His protecting, and His holding me from the death of my old self to the life in Christ. My obedience doesn't earn, it even doesn't show my salvation... for it should show my Love for Him, and for His Glory!!!

For you --- when you assure me that you love Him completely, and rejoice in His presence, then my heart is at peace about you. But what if you can be deceived tomorrow? Suppose we never come to agreement, but agree-to-disagree and lay aside the discussion to fellowship together. Then suppose you face some great temptation in the future; suppose something we discussed comes back to your memory and strengthens you, that you stand. My life will have been a success for the strength that God gave you through me, and I will have won YOU as a brother forever.

As I type this, all I want to do is shout out to the Lord.... Praise God! Can I have an Amen!

I will joyfully second your "Amen". And I look forward to your understanding of all these verses which teach the same thing. My desire is NEVER to damage you or hinder your walk with Jesus; but rather to show you something in Scripture you have not considered before.

Evil always strives to lure us away from Jesus. Paul said in 2Cor11:3 we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve was! Shall we turn a cold shoulder to all these warnings and admonitions? Never! For they are ALSO our brothers, those who walked with Jesus, and they are equally concerned for OUR continuance in Christ ans salvation! The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter after chapter, is warning against "falling-from-salvation". The entire letter of Galatians is. And so are 2Peter and James. What shall we do with their words? What is the interpretation that proposes "you-can't-fall", in the face of their words?

"Do not harden your hearts. Take care, brethren, lest your hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. We are Christ's house IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." Heb3:6-14!

[Redeemed by Grace]

My opinion is irrelevant --- what does Scripture say?

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these; as you do you will save yourselves..." 1Tim4:16

Whose choice is "perseverance-in-salvation" in that verse?

"Abide in Him, so that when He appears we ...not shrink in shame at His coming (be found in sin)". 1Jn2:28

Whose choice is it to abide in Jesus, or to abide in sin (therefore shrink-in-shame before Jesus) in that verse?

"Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God". Jude20-21.

Whose choice is it to "keep ourselves in His love" there?

[size=1"Therefore (against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast; as long as you practice these things you will not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates of the kingdom will BE provided!" 2Pet1:5-11[/size]

Whose choice is "diligence-in-salvation" in Peter's words?

With respect, I could go on citing literally dozens of identical verses; but unless and until these verses are answered, the issue will never be resolved. Are you willing to answer them? Also --- all the verses about "being-deceived-from-Jesus" (of which, the 1Jn2:26-28 is a clear one!) must also be answered. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Cor11:3. Can we be deceived-away-from-Jesus, or do we have to remove these verses from our Bibles?
I'm not understanding what you mean; salvation is the consequence of our own faith, 1Pet1:9. That is why Paul wrote in Romans1:17 "from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith" --- what if faith can turn and become faithlessness? Have you considered 2Tim2:11-13?

"If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
(But!) If we deny Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!); if we are faithless He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself."

If we died and if we endure, we will reign with Christ (will be saved); but if we deny Him and are faithless, we will NOT reign with Him and He WILL deny us before God and we will NOT receive eternal life! How can we change Paul's clear words?
Not works at all -- you have never said "works-salvation", and neither have I. No; again, yours or my opinion doesn't matter --- look at what Paul said:

"I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (abide in Jesus' teachings!) ...guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure (of eternal life!) that has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14.

Abiding-in-Jesus-and-His-teachings, is not "works-salvation"! It is "abiding in Christ and His teachings", it is "Persevering in faith"! We cannot throw away 1Tim4:16, nor 1Jn2:26-28, nor 2Pet3:17, nor Jude20-21, nor 2Pet1:5-11, nor Col2:6-8 nor Eph4:22-24 nor 1Cor9:25-27 nor 2Cor13:5 nor 2Cor11:3 nor Col1:21-23 nor Heb3:12-14 nor Heb4:11 nor Heb6:11-12 nor 1Tim6:10 & 20-21 nor DOZENS of identical passages!
In all the verses we just read --- whose choice is it to "continue in Christ and in salvation"? How do you answer these verses? 2Tim2:11-13 --- two very possible positions are advanced, one saved and one unsaved. How do you make the "unsaved", impossible? "Self-examination" --- 2Cor13:5 is identical in concept to 2Pet1:5-11; we are to test ourselves to see if we are in Christ. It uses the same "adokimos-disqualified" as 1Cor9:25-27 uses, where we're admonished to "race so as to win the IMMORTAL CROWN (eternal life!)". Then Paul says his OWN position could ALSO be "adokimos-disqualified/unapproved"! Can anyone deny "fallible salvation", in Paul's own words? What does that mean? True that there is only one Savior --- yet, in 1Tim4:16 we "save ourselves", in that we participate in salvation by our faith! "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!" 1Pet1:9!

Have you considered the whole letter of Galatians? The audience "began in the Spirit" (3:3), they were "KNOWN by God" (4:9), they were "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7); but by turning back to weak/worthless things (4:9) works, to be enslaved all over again, they became SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE! 5:4! Can anyone make "became fallen from grace", into "NOT became fallen from grace"?
For you --- when you assure me that you love Him completely, and rejoice in His presence, then my heart is at peace about you. But what if you can be deceived tomorrow? Suppose we never come to agreement, but agree-to-disagree and lay aside the discussion to fellowship together. Then suppose you face some great temptation in the future; suppose something we discussed comes back to your memory and strengthens you, that you stand. My life will have been a success for the strength that God gave you through me, and I will have won YOU as a brother forever.
I will joyfully second your "Amen". And I look forward to your understanding of all these verses which teach the same thing. My desire is NEVER to damage you or hinder your walk with Jesus; but rather to show you something in Scripture you have not considered before.

Evil always strives to lure us away from Jesus. Paul said in 2Cor11:3 we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve was! Shall we turn a cold shoulder to all these warnings and admonitions? Never! For they are ALSO our brothers, those who walked with Jesus, and they are equally concerned for OUR continuance in Christ ans salvation! The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter after chapter, is warning against "falling-from-salvation". The entire letter of Galatians is. And so are 2Peter and James. What shall we do with their words? What is the interpretation that proposes "you-can't-fall", in the face of their words?

"Do not harden your hearts. Take care, brethren, lest your hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. We are Christ's house IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." Heb3:6-14!

I must say you are very prolific in your replies.. I gotta jump on another call, but maybe will sneak back in and try to fit together all of what you wrote...

[Gadgeteer]

and

Magnificent answer!!

"ChristianCoffee", you are cordially invited to consider post 95, immediately above. How do you understand all those verses, which convey the identical warnings and admonitions? Do you think I've "missed the boat" on Scripture? What is your understanding?

Another from me too. I like a quote from one of our older members (Follower), that Christ is perfectly in control of those who will be saved. Letting God be God, is a wonderful and a peaceful thing. He knows what He is doing, as simple as that and we could either believe it or not.

Same invitation to you also, "CFJ". If Christ is "perfectly in control of those who will be saved", then how do we "save ourselves" by perseverance in 1Tim4:16? On what are we judged (Romans2:6-8)? What do all those warnings mean?

If we discuss only one verse --- what is the risk and the danger in 2Cor11:3?

[John146]

Calvinists emphatically assert support of “free will” --- but this is redefined into ”men freely will, but only according to their natures; if left unregenerate they freely will to disbelieve, if sovereignly and monergistically regenerated they freely will to believe!”

Thus, “free will, which has only one choice”. Clearly a will that can make only one choice is not free! Free will is clear in Rev22:17, in Jn7:17, and in many other passages. This is a redefinition of “free will”.

Exactly. If there is only one "choice" that God determined for us then there is no free will.

[Gadgeteer]

Amen!

I believe one concept often overshadowed by the free-will/election debate is the judgment of SIN itself. It seems like the main argument against God's election or God sovereignty Lording over everything, even on top of man's free-will...

Keyzer, where exactly in Scripture is the idea of "God lording over even man's free will"? What does John7:17 mean to you?

We're commanded to love God. (Matt22:37). If "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5), then how is it that you perceive God pulls the puppet-strings on who loves Him BACK?

...is the issue of "fairness" and how does the "get out of hell card" get fairly reconciled.

It has to fit Romans2:4-8, does it? Please explain how God's kindness leads to repentance, if not everyone "led", repents?

I believe this is where the 2 theologies diverge in thought. Either one looks at salvation as a total baffling gift from God, purely through GRACE, and truly NO ONE is deserving of it because we should ALL deal with our sins that were committed against an infinite, eternal, holy God OR one only focuses on the "salvation issue" and does everyone get a fair shake at believing?

Because it is not "purely through Grace". It is "by grace, through faith". On Eph2:8 noted commentator and Greek authority A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

That's what Peter stated in 1:1:9 --- receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation.

For me personally, my thoughts turn to the first because I believe what Jesus taught was that EVERYONE is deserving of hell. That has to be your starting point.

Fine so far.

One must address SIN and the consequence of it. SIN is the issue here, the focus should not be so much on FAITH as it is on SIN to start. Until someone understands and believes that their SIN should truly be rewarded by an eternal separation from God for all eternity it is pointless to discuss FAITH and where it comes from.

Where does faith come from? In Acts2:37 --- they were persuaded/convicted by Peter's words, weren't they?

Romans 10 says "Faith comes from HEARING" --- and it says, "with the heart, man believes". Faith comes from the heart, doesn't it? Rom6:17 agrees; we become obedient-from-the-heart...

And for me personally, once I understood the CONFLICT between a Holy God and SIN I was able to see the real predicament I was in. I believe the better question to ask, the one I am constantly struggling with myself, is why in the heavens would I receive God's GRACE when it is apparent that so many do not?

Please show me anywhere in Scripture where God's grace is not made available to anyone. Will you?

This is the hardest thing I have ever faced and its so hard that it does shake my faith. When I talk to my family members and they simply don't get it I sometimes set back and wonder, "WOW, is it really this hard? Have I simply brain-washed myself that I believe this but they do not? Surely if God wants to save me He would want to save them more." The harsh reality is that we are not to know or understand how God pours out his Grace.

When Scripture says "God loved the WORLD", how do you change that in your understanding to "God loved only SOME"?

John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

You're taking a verse which asserts:
"You can't see the wind either, but know it's there by its effects; spiritual birth us just as unseen but just as real"
...and trying to make it into:
"The wind blows salvation onto only a few whom it wishes"!

One verse that I have heard used as an argument AGAINST God's sovereignty in the task of saving is this: Acts 10:34 (KJV) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

I believe this verse to not be an argument against sovereignty of will in salvation...

Finish the quote:
"God is not partial, BUT in every land he WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME."

God's position is receiving the attentions of men --- and plainly stated, the opposite of that (which is what "predestined-salvation" is founded on!) is partiality/bias/hypocrisy that God is NOT!

...but rather having the same meaning as John 3:8 and that is just as the wind is completely unpredictable to us so too is God's ways of drawing people to him.

So God decides on a WHIM whom to save, and whom to hopelessly helplessly inescapably send to Hell. Then God runs this Final Judgment, judging MEN for what He Himself decided.

Condemned Man: "God, I had no chance, You decreed me to perish and sin; You withheld my only chance!"
God: "Gee, that's too bad, isn't it? Depart from me into what you DESERVE, which you had NO chance of escaping or turning from; tough luck, buddy."

Isn't that what will happen at the Judgment?

God does NOT care what titles, nationality (Jewish vs. Gentile), riches or deeds we have done on earth in the flesh when it comes to saving our wretched hides. God's ways and reasons are His, we are simply asked to TRUST Him despite the fact that we can define the pattern of those born-again as well as the shifting wind, that is to say not at all.

Please balance "God enables only a FEW to BE saved and they irresistibly believe, the rest irresistibly perish", with Ezk18:24:
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked (says the Lord God), rather than that they should repent and live?"

How does that fit into your perception?

I do not pretend to have the answers. I do not claim to be able to reconcile everything in the Bible into some logical equation that I believe in.

Well, with respect --- you're gonna hafta start reconciling the very clear verses we've been discussing, or you'll have to just start marking them out in your copy. I mean no disrespect --- but I think our discussion has established very clear things in Scripture. What will you do with them?

I simply believe that God is BIG, really BIG and that He loves me and wants to show me mercy out of shear grace for reasons I really don't understand.

But He doesn't love the REST and doesn't want to show THEM mercy. What do you have over them that God is able to show such favoritism/partiality?

And I do my best to wrap my head around that awesome gift and accept it the best I can because it is so unbelievable because I fully recognize that at the core I am rotten and a sinner and shake at the thought of standing before a Holy God and what He sees...

Okay --- point blank question:
How do you know that you are a FIFTEENER (Luke8:15), and not a THIRTEENER (Lk8:13) who only THINKS he's saved but WILL fall away some day (proving unelection!).

How can you know which you are? The thirteeners received the word with JOY and BELIEVED! What was the difference between the thirteeners, and the fifteeners? Why did God want ONE, and not the OTHER?

my only hope is that He will see His Son and His righteousness on me and all that I bring to the table was nailed to that cross 2000 years ago, if that is not the case I will have to be put as far away from a Holy God as possible or I will taint his Holiness.

Please tell me how God can be "holy" and ordain/purpose/predestine the vast majority to sin and Hell. No disrespect meant, I'd like to understand how you perceive that.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I've asked you some very pointed questions, which should make you seriously re-examine your beliefs; there is no crime in anyone making any of us re-examine our beliefs. The only crime would be to stop short of a full examination.

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on the question in red.

[Redeemed by Grace]

My opinion is irrelevant --- what does Scripture say?

Isn't what then follows in your reply your opinions? If it doesn't matter, why write it then? It's not opinion that is important but understandings, so I would disagree that each of us has to discern to understand. You are giving me understanding to your own questions about the Arminian ways of faith. How about giving your understandings to just one of mine?

Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man?

[keyzer soze]

Exactly. If there is only one "choice" that God determined for us then there is no free will.

So did Jesus have free-will outside of God's sovereign plan? Could he have gone another way in the garden? Sure reads to me like Jesus had free-will and was tormented by what was to come, so much so that he was praying to not have to go through with it. - I see Jesus exercising free-will here INSIDE of God's sovereign plan... they are both true!

39 And He came out and proceeded as was His custom to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples also followed Him. 40 When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” 41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.

Was the conversation/temptation between Jesus and Satan just a waste of time for a book story? Was there actual free-will for Jesus to even consider the possibility of bowing to Satan? I believe that Jesus, as fully man, was indeed fully tempted and exercised free-will that is as real to him as it is to us today. If Jesus did not actually conquer temptation with free-will then His perfect sacrifice is a sham that means nothing, right? No, we are taught that Jesus was fully man and fully God and thus he truly had the free-will that we have today... however that free-will is/was never outside of God's sovereign will! God knows all outcomes BEFORE they happen. God knew that Jesus was going to beat satan at the cross before the foundations of the earth were laid but that doesn't make what Jesus did any less in any way and the fact that it was all "predestined" to God before creation does not lower it's greatness in any way? Does it? So in the same way if God knows I will turn to Him before creation does that change anything? God's will is always done because he is sovereign, without God nothing can happen.

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”
5 Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’; and ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
7 Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
8 Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9 and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” 11 Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

[Gadgeteer]

I must say you are very prolific in your replies.. I gotta jump on another call, but maybe will sneak back in and try to fit together all of what you wrote...

Hah hah! Yes, well; I've studied and studied, and these verses all fit together for me smoothly. I posted some of the verses, cited others --- and there really are dozens more just like them. I'd like you to at least glance at the ones cited and not quoted, to make sure I'm not "just all wet".

I sincerely look forward to your thoughts.

:-)

[John146]

So did Jesus have free-will outside of God's sovereign plan? Could he have gone another way in the garden? Sure reads to me like Jesus had free-will and was tormented by what was to come, so much so that he was praying to not have to go through with it. - I see Jesus exercising free-will here INSIDE of God's sovereign plan... they are both true!

But would you say there was no possibility of Him choosing to not go through with it? If so then what kind of "free" will is that?

Anyway, you're talking about Jesus here, but I was talking about people in general and the fact that all people are required to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Do you believe all people have the free will to choose whether or not to believe in Jesus and be saved as a result? In other words, do you believe all people have a realistic opportunity to be saved?

Was the conversation/temptation between Jesus and Satan just a waste of time for a book story? Was there actual free-will for Jesus to even consider the possibility of bowing to Satan?

Sure. Otherwise, how could it be really be considered a temptation? It doesn't seem to me that something could be called a temptation if there was no possibility at all for the person to give in to it.

I believe that Jesus, as fully man, was indeed fully tempted and exercised free-will that is as real to him as it is to us today.

Sure. But what is your point here exactly? Hopefully I'll see your point as I read on.

If Jesus did not actually conquer temptation with free-will then His perfect sacrifice is a sham that means nothing, right? No, we are taught that Jesus was fully man and fully God and thus he truly had the free-will that we have today... however that free-will is/was never outside of God's sovereign will!

What does that mean? I don't know what you're trying to say.

God knows all outcomes BEFORE they happen.

So what? You make this point repeatedly and then we have to repeatedly remind you that just because He knows something beforehand doesn't mean He causes it to happen. Do you understand that?

God knew that Jesus was going to beat satan at the cross before the foundations of the earth were laid but that doesn't make what Jesus did any less in any way and the fact that it was all "predestined" to God before creation does not lower it's greatness in any way? Does it?

You lost me here. Tell me, did Jesus resist Satan's temptations because He chose not to or did God predetermine for Him to do that which would mean it was actually the Father's choice and not Christ's choice to do so?

So in the same way if God knows I will turn to Him before creation does that change anything? God's will is always done because he is sovereign, without God nothing can happen.

Sorry, but you're not making any sense here. This kind of logic would lead to the conclusion that every sin that occurs is God's will. If that was the case then why does God punish people for their sins (if they don't repent)? How does it make sense that He would punish people for doing His will? That doesn't make any sense at all. He punishes people for going against His will.

[Gadgeteer]

Exactly. If there is only one "choice" that God determined for us then there is no free will.

That's the very definition of "free will" --- there has to be more than one choice! There is a word that is descriptive of the idea, but it offends some; so I'll apologize in advance. The idea that "God changes someone's heart and mind so that he WILLS to be righteous and to believe", is akin to a lobotomy. A hardened criminal who undergoes a lobotomy and becomes kind and law-abiding --- did he have any choice in that?

The essence of God and His creation, is LOVE --- we know that "love does not demand its own way" (1Cor13:5). This is so straightforward and open, who can deny it? For God to make the decision --- it can't be "love"! We would be puppets!

God doesn't want puppets. He wants fellowship with real thinking feeling creatures who MUST be free to love Him back!

[keyzer soze]

Keyzer, where exactly in Scripture is the idea of "God lording over even man's free will"? What does John7:17 mean to you?

We're commanded to love God. (Matt22:37). If "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5), then how is it that you perceive God pulls the puppet-strings on who loves Him BACK? It has to fit Romans2:4-8, does it? Please explain how God's kindness leads to repentance, if not everyone "led", repents? Because it is not "purely through Grace". It is "by grace, through faith". On Eph2:8 noted commentator and Greek authority A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

That's what Peter stated in 1:1:9 --- receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation.
Fine so far. Where does faith come from? In Acts2:37 --- they were persuaded/convicted by Peter's words, weren't they?

Romans 10 says "Faith comes from HEARING" --- and it says, "with the heart, man believes". Faith comes from the heart, doesn't it? Rom6:17 agrees; we become obedient-from-the-heart... Please show me anywhere in Scripture where God's grace is not made available to anyone. Will you? When Scripture says "God loved the WORLD", how do you change that in your understanding to "God loved only SOME"? You're taking a verse which asserts:
"You can't see the wind either, but know it's there by its effects; spiritual birth us just as unseen but just as real"
...and trying to make it into:
"The wind blows salvation onto only a few whom it wishes"!
Finish the quote:
"God is not partial, BUT in every land he WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME."

God's position is receiving the attentions of men --- and plainly stated, the opposite of that (which is what "predestined-salvation" is founded on!) is partiality/bias/hypocrisy that God is NOT! So God decides on a WHIM whom to save, and whom to hopelessly helplessly inescapably send to Hell. Then God runs this Final Judgment, judging MEN for what He Himself decided.

Condemned Man: "God, I had no chance, You decreed me to perish and sin; You withheld my only chance!"
God: "Gee, that's too bad, isn't it? Depart from me into what you DESERVE, which you had NO chance of escaping or turning from; tough luck, buddy."

Isn't that what will happen at the Judgment? Please balance "God enables only a FEW to BE saved and they irresistibly believe, the rest irresistibly perish", with Ezk18:24:
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked (says the Lord God), rather than that they should repent and live?"

How does that fit into your perception?
Well, with respect --- you're gonna hafta start reconciling the very clear verses we've been discussing, or you'll have to just start marking them out in your copy. I mean no disrespect --- but I think our discussion has established very clear things in Scripture. What will you do with them? But He doesn't love the REST and doesn't want to show THEM mercy. What do you have over them that God is able to show such favoritism/partiality? Okay --- point blank question:
How do you know that you are a FIFTEENER (Luke8:15), and not a THIRTEENER (Lk8:13) who only THINKS he's saved but WILL fall away some day (proving unelection!).

How can you know which you are? The thirteeners received the word with JOY and BELIEVED! What was the difference between the thirteeners, and the fifteeners? Why did God want ONE, and not the OTHER? Please tell me how God can be "holy" and ordain/purpose/predestine the vast majority to sin and Hell. No disrespect meant, I'd like to understand how you perceive that.
I've asked you some very pointed questions, which should make you seriously re-examine your beliefs; there is no crime in anyone making any of us re-examine our beliefs. The only crime would be to stop short of a full examination.

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on the question in red.

I will attempt to get to these later if I have time. You seem to be an expert of asking questions but you never answer any of them. Does the bible not also state that God will have mercy on who he wants to have mercy? Remember, I am on record quoting the end of Romans 11 several times. I fully acknowledge that Paul who was showed things by Jesus personally, knows far more then I will ever know and understand and even Paul talks about a limit in Chapter 11. Then Peter when referencing Paul's writings calls them difficult to understand. Are you trying to tell me that your theology is so sound that unlike Peter you have no trouble putting everything together?

I will attempt to get at some of your questions later but I think you are simply ignoring the verses/concepts/context of the passages that I draw my conclusions from and simply running to the ones that you know are tough for me to answer. I can google: "bible passages that prove Calvinism wrong" and come up with all your points. So what? I can also google the same thing about arminianism and get a list of verses that you will find impossible answering in the way I can phrase the question or you can simply dodge them... Are you truly open to what I think on the matter or are you just itching to shoot everything down with a list of scripture that anyone with google and reference and throw into the mix?

I believe the truth lies between "Calvinism" and "Armenianism" but I don't believe God's sovereign will is up for debate. God is either sovereign or he isn't, God can't choose to set aside a sovereign will but still claim to be sovereign because it was a choice he made. Just like I don't get to claim that I am employed but then if I quit on my own free-will (not forced out) I can still claim to be employed because it was my choice. No, I am either employed or I am not. God is either sovereign or he isn't. If God chooses to not be sovereign (which I believe to be unbiblical) then he is not sovereign.