Calvinism / pre-destination

[John146]

That's the very definition of "free will" --- there has to be more than one choice!

I would think that would be obvious.

There is a word that is descriptive of the idea, but it offends some; so I'll apologize in advance. The idea that "God changes someone's heart and mind so that he WILLS to be righteous and to believe", is akin to a lobotomy.

I agree and I don't think they should find that to be offensive at all. That is exactly what that view is like.

A hardened criminal who undergoes a lobotomy and becomes kind and law-abiding --- did he have any choice in that?

Obviously not. But I do think this is a valid comparison to how they understand God's way of saving people. It seems a bit silly when you put it that way but I don't see how they could disagree that it's a valid analogy.

The essence of God and His creation, is LOVE --- we know that "love does not demand its own way" (1Cor13:5). This is so straightforward and open, who can deny it?

Anyone can deny it if they want to, but not convincingly.

For God to make the decision --- it can't be "love"! We would be puppets!

Exactly. How can love be forced? That contradicts the definition of love. Love must come from a willing heart and nowhere does scripture teach that God forces His love upon people or that people are forced to love Him.

God doesn't want puppets. He wants fellowship with real thinking feeling creatures who MUST be free to love Him back!

I agree. I think that is very clear.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice that this does not say "whosoever God makes willing will be given the water of life". No, it says "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". We are required to willingly take/accept what God freely offers and we have the choice to either take/accept it or reject it.

[keyzer soze]

Let me turn the question on you guys?

1) Did God know everything before the first cause? Before God created another being with free-will did God know the outcome of every event?
2) At this point in time this creation of outcomes only exists in God's "mind" because there is no creation yet, right? So God knows every person who will and will not repent BEFORE the first act of free-will has any repercussions.
3) So if there is no creation yet, there is no other being with free-will outside of God's and God knows everything, then ask yourself if God has any control at all. What came first, God's plan or the events caused by free-will?
4) If free-will comes first then God doesn't know all outcomes. If God knows all before free-will and if God has any control at all or any say in how things play out, then God has complete control of everything that will happen. That is to say that whatever happens only happens because God ALLOWED it to happen - fully knowing it would happen BEFORE the first free-will event outside of himself took place.

Does this make sense? God knew that Cain would kill Abel BEFORE God created the angels, before Lucifer fell, before God created the universe, before God created Adam, before God created Eve, before Satan tempted Eve, before Adam sat there like a bump on a log and didn't lead his family and ate the fruit. God knew all these events would happen ALWAYS because God does not learn from his creation does he? God knew the events that would lead up to Cain killing Abel before eternity and if God wanted to change that I fully believe God could have. Does that mean that God is responsible for Cain killing Abel? No, not to me because God gave Cain free-will and Cain sinned. Does that mean that God ALLOWED that sin to occur? To that I answer yes in my understanding of scripture, nothing occurs that God does not allow to occur but God does not create evil, free-will does.

So I hope this brings us closer together in at least where I am coming from. I fully believe that God could have kept Abel alive and well if God's sovereign will was to do so but it was not.

[John146]

I don't believe God's sovereign will is up for debate. God is either sovereign or he isn't,

I think everyone here would agree, but the problem is that we don't all agree on what it means for God to be sovereign. You think it means God has to control everything that happens. But scripture never teaches that. Can He be sovereign while allowing man to freely choose? Yes! If God sovereignly chose to make it so that man is responsible to choose, including even choosing to go against God's desires, then how does that make Him any less sovereign? Thing would be just as He wanted them to be so He is still sovereign even though He makes man responsible to choose. It wasn't man's choice to make himself responsible to choose to accept or reject Christ, it was God's sovereign choice to make it that way.

[Gadgeteer]

Isn't what then follows in your reply your opinions? If it doesn't matter, why write it then?

That's the point --- is what I post, or what you post, consistent with Scripture, or is it just opinion? That's why you and I are trying to confine ourselves to verses. When Paul says "save yourselves" in 1Tim4:16, is he conveying anything [u]but[/iu] "participateion"? In Philip2:16 --- could Paul mean anything but "my success depends on your perseverance"?

"(prove yourselves blameless and innocent, children of God) ...holding fast the word of life, SO THAT in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain (over you)!"

It's not opinion that is important but understandings, so I would disagree that each of us has to discern to understand. You are giving me understanding to your own questions about the Arminian ways of faith. How about giving your understandings to just one of mine?

Who then offers surety of a man's salvation? Christ? Or Man?

I'm not understanding what you mean by "surety of salvation". Assurance? Guarantee? The steadfastness of election, in Peter's words, is our choice --- 2:1:5-11. Make your ELECTION bebaios-firm/steadfast. Salvation is because of diligent perseverance --- "save yourselves" in 1Tim4:16. The treasure is eternal life, it is given to us through faith, and we guard it by the Holy Spirit's power in 2Tim1:12-14.

Note that "guard-by-the-Spirit's-power" in 2Tim1:14 is the same concept as "overcoming the flesh by the Spirit" in Romans8:12-14!

The work of salvation, is Jesus'; wrought sufficient and complete from the Cross. The fabric of salvation is "union" between Creator (Jesus!) and creature (you and me!); we become begotten/adopted children-of-God.

The begottenness is all of Him, and nothing of us; not of our will or effort or anything Human. Jn1:13.

...but becoming begotten, "receiving the free gift of grace", is ALL of us --- John1:12, Romans5:17, etcetera!



The whole point of the discussion --- we do not just receive His grace ONCE, we receive Him and dwell in Him every moment of every day! The whole issue is "ABIDE in Him"!

"As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith... SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ!" Col2:6-8.

CAN we be "taken captive away from Christ"? Paul says yes! If we are deceived away from Christ, are we still saved? Who decides the "surety of salvation" in Colossians 2:6-8?

[John146]

Let me turn the question on you guys?

1) Did God know everything before the first cause? Before God created another being with free-will did God know the outcome of every event?
2) At this point in time this creation of outcomes only exists in God's "mind" because there is no creation yet, right? So God knows every person who will and will not repent BEFORE the first act of free-will has any repercussions.
3) So if there is no creation yet, there is no other being with free-will outside of God's and God knows everything, then ask yourself if God has any control at all. What came first, God's plan or the events caused by free-will?
4) If free-will comes first then God doesn't know all outcomes. If God knows all before free-will and if God has any control at all or any say in how things play out, then God has complete control of everything that will happen. That is to say that whatever happens only happens because God ALLOWED it to happen - fully knowing it would happen BEFORE the first free-will event outside of himself took place.

Does this make sense?

No, it doesn't. Your post is making my brain melt.

I truly can't follow your reasoning at all. I don't say that to offend, I just say that to let you know that I am trying to figure out what your point is but just can't. I can't figure out how knowing something beforehand means that He causes it to happen. That makes no sense to me at all.

God knew that Cain would kill Abel BEFORE God created the angels, before Lucifer fell, before God created the universe, before God created Adam, before God created Eve, before Satan tempted Eve, before Adam sat there like a bump on a log and didn't lead his family and ate the fruit. God knew all these events would happen ALWAYS because God does not learn from his creation does he? God knew the events that would lead up to Cain killing Abel before eternity and if God wanted to change that I fully believe God could have. Does that mean that God is responsible for Cain killing Abel? No, not to me because God gave Cain free-will and Cain sinned. Does that mean that God ALLOWED that sin to occur? To that I answer yes in my understanding of scripture, nothing occurs that God does not allow to occur but God does not create evil, free-will does.

So, do you believe God wanted Cain to kill Abel or not? If not then what is your point exactly? You seem to be saying contradictory things in your post. Regardless of whether God knows something beforehand or not, does man truly have free will to choose or not? If so then God does not control all things even though nothing happens without His knowledge and without Him allowing it to happen. Just because He allows something to happen doesn't mean it's what He wanted to happen or made happen. If everybody always did what He wanted then there'd be no reason for Him to punish anyone.

[keyzer soze]

I think everyone here would agree, but the problem is that we don't all agree on what it means for God to be sovereign. You think it means God has to control everything that happens. But scripture never teaches that. Can He be sovereign while allowing man to freely choose? Yes! If God sovereignly chose to make it so that man is responsible to choose, including even choosing to go against God's desires, then how does that make Him any less sovereign? Thing would be just as He wanted them to be so He is still sovereign even though He makes man responsible to choose. It wasn't man's choice to make himself responsible to choose to accept or reject Christ, it was God's sovereign choice to make it that way.

Please answer my questions above. Also if you could include your thoughts to the answer to this question.

Bonus question:
1) Does God know the number of souls that will repent and be saved BEFORE creation? Meaning, does God know who will exercise his free-will to choose Him and turn from sin before God creates a single human being with free-will to begin with?

[keyzer soze]

No, it doesn't. Your post is making my brain melt.

I truly can't follow your reasoning at all. I don't say that to offend, I just say that to let you know that I am trying to figure out what your point is but just can't. I can't figure out how knowing something beforehand means that He causes it to happen. That makes no sense to me at all.

So, do you believe God wanted Cain to kill Abel or not? If not then what is your point exactly? You seem to be saying contradictory things in your post. Regardless of whether God knows something beforehand or not, does man truly have free will to choose or not? If so then God does not control all things even though nothing happens without His knowledge and without Him allowing it to happen. Just because He allows something to happen doesn't mean it's what He wanted to happen or made happen. If everybody always did what He wanted then there'd be no reason for Him to punish anyone.

So you can't even try to answer any of my questions... ok, that speaks volumes.

[keyzer soze]

Gadgeteer, does eternal life begin when you have faith or only after you die with faith? I am sure we both agree that eternal has to mean forever, so when does the "eternal" part kick in?

[Gadgeteer]

I will attempt to get to these later if I have time. You seem to be an expert of asking questions but you never answer any of them.

I'm sorry --- ask away! I'll try to do better!

Does the bible not also state that God will have mercy on who he wants to have mercy?

We hafta read Rom9:18 in context, and understand the principle of "Semitic View" (anthropromorphism).

When we read Exodus 10:1, GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart. But just two verses earlier (9:34), PHARAOH hardened his OWN heart. Who did it? "Semitic View" is a literary device ascribing to God what men do themselves. So Romans9:18 does not conflict with Rm11:32 "God has mercy on ALL MEN", it's just saying "God hardens (allows men to harden themselves) and has mercy on (allows men to receive His all-availed-mercy)".

It's the same thing in Isaiah 6:9 and Mark4:12, where it's perceived that GOD closes their eyes against belief --- but it must fit with Matt13:5, they close their OWN eyes and ears against belief. It's the same in 2Cor4:4 --- "the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving". Did they have no choice? Or is it another "Semitic/Anthropromorphism", ascribing to satan what they did themselves?

So Romans9 must be read in context; and most important is to recognize Romans9 mirrors Galatians4 (Rm9:11-21 w/ Gal4:21-32, Rom9:8 identical with Gal3:29; Rm9:12 quoting Gen25:23), it is an allegory about two covenants. Galatians uses "Isaac and Ishmael", Romans uses "Jacob and Esau". Note also the connection between Rm9:32-33 (Israel did not enter the Promised Land because they did not pursue it by faith), and Heb3:18-19 (Israel did not enter the Promised Land because of disobedience and unbelief", and Heb4:11 "do not fall and fail to enter GOD'S rest by IMITATING their disobedience and unbelief!"

Remember, I am on record quoting the end of Romans 11 several times. I fully acknowledge that Paul who was shown things by Jesus personally, knows far more then I will ever know and understand and even Paul talks about a limit in Chapter 11.

Then how do you read Rm11:18-23?

Then Peter when referencing Paul's writings calls them difficult to understand. Are you trying to tell me that your theology is so sound that unlike Peter you have no trouble putting everything together?

No --- you tell me. Am I misunderstanding the verses I'm citing? What are your understandings of these verses?

What about all the "deceived-away-from-Jesus" verses? Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Pet3:17, 1Tim4:1, and especially 2Cor11:3? How do you understand these?

I will attempt to get at some of your questions later but I think you are simply ignoring the verses/concepts/context of the passages that I draw my conclusions from and simply running to the ones that you know are tough for me to answer. I can (search): "bible passages that prove Calvinism wrong" and come up with all your points. So what? I can also (search) the same thing about arminianism and get a list of verses that you will find impossible answering in the way I can phrase the question or you can simply dodge them... Are you truly open to what I think on the matter or are you just itching to shoot everything down with a list of scripture that anyone with searches and references and throw into the mix?

Either the verses I've been citing say what I think they say, or they don't; it's up to you to show me I'm wrong if you think I am.

...as I showed you with "God has mercy on whom He wishes" --- it does not assert "exclusive mercy", it must fit with "mercy on ALL MEN" from Rm11:32.

I believe the truth lies between "Calvinism" and "Armenianism"

I agree; but it's closer to Arminianism than to Calvinism.

but I don't believe God's sovereign will is up for debate.

True again --- but how God APPLIES that sovereign will is at issue, as revealed in the Scriptures. Can God's sovereignty permit men to choose?

Yes. Have you read Deut30:11-20, and Romans10:6-10? How is "the word of faith" not given to ALL men? BOth those who CAN repent and believe, AND those who can turn away and perish? How is Deut30:12 not a foundational refutation of "monergism", the basis of Calvinism?

God is either sovereign or he isn't, God can't choose to set aside a sovereign will but still claim to be sovereign because it was a choice he made.

Now wait, if God sovereignly makes salvation available to all men, and sovereignly draws all men to where they can be saved (Jn12:32, and Deu30:11-20), then He's still sovereign --- isn't He?

Just like I don't get to claim that I am employed but then if I quit on my own free-will (not forced out) I can still claim to be employed because it was my choice. No, I am either employed or I am not. God is either sovereign or he isn't. If God chooses to not be sovereign (which I believe to be unbiblical) then he is not sovereign.

Again, I look forward to your thoughts. We don't have to agree, but know that I appreciate you and your giving me the chance to look through your eyes. I pray that I benefit you similarly as you look through mine.

:-)

[keyzer soze]

Keyzer, where exactly in Scripture is the idea of "God lording over even man's free will"? What does John7:17 mean to you?

by Lord I mean he is Lord of all.. not universalism

We're commanded to love God. (Matt22:37). If "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5), then how is it that you perceive God pulls the puppet-strings on who loves Him BACK? It has to fit Romans2:4-8, does it? Please explain how God's kindness leads to repentance, if not everyone "led", repents? Because it is not "purely through Grace". It is "by grace, through faith". On Eph2:8 noted commentator and Greek authority A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

That's what Peter stated in 1:1:9 --- receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation.
Fine so far. Where does faith come from? In Acts2:37 --- they were persuaded/convicted by Peter's words, weren't they?

This is a loaded question. Does God play a part in bringing me the word? Is everything acting outside of his control?

Romans 10 says "Faith comes from HEARING" --- and it says, "with the heart, man believes". Faith comes from the heart, doesn't it? Rom6:17 agrees; we become obedient-from-the-heart... Please show me anywhere in Scripture where God's grace is not made available to anyone. Will you? When Scripture says "God loved the WORLD", how do you change that in your understanding to "God loved only SOME"? You're taking a verse which asserts:
"You can't see the wind either, but know it's there by its effects; spiritual birth us just as unseen but just as real"
...and trying to make it into:
"The wind blows salvation onto only a few whom it wishes"!
Finish the quote:
"God is not partial, BUT in every land he WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME."

I believe God loves all. I believe even those who don't choose God and choose sin are loved by God. Why can't God love a soul that He JUSTLY punishes? I love my son but I punish him when he does wrong. The better question in my mind is WHY DOES GOD NOT PUNISH ALL?!?!?! That is the question I wrestle with. You believe that because you have this faith that you generated you should not be punished for sin but because someone else who is just as guilty as you does not have faith, they are fully deserving of an eternal punishment? This does not trouble you?

God's position is receiving the attentions of men --- and plainly stated, the opposite of that (which is what "predestined-salvation" is founded on!) is partiality/bias/hypocrisy that God is NOT! So God decides on a WHIM whom to save, and whom to hopelessly helplessly inescapably send to Hell. Then God runs this Final Judgment, judging MEN for what He Himself decided.

Hold the horses here... God PUNISHES for SINS committed... you seem to always leave out the sin and make it SOLELY about faith as if not believing is the ONLY sin worth punishing. I assure you that Jesus Christ was on the cross feeling the real effects of sins, sins of those who will believe in his name. Don't sell SIN short and solely make this about faith.

Condemned Man: "God, I had no chance, You decreed me to perish and sin; You withheld my only chance!"
God: "Gee, that's too bad, isn't it? Depart from me into what you DESERVE, which you had NO chance of escaping or turning from; tough luck, buddy."

Isn't that what will happen at the Judgment? Please balance "God enables only a FEW to BE saved and they irresistibly believe, the rest irresistibly perish", with Ezk18:24:
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked (says the Lord God), rather than that they should repent and live?"

You are asking me to judge God here with limited knowledge of God's great plan. There are NUMEROUS spots in the bible that if you read part way through you are left wondering, WHAT IN THE HECK IS GOD THINKING HERE?!?! but after we see it play out we better understand that it was for HIS GLORY. Who do you think salvation is for anyways, do you think it is about ME and YOU or is it all about Christ?

How does that fit into your perception?
Well, with respect --- you're gonna hafta start reconciling the very clear verses we've been discussing, or you'll have to just start marking them out in your copy. I mean no disrespect --- but I think our discussion has established very clear things in Scripture. What will you do with them? But He doesn't love the REST and doesn't want to show THEM mercy. What do you have over them that God is able to show such favoritism/partiality? Okay --- point blank question:

Ummm, are you suggesting that God doesn't show favoritism? Were all the angels created the same? Where does this concept of fairness come from because I am yet to pick up on it through scripture or through HIS creation which is general revelation about Him.

How do you know that you are a FIFTEENER (Luke8:15), and not a THIRTEENER (Lk8:13) who only THINKS he's saved but WILL fall away some day (proving unelection!).

Time and reflection.... short term I don't believe anyone can tell. However there are a number of "tests" and characteristics of saved people outlined in the bible that we are suggested by the writers to compare ourselves against over time.... only time can tell from our end.

How can you know which you are? The thirteeners received the word with JOY and BELIEVED! What was the difference between the thirteeners, and the fifteeners? Why did God want ONE, and not the OTHER? Please tell me how God can be "holy" and ordain/purpose/predestine the vast majority to sin and Hell. No disrespect meant, I'd like to understand how you perceive that.
I've asked you some very pointed questions, which should make you seriously re-examine your beliefs; there is no crime in anyone making any of us re-examine our beliefs. The only crime would be to stop short of a full examination.

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on the question in red.

Again, I believe time and fruits will be the indicator to myself. Does my walk with Christ grow with time? Do I show fruit as I grow in Christ? If these things do not show up, if over time I drift away from Him versus towards him then I would lean on the none good soil for my location with Him...

[Redeemed by Grace]

That's the point --- is what I post, or what you post, consistent with Scripture, or is it just opinion? That's why you and I are trying to confine ourselves to verses. When Paul says "save yourselves" in 1Tim4:16, is he conveying anything [u]but[/iu] "participateion"? In Philip2:16 --- could Paul mean anything but "my success depends on your perseverance"?

Hi Gadgeteer,

I see that as reading that into the text... for in context,

1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Is for self encouragement, not for self enrollment...

Philippians 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

Paul doesn't know the heart, but he does know the earmarks of the ones who are heeding his instruction... so as he is sharing the Gospel, he's encouraging as well as challenging those of Philippi --- in effect know what you believe, and why you believe it, and that what you believe is the truth that I have given you

"(prove yourselves blameless and innocent, children of God) ...holding fast the word of life, SO THAT in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain (over you)!"

I'm not understanding what you mean by "surety of salvation". Assurance? Guarantee? The steadfastness of election, in Peter's words, is our choice --- 2:1:5-11. Make your ELECTION bebaios-firm/steadfast. Salvation is because of diligent perseverance --- "save yourselves" in 1Tim4:16. The treasure is eternal life, it is given to us through faith, and we guard it by the Holy Spirit's power in 2Tim1:12-14.

Again for self-assurance. It be like me stating to you, are you saved? Will you be saved tomorrow then? On what basis are you saved today and in doubt about tomorrow?

Note that "guard-by-the-Spirit's-power" in 2Tim1:14 is the same concept as "overcoming the flesh by the Spirit" in Romans8:12-14!

The work of salvation, is Jesus'; wrought sufficient and complete from the Cross. The fabric of salvation is "union" between Creator (Jesus!) and creature (you and me!); we become begotten/adopted children-of-God.

The begottenness is all of Him, and nothing of us; not of our will or effort or anything Human. Jn1:13.

...but becoming begotten, "receiving the free gift of grace", is ALL of us --- John1:12, Romans5:17, etcetera!



The whole point of the discussion --- we do not just receive His grace ONCE, we receive Him and dwell in Him every moment of every day! The whole issue is "ABIDE in Him"!

"As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith... SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ!" Col2:6-8.

CAN we be "taken captive away from Christ"? Paul says yes! If we are deceived away from Christ, are we still saved? Who decides the "surety of salvation" in Colossians 2:6-8?

Jesus Declares to His disciple, you did not choose Me, I choice you... Paul writes that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable... What happen at the wisdom of salvation's calling is a reprogramming of sorts... Darkness moves to light, and the instruction of changing behaviors are just that. Behavior is not equal to position, but position begets behavior.

Position in Christ drives obedience, for we are His possession.

Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Gadgeteer]

Let me turn the question on you guys?

1) Did God know everything before the first cause? Before God created another being with free-will did God know the outcome of every event?

"Knowing", and "causing" are very different things.

2) At this point in time this creation of outcomes only exists in God's "mind" because there is no creation yet, right? So God knows every person who will and will not repent BEFORE the first act of free-will has any repercussions.
3) So if there is no creation yet, there is no other being with free-will outside of God's and God knows everything, then ask yourself if God has any control at all. What came first, God's plan or the events caused by free-will?

To presume that God "fine-tunes" creation to ordain every person's response, exceeds the quantizable states of the Universe (quantum mechanics). One "tuning" would also preclude another's "determination", by definition. Randomness also asserts --- just as a rocket must have active guidance to correct against the "N-Body Perturbation" (EVERY planet and star in the UNIVERSE acts on your rocket, each pulling in a different direction!), men must have self-determination or outside control or no one would achieve anything.

So God could not create a Universe in which "initial fine-tuning" determines the fates of each of 10 billion people.

4) If free-will comes first then God doesn't know all outcomes.

Do you like time-travel movies? Prophecy simply tells of what has already happened in the future; just as if we had accompanied Peabody in his "Wayback Machine" and set the dial forward instead of way back...

If God knows all before free-will and if God has any control at all or any say in how things play out, then God has complete control of everything that will happen. That is to say that whatever happens only happens because God ALLOWED it to happen - fully knowing it would happen BEFORE the first free-will event outside of himself took place.

There are those who say that God planted the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden because He wanted Adam and Eve to fall; it was "ordained". My response, is: "Oh yeah? Then why did He put the Tree of Life there???"

It may be that the Earth and the Universe was created perfect, the way He wanted; and man had to have the free will to fall, because God wanted a fellowship of love.

Besides, the way He created everything, "God saw that it was GOOD". Very good. Gen1:31.

Does this make sense? God knew that Cain would kill Abel BEFORE God created the angels, before Lucifer fell, before God created the universe, before God created Adam, before God created Eve, before Satan tempted Eve, before Adam sat there like a bump on a log and didn't lead his family and ate the fruit. God knew all these events would happen ALWAYS because God does not learn from his creation does he? God knew the events that would lead up to Cain killing Abel before eternity and if God wanted to change that I fully believe God could have.

Knew --- yes. Participated in causation? No.

Does that mean that God is responsible for Cain killing Abel? No, not to me because God gave Cain free-will and Cain sinned. Does that mean that God ALLOWED that sin to occur? To that I answer yes in my understanding of scripture, nothing occurs that God does not allow to occur but God does not create evil, free-will does.

Everyone agrees on "total depravity"; of ourselves, we can do nothing. If we had even a little goodness in us (Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism), then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the Cross. But He did, because we don't.

...the issue here is whether or not God draws everyone to the very door, and sovereignly allows each to enter Jesus or not. I perceive He does, you perceive He does not.

So I hope this brings us closer together in at least where I am coming from. I fully believe that God could have kept Abel alive and well if God's sovereign will was to do so but it was not.

The concept of "permitting" is anathema to "Predestined-Salvation". Under that, God permits nothing, all is ordained, "nothing happens outside of His sovereign will". That's easily refuted; God does not want us to sin, in Him there is no sin (1Jn3:5-8!). He appeared to DESTROY sin and the works of the devil.

...yet, we are permitted to sin, and in our Human weakness we sometimes do. (1Cor10:13.)

God permitted Cain to kill Abel --- but was not involved in the decision at all.

God permits us to love Him and choose His cleansing and His righteousness, or He permits us to choose sin darkness and separation. Such is the nature of "love".

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer, does eternal life begin when you have faith or only after you die with faith? I am sure we both agree that eternal has to mean forever, so when does the "eternal" part kick in?

I will answer you not with my words, but with Peter's. :-)

"...according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time." 1Pet1:3-5.

The "inheritance" is sonship with God and Jesus; it is union through what Jesus did on the Cross. In John17:3, "Eternal life is KNOWING YOU, and knowing Me." In 1Jn5, "He who has the Son has eternal life".

Eternal life is reserved for us in Heaven; we are protected by God through our faith. We POSSESS eternal life, when we believe and when we receive Jesus and walk in Him and are indwelt by Him.

So "eternal life", is a position; immortality is something by which we enter actual eternal life one day, but we possess eternal life now if we have Jesus.

If it is all "through faith", then if faith can become faithlessness (as 2Tim2:11-13 says), then we can no longer possess eternal life. The other side of the coin to 1Jn5:11-13 ("he who has the Son has eternal life"), is 2Jn1:7-9; he who succumbs to deceivers and goes too far (goes out from us!) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, no longer has Jesus or the Father!

Very clear, isn't it? How do you read those verses? Do you have a different understanding?

[Redeemed by Grace]

And God also judges and destroys men using men...

Samuel 15:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

For which Saul disobeyed God and thus lost his kingship to David.


Thy will be done on earth.....

[Michael Snow]

See the video linked here:
http://sdcougar.startlogic.com/blog/?p=179

It is one of the best explanations that I have heard. Helped clarify some things for me.
I side with John Wesley, but as he said, on justification, there was not a hair's breadth of difference between him and John Calvin.