Well, just go to blueletterbible.org. You can search anything in most any translation (but verb tenses only appear in KJV). Even dialup takes less than a minute...
Originally Posted by keyzer soze
What I was asking, is "what if I show you a verse that speaks of becoming un-born?"
I don't believe you can cease to be born again, so I am not sure what you are asking here.
"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons. (But) if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers/partners, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
...much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)!" Heb12:7-9, 25
What points does he establish?
1. He's talking to a saved audience, encouraging them (including himself!) to "let us run with endurance the race before us, avoiding the sin which so easily entangles us".
2. He asserts that all of us have become subject/partakers in His discipline (past tense!)
3. But there is a true possibility of change; though in the past you were under God's discipline, if you are NOW WITHOUT then you are not sons. Clearly saying "no LONGER sons but now illegitimate"!
4. Verse 9 is an eternal question --- "shall we not BE (continue!) in subjection to God's discipline AND LIVE (eternally)?"
5. Verse 15 (do not fall) and 25 (do not turn away from God) are clearly teaching "fallible salvation".
I've posted several times "the entire letter of Hebrews", where chapter after chapter the readers are warned against falling-from-salvation. Have you read those posts?
Can't be --- "ALL have become subject" --- a never-saved person is never-subject to God's discipline. He says "shall WE" -- including himself. All views of OSAS deny movement; "one cannot move from saved to unsaved, if someone is not saved NOW then he was never REALLY saved in the first place". But movement is in verse 8, it's in verse 15, and it's in verse 25. Movement is also in chapters 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, and 13 if you'd like to discuss those.
Here is how I interpret the above scripture and most of the epistles that Paul is writing.
1) Paul is writing to believers (in the sense that he know some believe and would be the same way my pastor would address our church. he knows SOME believe but also knows not all believe. he would also recognize that there are some there who THINK they believe but probably don't and when things get tough later will be exposed)
So you are trying two principles:
2) Paul typically tries to encourage and build up. I believe every epistle except Galatians Paul is commending to his readers about something in his greeting. In Galatians Paul is ticked off by what he has heard and gets to the heart of the matter before any pleasantries.
1. Those who do not submit were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place.
2. "Not-submitting" is hypothetical but not possible, it's encouragement or "effective means".
Can you establish either of those principles as "credible", with respect to 2John or Hebrews12, that we've been discussing?
Why does he want to read hearts? Obviously, to lead NEVER-believers to salvation (embodying principle #1 just above); if a person can be led TO salvation, on what basis can he not be led FROM salvation?
3) Paul can't read hearts
Now this is a contradiction to what you've been saying; can someone be led astray, or not? Is it "mere hypothetical, fatherly advice (effective means) by which God KEEPS us saved, but it can't really ever happen"?
4) Paul warns of things that can lead someone astray
Or can we really be led astray?
In 1Jn2:19, clearly "they were not with us", when they left. Could they have been saved, according to the wording, last year? Last week? Yes! There is nothing in the wording which prevents that. Now -- 2Jn1:7-9, if there is no subject-change, very plainly speaks of "deceivers which can lead some astray to to out from us (go on ahead, or go too far)". So we would either have to prove the strange interpretation (the "subject sandwich") or accept that a truly saved person can become unsaved.
All in all I believe that if someone walks away from Christ they were never really with Christ. 1 Jn 2:19 is the general explanation that I would give to anyone who is lead away from the truth and the same verse I would point to for the shallow soil and the thorny soil: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
"Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you receive HEAVENLY CROWNS. Anyone who was NEVER-SAVED will (of course) go too far, and won't abide in Christ's teachings (they have never abided!); but the truly saved WILL abide and will have the Father and the Son."
Can we support "subject-sandwich", that is "saved/unsaved/saved", and the premise that deceivers want us to have less rewards in Heaven? That doesn't ring credible, does it? "Fallible salvation" in 2Jn1 is the same as what we just discussed in Hebrews12, isn't it? And it's the same in 1Jn2:26-28 (where not-abiding causes us to shrink-in-shame before Jesus from our sin), it's the warning of 1Tim4:16, of 2Pet1:5-11 and 3:17, dozens and dozens of verses.
What you and I are doing here, is disassembling our doctrines, and looking at the bricks that found what we believe. If those bricks do not fit what either of us has previously built, then the structure has to be changed rather than the bricks thrown away. Do you agree? Can you show me how Hebrews12 and 2Jn1 do not say what I think they say, can you show me a different way "my bricks have to go together"?
I know you won't be a fan of this reasoning but its what I believe.
He cannot. Using the word "snatch", as Jesus used it, in Jn10:26 & 28, "harpazo-sieze/remove-FORCIBLY". No ONE can FORCE us away. Yet --- we can be persuaded into saving belief (John20:31!), if we get persuaded out of belief (deceived!) it's not forcing anyone, is it?
Plus I don't have my bible on me right now to look anything up so this was the only verse I could think of to describe/cross-reference how I interpret what is going on here. I do NOT believe that the devil can ever snatch away someone who belongs to Christ.
...look at this verse again:
"I worry, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3.
What is the danger? What does serpent-satan want to accomplish? From what are we at the same risk as Eve? Why did Paul write this?
Let's put all these bricks-of-Bible-passages together, both of us, and see what we build. Can you propose a structure that still fits any view of "Once Saved Always Saved"?