Calvinism / pre-destination

[percho]

I was wondering what people thought about this doctrine. I find it quite disturbing, as it appears to implie that there is no such thing as free will. Some people are chosen, pre-destined to be saved, whereas others are not. Things like irresistible grace I just cannot get my head around. I think it is at least partly because I am very new to all this, and envy some people their doctrinal certainty. I am not yet in that place of full assurance.

That is the reason you need to believe and trust in God for your salvation. If you had only one command just as one would tell his child, Don't touch that it will burn. You have free will. How long will you live before you by your free will, will touch?

You would have no hope.

"Hope is a good thing." Andy Dufresne

[Redeemed by Grace]

The Matthew 24 illustration, to me, it is putting the cart before the horse.... What I'd like to suggest is to understand the difference between someone choosing the Gospel and believes to some who understands the Gospel and believes. May seem a bit trite, but the difference is huge.

I submit that everyone's choice has a bit of relativity to being taught and by their environmental surroundings; for that one year old who didn't know the difference between their left or right hand may have 'picked' A over B based on closeness or something they knew being 1 years old, and that as A was a ball and B was a squeeze toy, thus learned one rolled, the other squeaked. Now with that experience and acquired understanding, the next time they choose, will make a decision based on different criteria and to a point, a need. Thus choice is comparative, resulting in variability, is learned, can be adaptable.


In my effort to keep it brief, I posted this a while back within another thread here and pulling it out now to use again, cause it saves me some typing, LOL, but I still see this fitting. This was in reply to another poster who was declaring that the invitation to all who thirst within Revelation was a call by God for man to choose salvation. [Again choice is after wisdom, not before... and we are either taught by man to have wisdom of man, or we are taught by God and have the wisdom of God to understand the gospel, then pick to A over B.

//

I don't see the Gospel as a choice but as an invitation. I don't see the comparative to what not thirsty offers. I see a condition, one who is thirsty, and here meaning for righteousness, that life giving water is available without cost. So the 'choice' is being implied, but not stated... the condition is being thirsty, the invitation is to come. And the "let the one who is..." is permissive, so there is no restrictions to the invitation to those who thirst.

You are in the desert, and you travel for many miles without water, and you thirst. Now over the horizon, you see a sign... it states Oasis ahead... come... and as you approach the sign - you see that it is real and you also can see the Oasis off to the west.

What are you going to do? Make a choice and go east? I don't think so. The condition of thirst being satisfied is what you want...

Now if you were traveling the same route, and you were in an air conditioned car, and you had coolers upon coolers of water, and you came upon that same sign... would you go west. Now you have a choice, 'cause you can compare it to the bird of your hand in having all the water you want right then and there to the 2 birds that are off in the horizon in the desert, having something you already have.

The man with the thirst doesn't decide, he responds. The man having what he needs, decides.


Jesus didn't come to save the spiritually righteous or the healthy, He came to those who are poor, the lost, the sickly and spiritually needy.

//

Thus man plans his ways.... he chooses.... he does.... yet without divine intervention, his works of faith are his works of faith


Thus I also stated within that same thread that I also see applying...

For a moment, erase the word chose/choose/choice for your vocabulary.

Salvation, is wisdom, God's wisdom - that comes to a man's heart and when it does - he then sees clearly and says ah ha - yes, I understand. For many a time a man will sit under the teaching of the gospel and nothing happens and then one day, he doesn't chose, he understands. And the only way understanding comes is via the calling of God to the heart. So no choice, just divine wisdom bestowed, and in that holy grace - faith, and repentance, and humility, and love


2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Colossians 1:9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.


It's not so much a choice of the will but of Godly wisdom given in calling out those who are to believe.

For His glory...

[Gadgeteer]

That is the reason you need to believe and trust in God for your salvation. If you had only one command just as one would tell his child, Don't touch that it will burn. You have free will. How long will you live before you by your free will, will touch?

You would have no hope.

"Hope is a good thing." Andy Dufresne

Hi, "Percho".

What hope does the vast majority of people have, under "predestined-salvation"?
Do they have any chance?
Do they have any hope?
Is Jehovah the "God of Love" for them?

Thanx in advance for your thoughts.

[Gadgeteer]

The Matthew 24 illustration, to me, it is putting the cart before the horse....

What's critical in Matthew24:24, is whether "elect" can be led astray, or not. "Ei dunatos" is taken by Calvinists (and ES proponents) as "it-is-not-possible"; but ei dunatos plainly asserts "it is possible" in Acts20:16. So to continue on OSAS with just this one verse (Matt24:24), "is possible" somehow has to become "not possible".

What I'd like to suggest is to understand the difference between someone choosing the Gospel and believes to some who understands the Gospel and believes. May seem a bit trite, but the difference is huge.

Under "Calvinism" is the perception of two callings -- one EFFECTUAL, one INEFFECTUAL. The general calling is deemed ineffectual, because "God does not equip the unelect to HEAR/UNDERSTAND it". Nowhere in Scripture are "two callings", nowhere is God insincere (which by definition is a "calling that He does not equip most to answer"). I've heard of an analogy of a parent calling a deaf child in for lunch, but choosing not to remote-control turn on the child's hearing aid; the call is ineffectual, the child goes hungry, the parent is a hypocrite.

So too is God hypocritical to call people that He knows He has not equipped to answer. Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "unregenerate men cannot understand the Gospel and believe to salvation". Especially not in 1Cor2:14...

I submit that everyone's choice has a bit of relativity to being taught and by their environmental surroundings; for that one year old who didn't know the difference between their left or right hand may have 'picked' A over B based on closeness or something they knew being 1 years old, and that as A was a ball and B was a squeeze toy, thus learned one rolled, the other squeaked.

In Romans1 are the words "God ...made evident to them". This reflects Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10, where "the word of faith" is IN men's hearts and mouths --- both those who CAN confess and believe and be saved, and those who turn away and perish.

Thus, every man has been "enabled/equipped" to answer. The call is effective for everyone.

Now with that experience and acquired understanding, the next time they choose, will make a decision based on different criteria and to a point, a need. Thus choice is comparative, resulting in variability, is learned, can be adaptable.

Even never having heard the name of Jesus, (Indians, Eskimos, Aborigines), a person can seek the Creator as much as he can understand; seeking the Creator he will find Jesus. See Romans1:19-20!

In my effort to keep it brief, I posted this a while back within another thread here and pulling it out now to use again, cause it saves me some typing, LOL, but I still see this fitting. This was in reply to another poster who was declaring that the invitation to all who thirst within Revelation was a call by God for man to choose salvation. [Again choice is after wisdom, not before... and we are either taught by man to have wisdom of man, or we are taught by God and have the wisdom of God to understand the gospel, then pick to A over B.

What is at issue is "exclusivity". Does God reveal Himself to a FEW? Does He enable only a FEW to respond?

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

What is the context of Matt22:14? "Many", is everyone in sight! And "chosen", are those who came and changed clothes. So yes it is a call by God for man to choose salvation!

"I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him."

We are commanded to love God (Matt22:37); it is a command He expects every person to obey, a command also for all men everywhere to repent (Acts17:31). Acts17 boldly states that God determines man's times and places so that they MIGHT seek God and find Him, having provided evidence to all men by Jesus' resurrection.

Thus man plans his ways.... he chooses.... he does.... yet without divine intervention, his works of faith are his works of faith

Calvinists try to assert "free will --- but only free as far as his NATURE allows; an unelected unregenerated man always WILLS to sin and rebel, but a regenerated man always WILLS to believe and be saved".

How then does a sovereignly regenerated man SIN? 1Jn1:8 and 1Cor10:13 plainly state that God gives us a choice, and PERMITS us to sin or not!

How does God permit anything? He cannot, if "predestined-salvation" was the theme.

Thus I also stated within that same thread that I also see applying...

I'll make new posts on those; I think I've thrown you some strong things, I'm excited looking forward to your thoughts.

[Gadgeteer]

I don't see the Gospel as a choice but as an invitation.

What's the difference? In Matthew22:2-14, who were "invited"? Did they all have a choice?

I don't see the comparative to what "not-thirsty" offers. I see a condition, one who is thirsty, and here meaning for righteousness, that life-giving water is available without cost. So the 'choice' is being implied, but not stated... the condition is being thirsty, the invitation is to come. And the "let the one who is..." is permissive, so there is no restrictions to the invitation to those who thirst.

Do you perceive that God makes some-few-elect, "thirsty"?

You are in the desert, and you travel for many miles without water, and you thirst. Now over the horizon, you see a sign... it states Oasis ahead... come... and as you approach the sign - you see that it is real and you also can see the Oasis off to the west.

What are you going to do? Make a choice and go east? I don't think so. The condition of thirst being satisfied is what you want...

Now if you were traveling the same route, and you were in an air conditioned car, and you had coolers upon coolers of water, and you came upon that same sign... would you go west. Now you have a choice, 'cause you can compare it to the bird of your hand in having all the water you want right then and there to the 2 birds that are off in the horizon in the desert, having something you already have.

The man with the thirst doesn't decide, he responds. The man having what he needs, decides.

The whole issue is "who thirsts"? Or more specifically, "to whom is it given to understand the Gospel"? The principle of persuasion is clear in Scripture; stated in Acts16:28-29, the basis for John's writing in Jn20:31, and the principle of "believe-because-of-seeing" in Jn20:29 and Jn10:38. It is what happened in Acts2:37 --- Peter told them that they've been waiting all this time for the Messiah, and "well He came but you KILLED Him!" Peter's words persuaded them --- they were "pierced to the heart", or "smitten in conscience" --- and believed!

Jesus didn't come to save the spiritually righteous or the healthy, He came to those who are poor, the lost, the sickly and spiritually needy.

VERY excellent quote --- Matt9:12-13. But think about what this means --- under "predestination", Jesus coming for the unregenerate is useless, they cannot respond. And for those who have been monergistically-regenerated, they are righteous already and do not NEED Jesus to come for them. There is no connection between "monergistic-regeneration" and the Cross!

But Scripture says Jesus CAME for the lost sinners; it is conviction and belief that receives Christ and RECEIVES the Spirit's regeneration!

[Gadgeteer]

For a moment, erase the word chose/choose/choice for your vocabulary.

Salvation, is wisdom, God's wisdom - that comes to a man's heart and when it does - he then sees clearly and says ah ha - yes, I understand. For many a time a man will sit under the teaching of the gospel and nothing happens and then one day, he doesn't chose, he understands. And the only way understanding comes is via the calling of God to the heart. So no choice, just divine wisdom bestowed, and in that holy grace - faith, and repentance, and humility, and love

Where can "unenlightened men" not understand the Gospel? The only verse thought to support this is 1Cor2:14. But read the context --- verses 9-15. The THINGS of the Spirit, which natural (perhaps means "unregenerate") men cannot understand, are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. Therefore the "things" cannot include saving-faith, because one has to believe and be saved and receive the Spirit BEFORE those things are revealed! Those "things" are the deeper things of the Spirit that are revealed to believers; parable meanings for instance --- see Matt13:11-17. To he who HAS, the deeper meanings are given. What do they have, "RbG"? The unsaved have nothing; he who has salvation also receives the deeper spiritual meanings, as Peter understood Jesus' Messiahship (a deeper meaning!) in Matt16:17. (That's also what's happening in John10:26-28 --- the Jews did not believe Jesus' Messiahship because they didn't first believe God or Jesus).

2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Why does Jesus blast the Jews for studying Scripture but refusing to believe, in John5:39-47? Is there anything in Jesus' words that makes us think the Jews could NOT understand, if they chose?

1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

You're citing one of the "Founding Passages" for Calvinism; what is predestined here --- us? Or Jesus? Please consider that JESUS is predestined (1Pet1:20-21), and the plan of salvation is predestined --- bestowed on us in the beloved. Jesus was foreknown and has appeared now for the sake of we who are believers.

Note that "adoption", is by the received Spirit in Romans8:15; that denotes belief. "Adoption" is "become born again" is "become begotten of God" is "become sons"; it is by receiving Jesus, Jn1:12. The next verse (Jn1:13) says the begottenness itself is nothing of men but all of God, but becoming begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus.

Please look at Romans5:17-21; condemnation came to all men, so too justification came to all men --- and those WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who receive the gift of righteousness shall reign with Christ (shall be saved).

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

You stopped one verse too soon; verse 13 states we were sealed by the Spirit after belief.

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Colossians 1:9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

But Calvinism proposes wisdom is given to an unregenerated man BEFORE asking.

That's the problem --- there is no "exclusive enabling", there is no "selective calling"; all are called, all can answer.

It's not so much a choice of the will but of Godly wisdom given in calling out those who are to believe.

This is exactly what I've been addressing --- an "exclusive effective calling for the FEW PREDESTINED". And that principle is not in Scripture. Jesus said, "If ANYONE is willing to do His will" --- Jn7:17.

This is why the issue is so critically important --- this "believing and receiving Jesus", is not a one-time-deal! It is DAILY. Look what Paul says about regeneration:

"In regard to your former way of life, NOW LAY aside your old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Eph4:22-24.

Is there anything in that which sounds like a "done deal"? No! It's a constant thing, which is to day we "abide in Christ SO THAT we not shrink in shame (from sin) at His return" (1Jn2:26-28), we "build ourselves in holy faith and keep ourselves in His love" (Jude20-21).

It is Col2:6-8, WALK in Christ guarding ourselves against deception-away-from-Him!

Look at your signature:

"Enter by the Narrow Gate...
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
... there are few who find it."

Please look up "find" in the Greek --- it's "heurisko", find by diligently seeking. Per "Predestined-Salvation", men do not find salvation by diligently seeking, salvation finds THEM. Faith comes to THEM, rather then them coming to God BY faith.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Heb11:6.

Those who seek, find; even as Jeremiah29:11-13 says. Seek and you shall find, Matt7:7 --- and that is speaking salvationally.

I've given you quite a bit to think about; all hand-typed (I can type pretty fast!). Please look up the associated verses to see if I'm "all wet", or accurate. I think you'll find it impossible to deny the idea of "persuasion", as Paul tried to persuade Agrippa in Acts26, or as John persuades everyone in 20:31. Nor can it be denied that we can "believe-because-of-seeing", John10:38 and Jn20:29.

Yes, it's a choice, and an invitation; God loved the WORLD, not "just a few of 'em". It grieves God's heart when someone chooses to perish, He really cries over them. The lost HAVE HOPE --- an infinite hope and infinite love, if they but reach out and take His kind and gracious hand, and let Him pull them from the mire they're sinking into!

Receive Him --- not just once, but every day! Walk in Him! Abide in Him! Let His praises flow from your lips! Lift His name above all in the Universe, for He is worthy; and lift Him every day! Let Him be your first thoughts on awakening, and your last thoughts as you fall asleep safe in His arms! For He is faithful and will never leave us nor forsake us. He guards what we entrust to Him, and by the Spirit's power we guard the treasure of eternal life that He entrusts to us! (2Tim1:14-16!!!)

[keyzer soze]

[/color]

What is the context of Matt22:14? "Many", is everyone in sight! And "chosen", are those who came and changed clothes. So yes it is a call by God for man to choose salvation!

"I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him."

We are commanded to love God (Matt22:37); it is a command He expects every person to obey, a command also for all men everywhere to repent (Acts17:31). Acts17 boldly states that God determines man's times and places so that they MIGHT seek God and find Him, having provided evidence to all men by Jesus' resurrection.

So are you suggesting that God calls/reveals Himself equally to all of humanity? No human ever has more revealed to him then another? How about Paul? How about "doubting" Thomas?

What does this passage mean then? Is Jesus not claiming that some have had more revealed to them than others? And is he not also stating that had some had more they would have turned and repented? How or why can Jesus claim that some will be judged harsher if God calls all equally to him?

20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

[Gadgeteer]

So are you suggesting that God calls/reveals Himself equally to all of humanity?

God is revealed to all men, Keyzer.

"That which is known about God is evident in them, because God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood thorugh what has been made, so they are without excuse." Rom1:19-20.

God can be known through what He has made.
Now -- "equally"? No.

"How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans10:14.

Romans10:14 is not dictate (that is, it does not say "they CANNOT believe without preachers"), it is pragmatic; people are more likely to believe if we preach to them. Jude 23 says "Save others, snatching them from the fire" --- we save them by telling them of Jesus. We influence who is saved! And in no way can we influence anyone's salvation if it's all predestined!!!

Note that we can also influence salvation negatively -- "do not DESTROY your brother, for whom Christ died"! Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11!

No human ever has more revealed to him then another?

What about all the Indians and Eskimos and Aborigines, before the New World was discovered? Did God conveniently not predestine any of them?

How about Paul?

Paul was a special case; Paul was a learned man, who thought he was following God. What Jesus revealed to him outside Damascus, was: "No, you're not helping Me."

How about "doubting" Thomas?

Excellent point --- Thomas believed because of seeing (not because God said so!), and Jesus told Thomas that "unseen belief is GREATER than seen belief"! (Jn20:29)

How can unseen belief be greater than seen belief, if all belief is God-wrought? Can't be. Make sense?

What does this passage mean then? Is Jesus not claiming that some have had more revealed to them than others?

See if you can deny what I perceive in John10:38 --- they can BELIEVE, just by looking at what Jesus DID. Jesus healed the sick, fed the 3000, fed the 5000, turned water into wine, walked on water, and raised the dead. Can anyone else but GOD do all that? No! They could believe just by looking at what He did, but unseen belief is greater!

And is he not also stating that had some had more they would have turned and repented? How or why can Jesus claim that some will be judged harsher if God calls all equally to him?

20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

VERY excellent citation, fits perfectly into out discussion --- well done! :-)

Had they seen, they would have repented. Why weren't they able to see? Because they lived hundreds of years before Jesus; and Jesus could only be born in one time. But try to fit "they-woulda-believed", into "God-decides-belief" --- you can't! There can only be one message Jesus is teaching to His Chorazin and Bethaida and Capernaum listeners --- "you will be judged more harshly because you are more willfully unbelieving than they were!"

Could Jesus have meant anything else? "They didn't see, that was long ago; they would have repented. YOU SEE, but you still refuse to repent --- you're in serious trouble for your rebellion!"

"He will judge the world ...having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead." Acts17:31.

"He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, BECAUSE he has not believed in the witness God bore of His Son." 1Jn5:10.

"He who does not believe is condemned already, BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jn3:18.

The only thing that causes destruction in Hell, is willful unbelief; the only thing that causes salvation, is willful belief. And not just BEGINNING belief, but also ENDING belief (Rm1:17!).

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; as you do you will save yourselves...." 1Tim4:16.

[John146]

Who wrote the book of Genesis? God or Moses?

God inspired Moses to write it.

In the same way that I see the bible as being BOTH God breathed and written by man I see man having free-will and God sovereign will going hand in hand.

Could Moses have written any word differently?

Probably, as long as the message remained the same.

Did Moses or any of the other authors have any free-will in writing the bible? Did they use their own personal memories, experiences or personality in writing the bible?

Sure.

Did God see to it that it was written exactly as He wanted it written?

Yes. At least as far as ensuring that the message He wanted to send was there. It's not as if there was only one way to write down the message (not as if He had to directly inspire every word). As long as what they wrote conveyed the message that God inspired them to give that is what matters.

I see these as being in conflict in the same way as I see free-will and sovereign will in conflict but I trust both to be true.

Why do you see a conflict with that?

Anyway, you believe that God allows man to make choices that are entirely his own without God making them for him, right? Why would this not extend out to man having the choice of whether or not to put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved? Why do you not believe that God would give man that kind of freedom to choose? You acknowledge that He gives man the freedom to choose to some extent, so why not to that extent?

[John146]

Excellent point --- Thomas believed because of seeing (not because God said so!), and Jesus told Thomas that "unseen belief is GREATER than seen belief"! (Jn20:29)

How can unseen belief be greater than seen belief, if all belief is God-wrought? Can't be. Make sense?

Speaking of excellent points, you made an excellent point here. If the faith that is required for salvation came entirely from God then there would not be different levels of faith and it would all be the same level of faith, I would think. Why would God give one person a little faith and another much faith? He would give everyone whatever amount of faith is necessary for salvation if it was entirely up to Him, I would think. Also, why would Jesus have marveled at the faith of the centurion if his faith was given to him by God? That wouldn't make any sense. If it was given to him by God it would have come as no surprise to Jesus.

Matt 8:8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[John146]

What's the difference? In Matthew22:2-14, who were "invited"? Did they all have a choice?

Of course. It should be obvious that a person has to choose to either accept or reject an invitation. So, Matthew 22 clearly teaches that salvation is offered to people who are then required to choose how to respond to that offer rather than salvation arbitrarily being given to people. But Calvinism (or whatever someone wants to call it) does not teach that.

[keyzer soze]

God inspired Moses to write it.

Probably, as long as the message remained the same.

Sure.

Yes.

Why do you see a conflict with that?

Anyway, you believe that God allows man to make choices that are entirely his own without God making them for him, right? Why would this not extend out to man having the choice of whether or not to put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved? Why do you not believe that God would give man that kind of freedom to choose? You acknowledge that He gives man the freedom to choose to some extent, so why not to that extent?

I don't have any conflict, I thought you had conflict with my view that man has free-will to choose (even how or what to put in the bible) and God has sovereignty over all choices, including what was written down and included in the bible. So if man's free-will to choose God, "salvation", is in conflict with God's sovereign will (which is what I thought you said to my point a few pages back), then I see the same conflict with the writings of scripture...

[keyzer soze]

Speaking of excellent points, you made an excellent point here. If the faith that is required for salvation came entirely from God then there would not be different levels of faith and it would all be the same level of faith, I would think. Why would God give one person a little faith and another much faith? He would give everyone whatever amount of faith is necessary for salvation if it was entirely up to Him, I would think. Also, why would Jesus have marveled at the faith of the centurion if his faith was given to him by God? That wouldn't make any sense. If it was given to him by God it would have come as no surprise to Jesus.

Matt 8:8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why does God have to give out faith equally? Did he create everything else equally? Did He create the angels equally? Since when does God create things equally? I look around the world and I see no proof that if something is from God it should be equal in any way. I believe God likes diversity.

[Redeemed by Grace]

What's critical in Matthew24:24, is whether "elect" can be led astray, or not. "Ei dunatos" is taken by Calvinists (and ES proponents) as "it-is-not-possible"; but ei dunatos plainly asserts "it is possible" in Acts20:16.

There is that label.... I'm not defending Calvinism and was hoping we'd both agree to exegesis the biblical text. Matthew 24 is very dear to my heart, for it warns to the times of the end of the age and to His return... By context, Jesus pretty clearly gives actions as to what while happen and in sequence in those days. The way vs 24 is written Jesus is telling the Disciples in literal terms to a hypothetical situation for emphasis, that if God didn't intervene, there would be no one left alive, in particular, the Christians of that day... Not wanting to take an eschatological rabbit trail, I'll just say grammatically, it fits well as emphasis as if it will be so bad, that it could if God would allow it to it completion.

So to continue on OSAS with just this one verse (Matt24:24), "is possible" somehow has to become "not possible". Under "Calvinism" is the perception of two callings -- one EFFECTUAL, one INEFFECTUAL. The general calling is deemed ineffectual, because "God does not equip the unelect to HEAR/UNDERSTAND it". Nowhere in Scripture are "two callings", nowhere is God insincere (which by definition is a "calling that He does not equip most to answer"). I've heard of an analogy of a parent calling a deaf child in for lunch, but choosing not to remote-control turn on the child's hearing aid; the call is ineffectual, the child goes hungry, the parent is a hypocrite.

Sigh... I'm probably going to pull back if we continue down this Calvinistic path... we must be able to discuss scriptures without bring into the fold a predisposition and determination as to what folks believe and don't believe. My point is that I do not hold to the 2 call theory... I subscribe that all who will believe have been purposed by God before the world began. God doesn't choose, nor does He wait upon man to decide. Before we go further, there are many things a man does not choose, IE his parents, his sex, his location on this earth in time and in geography. His birth defect if he has one, his future as to the day of next Tuesday, 10 years from today... A man's salvation is not of the ownership of himself, but he is a procession of God.... for we have been bought with a price... For a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.

So too is God hypocritical to call people that He knows He has not equipped to answer. Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "unregenerate men cannot understand the Gospel and believe to salvation". Especially not in 1Cor2:14... In Romans1 are the words "God ...made evident to them". This reflects Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10, where "the word of faith" is IN men's hearts and mouths --- both those who CAN confess and believe and be saved, and those who turn away and perish.

I see this as a question never asked being asked until now and looks like it is being debated amongst yourself... For as a man builds with wood and uses some for framing and some for braces, and some for veneer, and some for polish, the open call of the Gospel is just that, wide open. But it's not choice that compels a man to believe, but of need. A carpenter discerns between his wood and uses those pieces as he deems appropriate. It be foolish for him to use choice 2 for grade 1, or glue scraps to behave as one piece, for he has a need for sense and for order. God, as the great I Am, is far more than man and He does what He does, both reveal to us though His word, and to other things He has not yet revealed or would reveal. Man's knowledge is acquired and learned... God's is given to those who ask for it.

Thus, every man has been "enabled/equipped" to answer. The call is effective for everyone. Even never having heard the name of Jesus, (Indians, Eskimos, Aborigines), a person can seek the Creator as much as he can understand; seeking the Creator he will find Jesus. See Romans1:19-20!
What is at issue is "exclusivity". Does God reveal Himself to a FEW? Does He enable only a FEW to respond?

I don't believe this is how it works... I see God not deciding, not learning, not wavering... but purposing. Through His eyes and not mans, He has created all things for His good pleasure. And He has also allowed sin into His creation to work to the council of His will. He reveals Himself in a temporal way to all men, so that every man can live in relative order, to a degree. But to those He has purposed as joint heirs, He foreknew, and thus called to the time of our wisdom of salvation, somewhere along the timeline of our individual lives.


Let me ask you this... Do you see God working withing your heart before or after you 'chose' to believe? Or maybe not at all? Those are three choice to have, which one best fits your circumstance?

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

What is the context of Matt22:14? "Many", is everyone in sight! And "chosen", are those who came and changed clothes. So yes it is a call by God for man to choose salvation!

"I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him."

We are commanded to love God (Matt22:37); it is a command He expects every person to obey, a command also for all men everywhere to repent (Acts17:31). Acts17 boldly states that God determines man's times and places so that they MIGHT seek God and find Him, having provided evidence to all men by Jesus' resurrection.
Calvinists try to assert "free will --- but only free as far as his NATURE allows; an unelected unregenerated man always WILLS to sin and rebel, but a regenerated man always WILLS to believe and be saved".

How then does a sovereignly regenerated man SIN? 1Jn1:8 and 1Cor10:13 plainly state that God gives us a choice, and PERMITS us to sin or not!

How does God permit anything? He cannot, if "predestined-salvation" was the theme.
I'll make new posts on those; I think I've thrown you some strong things, I'm excited looking forward to your thoughts.

Brother, ya need to keep the focus to one point instead or many or we will quickly lose each other and the level of excitability will rise because we will say we missed something of each other

[Gadgeteer]

You believe that God allows man to make choices that are entirely his own without God making them for him, right? Why would this not extend out to man having the choice of whether or not to put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved? Why do you not believe that God would give man that kind of freedom to choose? You acknowledge that He gives man the freedom to choose to some extent, so why not to that extent?

1Corinthians10:12-13 is one of the most powerful statements against "predestined-salvation". God cannot permit anything under "sovereign predestination" --- but clearly we're permitted to sin. God provides a gracious escape from temptation, and allows us to choose His escape, or to choose sin.

How can one who is "in Christ a new creation, the old has passed away all has become new", sin?

If salvation is "Christ-in-you", and the Spirit also indwelling, what happens when we sin? Do Jesus and the Spirit participate in our sins? How does that work?