My opinion is irrelevant --- what does Scripture say?
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these; as you do you will save yourselves..." 1Tim4:16
Whose choice is "perseverance-in-salvation" in that verse?
"Abide in Him, so that when He appears we ...not shrink in shame at His coming (be found in sin)". 1Jn2:28
Whose choice is it to abide in Jesus, or to abide in sin (therefore shrink-in-shame before Jesus) in that verse?
"Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God". Jude20-21.
Whose choice is it to "keep ourselves in His love" there?
"Therefore (against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast; as long as you practice these things you will not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates of the kingdom will BE provided!" 2Pet1:5-11
Whose choice is "diligence-in-salvation" in Peter's words?
With respect, I could go on citing literally dozens of identical verses; but unless and until these verses are answered, the issue will never be resolved. Are you willing to answer them? Also --- all the verses about "being-deceived-from-Jesus" (of which, the 1Jn2:26-28 is a clear one!) must also be answered. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Cor11:3. Can we be deceived-away-from-Jesus, or do we have to remove these verses from our Bibles?
I'm not understanding what you mean; salvation is the consequence of our own faith, 1Pet1:9. That is why Paul wrote in Romans1:17 "from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith" --- what if faith can turn and become faithlessness? Have you considered 2Tim2:11-13?
And repeating what was stated before, who's 'owns' your salvation, you or Christ?
"If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
(But!) If we deny Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!); if we are faithless He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself."
If we died and if we endure, we will reign with Christ (will be saved); but if we deny Him and are faithless, we will NOT reign with Him and He WILL deny us before God and we will NOT receive eternal life! How can we change Paul's clear words?
Not works at all -- you have never said "works-salvation", and neither have I.
For if you answer Man, then it's works that are counted as both surety and owner.
No; again, yours or my opinion doesn't matter --- look at what Paul said:
If you say Christ, then His work covers; His work redeems. I hold to the later, you above are proclaiming the former.
"I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (abide in Jesus' teachings!) ...guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure (of eternal life!) that has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14.
Abiding-in-Jesus-and-His-teachings, is not "works-salvation"! It is "abiding in Christ and His teachings", it is "Persevering in faith"! We cannot throw away 1Tim4:16, nor 1Jn2:26-28, nor 2Pet3:17, nor Jude20-21, nor 2Pet1:5-11, nor Col2:6-8 nor Eph4:22-24 nor 1Cor9:25-27 nor 2Cor13:5 nor 2Cor11:3 nor Col1:21-23 nor 1Tim4:1 nor Heb3:12-14 nor Heb4:11 nor Heb6:11-12 nor 1Tim6:10 & 20-21 nor DOZENS of identical passages!
In all the verses we just read --- whose choice is it to "continue in Christ and in salvation"? How do you answer these verses? 2Tim2:11-13 --- two very possible positions are advanced, one saved and one unsaved. How do you make the "unsaved", impossible? "Self-examination" --- 2Cor13:5 is identical in concept to 2Pet1:5-11; we are to test ourselves to see if we are in Christ. It uses the same "adokimos-disqualified" as 1Cor9:25-27 uses, where we're admonished to "race so as to win the IMMORTAL CROWN (eternal life!)". Then Paul says his OWN position could ALSO be "adokimos-disqualified/unapproved"! Can anyone deny "fallible salvation", in Paul's own words?
The earmarks, the self examination of salvation --- are that of Love of God; Love for thy Neighbor. If one is saved, he will know and be known by these two things... and through these two, all other things flow.... including obedience... Thus obedience does not save or hold one as saved, obedience is an outflow from being saved.
What does that mean? True that there is only one Savior --- yet, in 1Tim4:16 we "save ourselves", in that we participate in salvation by our faith! "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!" 1Pet1:9!
Nothing more...nothing less. the Catch 22 that John writes in 1 John is.... don't sin : if you say you don't sin, you are a liar... again behaviors of a true christian, not works of salvation to confirm ones saved position... For we do not own title to our salvation, Jesus does.
Have you considered the whole letter of Galatians? The audience "began in the Spirit" (3:3), they were "KNOWN by God" (4:9), they were "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7); but by turning back to weak/worthless things (works, 4:9) to be enslaved all over again, they became SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE! 5:4! Can anyone make "became fallen from grace", into "NOT became fallen from grace"?
For you --- when you assure me that you love Him completely, and rejoice in His presence, then my heart is at peace about you. But what if you can be deceived tomorrow? Suppose we never come to agreement, but agree-to-disagree and lay aside the discussion to fellowship together. Then suppose you face some great temptation in the future; suppose something we discussed comes back to your memory and strengthens you, that you stand. My life will have been a success for the strength that God gave you through me, and I will have won YOU as a brother forever.
So by my calling to faith, I have been given the wisdom of God to hear, believe and respond through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that day my life changed from death unto life.... And in over 40 years of walking in the works He has prepared for me to walk in, give Him all the Glory for the great things He has done in my life --- I have His surety of Hope, through His Spirit within me that I am His forever.... My obedience comes from His teaching and His correcting and His guiding, and His showing, and His protecting, and His holding me from the death of my old self to the life in Christ. My obedience doesn't earn, it even doesn't show my salvation... for it should show my Love for Him, and for His Glory!!!
I will joyfully second your "Amen". And I look forward to your understanding of all these verses which teach the same thing. My desire is NEVER to damage you or hinder your walk with Jesus; but rather to show you something in Scripture you have not considered before.
As I type this, all I want to do is shout out to the Lord.... Praise God! Can I have an Amen!
Evil always strives to lure us away from Jesus. Paul said in 2Cor11:3 we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve was! Shall we turn a cold shoulder to all these warnings and admonitions? Never! For they are ALSO our brothers, those who walked with Jesus, and they are equally concerned for OUR continuance in Christ ans salvation! The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter after chapter, is warning against "falling-from-salvation". The entire letter of Galatians is. And so are 2Peter and James. What shall we do with their words? What is the interpretation that proposes "you-can't-fall", in the face of their words?
"Do not harden your hearts. Take care, brethren, lest your hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. We are Christ's house IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." Heb3:6-14!