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Thread: Calvinism / pre-destination

  1. #76
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    1Corinthians10:12-13 is one of the most powerful statements against "predestined-salvation". God cannot permit anything under "sovereign predestination" --- but clearly we're permitted to sin. God provides a gracious escape from temptation, and allows us to choose His escape, or to choose sin.

    How can one who is "in Christ a new creation, the old has passed away all has become new", sin?

    So are you advocating that you no longer sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    If salvation is "Christ-in-you", and the Spirit also indwelling, what happens when we sin? Do Jesus and the Spirit participate in our sins? How does that work?

    Are you asking a rhetorical question or a serious one?
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


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    The New American Standard Bibleョ,
    Copyright ゥ 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  2. #77

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Speaking of excellent points, you made an excellent point here. If the faith that is required for salvation came entirely from God then there would not be different levels of faith and it would all be the same level of faith, I would think. Why would God give one person a little faith and another much faith?
    Right. And --- why would He want people to NOT be believers for ANY part of their lives? Why aren't the "predestined", believers from early childhood? God hates sin, right?
    He would give everyone whatever amount of faith is necessary for salvation if it was entirely up to Him, I would think. Also, why would Jesus have marveled at the faith of the centurion if his faith was given to him by God? That wouldn't make any sense. If it was given to him by God it would have come as no surprise to Jesus.

    Matt 8:8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    Excellent point! That verse makes no sense under a "predestined/gifted-faith" view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    What's the difference? In Matthew22:2-14, who were "invited"? Did they all have a choice?
    Of course. It should be obvious that a person has to choose to either accept or reject an invitation. So, Matthew 22 clearly teaches that salvation is offered to people who are then required to choose how to respond to that offer rather than salvation arbitrarily being given to people. But Calvinism (or whatever someone wants to call it) does not teach that.
    What's clear in Jesus' story (which is a clear illustration of salvation!), is that:
    1. No one was left out; first the Jews were invited, they refused; then everyone else.
    2. Of those who attended the feast or not, each decided for himself; even Mr. Dirty-Clothes.
    3. There is no difference at all between the "call-to-the-came", and the "call-to-the-refused".
    4. Many truly-called, decided NOT to be "chosen".

  3. #78

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    There is that label.... I'm not defending Calvinism and was hoping we'd both agree to exegesis the biblical text.
    That's what I'm doing, "RbG". This is a "Calvinism" thread, so it's valid to say:
    "Calvinism believes this verse says xxxxxxx, but Scripture says yyyyyyy."
    Matthew 24 is very dear to my heart, for it warns to the times of the end of the age and to His return... By context, Jesus pretty clearly gives actions as to what while happen and in sequence in those days. The way vs 24 is written Jesus is telling the Disciples in literal terms to a hypothetical situation for emphasis, that if God didn't intervene, there would be no one left alive, in particular, the Christians of that day... Not wanting to take an eschatological rabbit trail, I'll just say grammatically, it fits well as emphasis as if it will be so bad, that it could if God would allow it to it completion.
    Yet, the question remains --- it is a question of "Greek words". Can the exact-same-Greek-words mean one thing in one passage, but mean the exact opposite in another?

    Have you ever discussed 2Pet2:20-22? It's the same issue; the exact same Greek words appear in 2Pet1:1-4, as in 2Pet2:20-22. "Escaped defilements/corruption through the epignosis-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus". The only difference is that chapter 1 uses "corruption", and also says "same faith as ours"; but can the exact same words mean "saved" in one chapter, but "never-saved" in the next?
    Sigh... I'm probably going to pull back if we continue down this Calvinistic path... we must be able to discuss scriptures without bring into the fold a predisposition and determination as to what folks believe and don't believe. My point is that I do not hold to the 2 call theory...
    I'm not arguing with you, "RbG". This thread is about Calvinism; I'm very familiar with all the verses used to support "predestined-salvation" --- so I quote a verse and say "They think it means xxxxxxx, but proper exegesis shows it means yyyyyyy".
    I subscribe that all who will believe have been purposed by God before the world began. God doesn't choose, nor does He wait upon man to decide.
    Now wait, I'm confused.
    聞 All who WILL believe, are purposed to believe by God.
    聞 God does not choose, nor does God wait for men to decide.

    ...so who chooses?
    Before we go further, there are many things a man does not choose, IE his parents, his sex, his location on this earth in time and in geography. His birth defect if he has one, his future as to the day of next Tuesday, 10 years from today... A man's salvation is not of the ownership of himself, but he is a procession of God.... for we have been bought with a price... For a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.
    Does a man have any part in whether he's saved or not?
    If you say "no", then how can you accommodate 1Tim4:16?
    If you say "no", then how can we save others, snatching them from the fire (Jude23)?
    If you say "no", then how can we DESTROY a brother-for-whom-Christ-died (Rom14:15)?

    If you say "YES", then we agree that God does not purpose anyone to believe; each makes a choice.

    What is your understanding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So too is God hypocritical to call people that He knows He has not equipped to answer. Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "unregenerate men cannot understand the Gospel and believe to salvation". Especially not in 1Cor2:14... In Romans1 are the words "God ...made evident to them". This reflects Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10, where "the word of faith" is IN men's hearts and mouths --- both those who CAN confess and believe and be saved, and those who turn away and perish.
    I see this as a question never asked being asked until now and looks like it is being debated amongst yourself... For as a man builds with wood and uses some for framing and some for braces, and some for veneer, and some for polish, the open call of the Gospel is just that, wide open. But it's not choice that compels a man to believe, but of need.
    What (who) decides the need? The issue is "predestination"; foundational is the idea that men cannot turn to God unless and until God makes their hearts new (before belief!). So --- can an unregenerated man understand the Gospel and believe to salvation?

    That's the central issue.
    A carpenter discerns between his wood and uses those pieces as he deems appropriate. It be foolish for him to use choice 2 for grade 1, or glue scraps to behave as one piece, for he has a need for sense and for order. God, as the great I Am, is far more than man and He does what He does, both reveal to us though His word, and to other things He has not yet revealed or would reveal. Man's knowledge is acquired and learned... God's is given to those who ask for it.
    What is happening in a man's heart when he asks for that knowledge? He's believing, right? One does not turn to God except by faith, does he?
    I don't believe this is how it works... I see God not deciding, not learning, not wavering... but purposing. Through His eyes and not man's, He has created all things for His good pleasure. And He has also allowed sin into His creation to work to the council of His will. He reveals Himself in a temporal way to all men, so that every man can live in relative order, to a degree. But to those He has purposed as joint heirs, He foreknew, and thus called to the time of our wisdom of salvation, somewhere along the timeline of our individual lives.
    You're still espousing basic Calvinism --- I'm sorry you don't like to use the term in discussion, but those are the principles you are advocating:

    聞 God purposes a few "select" to be saved; it's why they are created.
    聞 God purposes the REST to be sinful and to perish; it's why they are created.
    聞 God takes PLEASURE in the hopeless helpless destruction of the unelect.
    聞 The "predestined" are foreknown and they are the called; the rest are not called.

    That is basic Calvinism as it exists today. It conflicts Scripture, such as Ezk18:


    "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked (says the Lord God), rather than that they would repent and live?"



    God does not purpose anyone to be condemned, nor anyone to be saved; please tell me how you read Acts17:26-31, where God puts men when and where they can seek Him and find Him, tell me how God is "not far from anyone", and tell me how God can "command all men everywhere to repent". How does that passage fit in with what you just said (bulleted above)?
    Let me ask you this... Do you see God working withing your heart before or after you 'chose' to believe? Or maybe not at all? Those are three choices to have, which one best fits your circumstance?
    Before, during, AND after. But He works no less in each person's heart. As Romans2:6-8 eloquently states, each receives the eternity he chooses. Can't mean anything else, can it?
    Brother, ya need to keep the focus to one point instead or many or we will quickly lose each other and the level of excitability will rise because we will say we missed something of each other
    The central theme of Scripture is that God sets in front of us a choice. He knows about our sinful weak flesh, therefore He sent the Son to do what we could not (Rm8:3), and made it so that every last person has the option to enter within the veil and fellowship with Almighty God and Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does God "purpose anyone to perish", nor does He purpose anyone to live.

    You and I also have not yet discussed all the warnings against "falling-from-salvation". Can a truly-saved person, become unsaved? I can give you dozens of verses that say "yes".

    I look forward to your thoughts on how God purposes some men to believe, but God does not choose for them; and your thoughts especially on passages like Acts17:26-31.

    :-)

  4. #79

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    1Corinthians10:12-13 is one of the most powerful statements against "predestined-salvation". God cannot permit anything under "sovereign predestination" --- but clearly we're permitted to sin. God provides a gracious escape from temptation, and allows us to choose His escape, or to choose sin.

    How can one who is "in Christ a new creation, the old has passed away all has become new", sin?
    So are you advocating that you no longer sin?
    Let's discuss this, and see if we can come to agreement. :-)


    "If anyone be in Christ he is a new creation; the old has passed (is passing) away, behold all has become new (new things have come)." 2Cor5:17.

    "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1Jn3:6.

    "No one born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1Jn3:9


    Now --- this fits the concept of Jesus and the Spirit indwelling the believer; as He is in us, we cannot sin. But --- you and I do sin, John also says:


    "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us; (but) if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1:1:8-9.


    How does Scripture resolve this apparent conflict? Salvation is IN CHRIST --- and no one in Christ sins, he cannot sin; yet we do sin. What's the answer?

    The key is in the word "ABIDE". And that's the importance of the whole issue. We discussed Eph4:22-24, where we abide in regeneration, we daily lay aside the old sinful man (woman?) and put on the new man. We abide in Him, and in salvation!

    God does not want us to sin; yet we're given the choice, constantly -- 1Cor10:13 is clear. What happens to the indwelling Spirit and Savior when we turn to sin? We turn away from THEM! So what matters after we stumble and sin, is what we do next --- do we sin again, or to we turn BACK to Him and "confess and repent and be forgiven"?

    It is not the SIN that condemns us, but the AGAIN.

    Will you consider that the whole issue in Scripture, is "abide"? In 2Pet1:5-11 we are to judge ourselves by our fruit; as long as godliness and morality and kindness and love exhibit a heart that IS indwelt by Jesus, then our calling and election are made "steadfast" and the gates of Heaven will be provided! What about the man who once WAS purified, but now has FORGOTTEN former purification (he is now immoral, uncontrolled, ungodly, unloving and unkind)? Verse 9!

    It's the same thing in 2Cor13:5; we are to examine ourselves, to test ourselves (measuring our position by our fruits!) to see if we are in Christ and if Christ is in us! If we walk in sin, the Christ is no longer in us!

    Does that make sense, "RbG", that we abide in Him and exploit the indwelling Spirit's power to overcome our sin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    If salvation is "Christ-in-you", and the Spirit also indwelling, what happens when we sin? Do Jesus and the Spirit participate in our sins? How does that work?
    Are you asking a rhetorical question or a serious one?
    It's a question that cuts to the heart of the issue. As we just discussed, "abiding in Christ" is a constant choice --- see Col2:6-8, where we're warned to walk (abide!) in Him and guard against deception-away-from-Jesus.

    None of this makes sense in a "predestined-salvation" theme, does it? But it does make perfect sense if we "abide in Christ and salvation"!


    "As you have received Christ, so walk in Him (see that no one deceives you!)". Col2:6-8
    "Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love". Jude20-21.
    "PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES." 1Tim4:16.
    "Abide in Him SO THAT you not shrink in shame when He comes." 1Jn2:26-28.


    Whaddya think?

  5. #80

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Will you consider that the whole issue in Scripture, is "abide"? In 2Pet1:5-11 we are to judge ourselves by our fruit; as long as godliness and morality and kindness and love exhibit a heart that IS indwelt by Jesus, then our calling and election are made "steadfast" and the gates of Heaven will be provided! What about the man who once WAS purified, but now has FORGOTTEN former purification (he is now immoral, uncontrolled, ungodly, unloving and unkind)? Verse 9!
    The man in verse 9 may not be a real person, but he is US if we do not heed the warning.

    How can our calling and election be made "bebaios-firm/steadfast", if predestination is the theme? No, we have control over our calling AND election, and it can CEASE being "firm/steadfast"! That's the point of the warning!

    We make our election steadfast; not "make our MINDS firm about our GUARANTEED election" (as some people understand it) --- it clearly says make the election itself steadfast!

    I think that the only thing OSAS doctrines can say about Peter's words, is "oops"...

    ;-P
    Last edited by Gadgeteer; Feb 21st 2012 at 08:27 AM.

  6. #81

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Hi, "Percho".

    What hope does the vast majority of people have, under "predestined-salvation"?
    Do they have any chance?
    Do they have any hope?
    Is Jehovah the "God of Love" for them?

    Thanx in advance for your thoughts.
    I just believe the word of God shows that by the free will of man he would never be saved. I believe the word teaches election, called sanctified (set apart) by the spirit unto salvation (the elect) which I believe takes place at the resurrection. However I do not believe the sole purpose of their election to be for salvation but for this: but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    I do not believe Calvin had the correct understanding. Never in scripture is it stated some are predestined to hell.

    The elect are the ones God has called from the circumcision and the uncircumcision as a people for his name to be priest and kings to reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. Acts 15:14 speaks of calling (electing) from among the nations (Gentiles) a people for his name. God said by the prophet Amos somewhere around 720BC the only people of all the families of the earth were known by him, God were the two families he brought out of Egypt. Through all of the OT God spoke of a remnant of these people whom he would use and he spoke also of regathering all of them from the nations where they had been scattered.
    Known is an intimate word unto the concept of marriage. Paul said even today there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Elected for a purpose of God.

    Acts 15:16 KJV After this. Greek interlinear scripture4all.org After these YLT After these things.---After what? After this calling out of the nations a people for his name.
    I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    Let me ask. Is this the same time Jesus spoke of in Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    What happens next. Why is God calling out a people for his name and rebuilding the house of David? Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    Notice it isn't just the Lord they seek but the Lord and those he called for his name sake. Compare this to Joel 2:32 which follows the passage quoted in Acts 2 on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. The Acts 2 quote ended mid verse from Joel 2:32. Here is the balance.
    Joel 2:32 for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    Now in Acts 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
    John 2:2 YLT and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,-----Jesus died for the sin of all mankind
    Do you not Jesus can raise a man from the dead and judge him in righteousness. After all even the elect are not elected unto salvation because of there righteousness but by the faith of Christ they have the righteousness of God through the faith of Christ.
    Romans 3:22 and the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
    You may say being it says all those believing it should be faith in Christ. Let me ask. Why do they believe?
    John 10:26,27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: The Elect hear his voice they are the called according to his purpose. They are the believing ones.

  7. #82

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

    If you WANT to do these two things you are in. If you are doing these two things trying to earn your way in, you are not going to be in heaven. Everything else is secondary. JMO.

  8. #83

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by DDGresham1 View Post
    Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

    If you WANT to do these two things you are in. If you are doing these two things trying to earn your way in, you are not going to be in heaven. Everything else is secondary. JMO.
    An honorable post. Profound in its brevity and simplicity.

    Wrapped in that, he who loves God, receives Jesus, embodying Gal2:20; it is no longer we who live but Christ lives in us. The essence of what Christianity is, is fellowship with the Son, and the Spirit; and indwelt fellowship of love.

    There is a time to debate, and a time not to. Debate/discuss (which is "earnestly contend for the faith" Jude3 & Titus1:8)) when someone's eternity is at risk; simply fellowship and delight in each other's company when there is sufficient agreement on salvation, and each person is dwelling in Christ.

    Maturity is perhaps knowing the difference in those times. Never lose sight of the goal.

    ;-)

  9. #84

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I just believe the word of God shows that by the free will of man he would never be saved.
    Hi, Percho! I appreciate you, and your perceptions. Can you tell me where God's word says "he would never be saved"? How can the principle of persuasion exist, without man freely making the choice to believe or not?
    I believe the word teaches election, called sanctified (set apart) by the spirit unto salvation (the elect) which I believe takes place at the resurrection.
    Whose resurrection? Ours? So that we're not saved yet?
    However I do not believe the sole purpose of their election to be for salvation but for this: but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    "Salvation" is two fold; he who HAS the Son has eternal life (1Jn5:11-13), and "he who endures to the end will be saved" (Lk21:19). We have been saved when we believed (Acts16:31), and we are being saved (1Cor1:18).

    He who abides in Christ (and Christ in him), will be resurrected with Christ when He returns, unless they're alive at the time (they they'll be "harpazo-raptured/siezed-caught-up"!). And we shall reign with Christ.
    I do not believe Calvin had the correct understanding. Never in scripture is it stated some are predestined to hell.
    Well help me out here --- if God ordains some for eternal life but neglects the rest --- has He not ordained the rest to perish? "Double-predestination" asserts that God actively causes sin; but "single-predestination" still asserts the reprobate are ordained to perish, even if it's only by sovereign neglect to their inescapable sin.

    How do you perceive this?
    The elect are the ones God has called from the circumcision and the uncircumcision as a people for his name to be priest and kings to reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. Acts 15:14 speaks of calling (electing) from among the nations (Gentiles) a people for his name. God said by the prophet Amos somewhere around 720BC the only people of all the families of the earth were known by him, God were the two families he brought out of Egypt. Through all of the OT God spoke of a remnant of these people whom he would use and he spoke also of regathering all of them from the nations where they had been scattered.
    Known is an intimate word unto the concept of marriage. Paul said even today there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Elected for a purpose of God.

    Acts 15:16 KJV After this. Greek interlinear scripture4all.org After these YLT After these things.---After what? After this calling out of the nations a people for his name.
    I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    Let me ask. Is this the same time Jesus spoke of in Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    What happens next? Why is God calling out a people for his name and rebuilding the house of David? Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    Notice it isn't just the Lord they seek but the Lord and those he called for his name sake.
    In Romans8:30, "whom He called", is often taken to imply "He didn't call the rest". But not necessarily; it begins in verse 28 "those who loved God" --- thus, when he says "whom God called", it is implied "whom God called and who ANSWERED".

    In Jesus' words in Matt22:2-14, can any of us deny that "many truly called, decided not to become chosen"?

    "Many are called but few are chosen" --- also means that many of the called, declined being chosen...
    Compare this to Joel 2:32 which follows the passage quoted in Acts 2 on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. The Acts 2 quote ended mid verse from Joel 2:32. Here is the balance.
    Joel 2:32 for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    Well, I'd have to research what that call was; but how do we deal with Deuteronomy30:11-20? Verse 12 is a foundational refutation of the predestinary "monergistic regeneration" --- including the connected passage Romans10:6-10, it clearly says "the word of faith is in EVERYONE'S heart, each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish".

    Deut30:17 speaking of those who can turn away and perish, absolutely includes them in "the word of faith is in their hearts and mouths".

    ...they were called, sincerely...
    Now in Acts 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
    But are all "commanded to repent"? Some say, "Command does not imply ability". Contextually, it does; it is not far from any of us.

    ...if any were unable, then it would be too far...
    John 2:2 YLT and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,-----Jesus died for the sin of all mankind
    Do you not Jesus can raise a man from the dead and judge him in righteousness. After all even the elect are not elected unto salvation because of their righteousness but by the faith of Christ they have the righteousness of God through the faith of Christ.
    Peter said, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation" (1:1:9). So --- you're completely right, we join Jesus' predestined-plan, by our faith.
    Romans 3:22 and the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
    You may say being it says all those believing it should be faith in Christ. Let me ask. Why do they believe?
    John 10:26,27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: The Elect hear his voice they are the called according to his purpose. They are the believing ones.
    Okay, this is a misunderstanding. WHAT is it that they don't believe? You perceive "they don't believe in Jesus savingly" --- that's not what was happening.

    Jews: "If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly!"
    Jesus: "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you don't believe (that I'm the Messiah)."
    Jesus: "The works I do bear witness of Me." *
    Jesus: "But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah), because you're not My sheep (you have not entered through Me! Jn10:9!)"
    Jesus: "If ANYONE enters through Me he shall be saved, and shall ...find pasture" (Jn10:9)
    Jesus: "My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me;
    Jesus: "...and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
    Jesus: "And no one shall SEIZE/FORCE (harpazo!) them from My hand."
    Jesus: "My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one can SEIZE/FORCE then from My hand."


    Recognize two connections here --- first, the asterisk above connects directly to verse 10:38, "you can believe in Me just by looking at My WORKS!"

    Second, who are those the Father gives to Jesus? In John17:6, they first belong to GOD. What does that mean? Do the "reprobate/predestined-but-not-yet-saved" belong to God? No --- that embodies Johh8:42, "If God was your Father (if you loved/belonged-to Him), then you would love Me (God would give you to Me)".

    "Belong-to-God" fully denotes belief; it is Lydia in Acts16, she was a WORSHIPER of God (belonged!), and her heart was opened to Jesus. It is Cornelius in Acts10, he worshiped God, and his heart was opened to the Gospel.

    John10:26-28 is one of the "thirty-ish" secondary passages that are thought to support "predestined-salvation" (the four primaries are Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:28-35, and Rom9:11-21). Every one of those verses/passages can be shown not to support "predestination" --- and there are equal numbers and more which can never fit with "sovereign election". John10:26-28 is speaking of DEEPER knowledge ("Messiahship"!) that is given to believers. "To he who HAS, is more given". Matt13:12.

    The idea of "deeper spiritual knowledge given to believers" is the full explanation of 1Cor2:14, too; what natural men do not understand, is revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit (vs12). That means "saving-belief BEFORE things-taught"!

    Percho, if you're willing --- I'd love to look through your eyes as you read 2Cor11:3; what is our risk in that verse? Can we be "deceived away from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ", the same as Eve was deceived? If we can --- where would we be?

    Each person who allows me to see through their eyes enriches me; I cannot understand others without such sight. How narrow my world would be without that honor!

    :-)

  10. #85
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Let's discuss this, and see if we can come to agreement. :-)


    "If anyone be in Christ he is a new creation; the old has passed (is passing) away, behold all has become new (new things have come)." 2Cor5:17.

    "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1Jn3:6.

    "No one born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1Jn3:9


    Now --- this fits the concept of Jesus and the Spirit indwelling the believer; as He is in us, we cannot sin. But --- you and I do sin, John also says:


    "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us; (but) if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1:1:8-9.


    How does Scripture resolve this apparent conflict? Salvation is IN CHRIST --- and no one in Christ sins, he cannot sin; yet we do sin. What's the answer?
    Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man? And repeating what was stated before, who's 'owns' your salvation, you or Christ? For if you answer Man, then it's works that are counted as both surety and owner. If you say Christ, then His work covers; His work redeems. I hold to the later, you above are proclaiming the former.

    The earmarks, the self examination of salvation --- are that of Love of God; Love for thy Neighbor. If one is saved, he will know and be known by these two things... and through these two, all other things flow.... including obedience... Thus obedience does not save or hold one as saved, obedience is an outflow from being saved. Nothing more...nothing less. the Catch 22 that John writes in 1 John is.... don't sin : if you say you don't sin, you are a liar... again behaviors of a true christian, not works of salvation to confirm ones saved position... For we do not own title to our salvation, Jesus does.

    So by my calling to faith, I have been given the wisdom of God to hear, believe and respond through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that day my life changed from death unto life.... And in over 40 years of walking in the works He has prepared for me to walk in, give Him all the Glory for the great things He has done in my life --- I have His surety of Hope, through His Spirit within me that I am His forever.... My obedience comes from His teaching and His correcting and His guiding, and His showing, and His protecting, and His holding me from the death of my old self to the life in Christ. My obedience doesn't earn, it even doesn't show my salvation... for it should show my Love for Him, and for His Glory!!!

    As I type this, all I want to do is shout out to the Lord.... Praise God! Can I have an Amen!
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bibleョ,
    Copyright ゥ 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  11. #86
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    and

    Magnificent answer!!

    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:15-17
    "You're gonna make a difference when you lay down your life, and in complete submission to God, choose to die with Him in service to other people."
    "Sometimes it concerns me, you know, the number of people that can quote my songs, and-- or they can quote the songs of several different people, but they can't quote the Scriptures."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZLFGZ6zpeI
    Rich Mullins

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

  12. #87
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianCoffee View Post
    and

    Magnificent answer!!

    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:15-17
    To God be the Glory..... for the great things He has done and continues to do.... Thanks for the encouragement!
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bibleョ,
    Copyright ゥ 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  13. #88
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    Feb 2004
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I just believe the word of God shows that by the free will of man he would never be saved. I believe the word teaches election, called sanctified (set apart) by the spirit unto salvation (the elect) which I believe takes place at the resurrection. However I do not believe the sole purpose of their election to be for salvation but for this: but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    I do not believe Calvin had the correct understanding. Never in scripture is it stated some are predestined to hell.
    Hi Percho,

    I'm not a Calvinist per se, so I don't know all the tenets he has written about over the years, but as I start to read his writings, I haven't found that one of his positions stated clearly that some where predestined for hell... Do you know where I may find that, for I'd like to see this for myself, not being the expert here. [FWIW, some call this Double Predestination]

    But in reading my bible, I do find scripture that declares man was born in sin, thus all men are destined to hell I guess at birth. David stated that he was conceived by sinful parents, thus there is another case to say that everyman, having human parents take on the characteristics of their parents at the time they are conceived. And then in John 3, whereas men love darkness and all men have rejected the light [Jesus], and those who do not believe have already been judged. Not sure how predestined plays into hell, for everyman hates the light and everyman is born into sin, so every man deserves hell then I suppose when they are conceived.... unless they come to faith in Jesus Christ somewhere in the human life.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bibleョ,
    Copyright ゥ 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  14. #89
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    Little Jerusalem, S-Africa
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man? And repeating what was stated before, who's 'owns' your salvation, you or Christ? For if you answer Man, then it's works that are counted as both surety and owner. If you say Christ, then His work covers; His work redeems. I hold to the later, you above are proclaiming the former.

    The earmarks, the self examination of salvation --- are that of Love of God; Love for thy Neighbor. If one is saved, he will know and be known by these two things... and through these two, all other things flow.... including obedience... Thus obedience does not save or hold one as saved, obedience is an outflow from being saved. Nothing more...nothing less. the Catch 22 that John writes in 1 John is.... don't sin : if you say you don't sin, you are a liar... again behaviors of a true christian, not works of salvation to confirm ones saved position... For we do not own title to our salvation, Jesus does.

    So by my calling to faith, I have been given the wisdom of God to hear, believe and respond through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that day my life changed from death unto life.... And in over 40 years of walking in the works He has prepared for me to walk in, give Him all the Glory for the great things He has done in my life --- I have His surety of Hope, through His Spirit within me that I am His forever.... My obedience comes from His teaching and His correcting and His guiding, and His showing, and His protecting, and His holding me from the death of my old self to the life in Christ. My obedience doesn't earn, it even doesn't show my salvation... for it should show my Love for Him, and for His Glory!!!

    As I type this, all I want to do is shout out to the Lord.... Praise God! Can I have an Amen!
    Another from me too. I like a quote from one of our older members (Follower), that Christ is perfectly in control of those who will be saved. Letting God be God, is a wonderful and a peaceful thing. He knows what He is doing, as simple as that and we could either believe it or not.
    The Lord is our Shepherd
    die Here sal voorsien
    it痴 the only method
    glo dit en jy sal sien

    The power of His glory
    is the punch line of this story,
    ek staan verwonderd en tog
    het U alles volmaak besorg


  15. #90
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by CFJ View Post
    Another from me too. I like a quote from one of our older members (Follower), that Christ is perfectly in control of those who will be saved. Letting God be God, is a wonderful and a peaceful thing. He knows what He is doing, as simple as that and we could either believe it or not.
    Howdy CFJ... It's been an age since we spoke... Hope all is well!!!
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bibleョ,
    Copyright ゥ 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


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