Calvinism / pre-destination

[John146]

If we could make the first move, then we would be more "Pelagic" than Scriptural. But Deuteronomy30:11-20, with Rom10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31 are conclusive; the "word of faith" is in EVERY person's heart and mouth, each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish; it is not too far nor too difficult for anyone, it is very near --- it (the word of faith) is in our hearts and mouths. Romans10 says it's the SAME word of faith they preached about Jesus, as in Deuteronomy!

The "first move", is the call to EVERYONE to the wedding-feast/salvation, as Jesus said in Matt22; each person can accept the invitation, or can decline. The king in Matt22 (God!) decided nothing.

Exactly. God invites/calls and then we are required to respond. So, He initiates the process by inviting/calling us to salvation and then makes us responsible to choose to either accept or reject the invitation/call. I don't see any indication anywhere in scripture which teaches that anyone is unable to choose to accept the call to salvation by repenting and putting their faith in Christ.

[John146]

Believe it or not, I am on your side of this debate.

I wasn't really sure which side you were on and was trying not to make any assumptions about that either way. I just wanted to make sure you knew what my point was in case you had missed it.

That being said, God did place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. Why? I truly do not know. Maybe so they could choose to love Him?

That could be. I think love can only result from a willing choice. Love can't be forced. Someone has to be willing to make the choice to love (or not).

[keyzer soze]

Not sure I want to ask this but I will anyways. How do you explain why some people rejects the gospel for a period of their life but then accepts it later in life after they have a change of heart? Perhaps some tragedy or circumstance humbles them and they realize the need for Christ which changes them and allows them to accept what they before could not accept. Do you believe this is salvation by "the chance of life" or do you believe that God orchestrates these events that changes a person's heart?

[John146]

Not sure I want to ask this but I will anyways. How do you explain why some people rejects the gospel for a period of their life but then accepts it later in life after they have a change of heart?

As time goes on people learn more things and have more time to think about things, so their perspective changes as time goes on. For some people it takes more time than others to think things over as they contemplate how they want to respond to God's call to salvation.

Perhaps some tragedy or circumstance humbles them and they realize the need for Christ which changes them and allows them to accept what they before could not accept. Do you believe this is salvation by "the chance of life" or do you believe that God orchestrates these events that changes a person's heart?

Everyone is different so God knows how much is necessary to reach each person. It's not going to be exactly the same for all people since all people are different. But He isn't going to repent and believe for anyone, so regardless of how much God does in a person's life in an effort to get them to repent and believe they still have to decide how to respond to God's call to salvation rather than God deciding for them. It's not as if God wants all people to be saved but He wants it more for some than others or anything like that. He does enough for each person to give them the opportunity to be saved and that is what matters.

[WSGAC]

Question:

Can anyone describe, or account for the difference in the one who responds "yes" to God's call and the one who responds "no"? Specifically, what is it about you that is the reason for your "yes" to God's, that is not found in the one who answers "no" to God? Could it have gone the other way for you? Might you have just as well decided "no" instead of "yes"? If not, why not? What is the deciding factor for those who say "yes" vs. those who say "no"?

[John146]

Question:

Can anyone describe, or account for the difference between the one who responds God's call and the one who does not? Specifically, what is it about you that is the reason for your "yes" to God's call, that is not found in the one who answers "no" to God?

That is a question that I believe is almost impossible to answer without knowing another person's heart intimately and knowing all about them as only they and God know about themselves and their hearts. We can only know ourselves in that way so there's no way for us to determine exactly why we responded differently than someone else.

Could it have gone the other way for you?

Yes.

Might you have just as well decided "no" instead of "yes"?

Yes. I certainly don't feel that I was forced to repent and believe in Christ. If I couldn't have decided "no" instead then why didn't I just believe right away instead of going through a time of rebellion?

If not, why not? What is the deciding factor for those who say "yes" vs. those who say "no"?

That's a very difficult question to answer. I don't think the deciding factor is the same for everyone. I can answer for myself but not for everyone. For me that deciding factor was coming to the conclusion that there has to be more to life then just living these temporary lives and that's it. So, by coming to that conclusion I was allowing for the possibility of an afterlife and eternal life. Then later after contemplating my life and thinking about the gospel things just clicked with me that it was the truth and I accepted it, repented of my sins and put my faith in Christ. But someone else might come to a decision to believe the gospel and accept Christ a different way.

[Gadgeteer]

God spoke with Adam, Eve, and lucifer after they died (separated from Him due to their sinning), and even Abraham spoke with the rich man in hell. Just because one is spiritually dead, doesn't mean God won't/can't speak to them.

Exactly --- WHEN we were dead in sins God made us alive by grace through faith! That means "faith" happened WHEN we were dead! (Dead men believed!) That ruins "made-alive before belief". God speaks to dead men, Jesus came for dead/sinners/sick. Matt9:12-13.

Why did he place the "Tree of Life" in the Garden?

So that they could live, I guess?

Ahhh, but they weren't allowed to partake. No one has, yet.

I dunno why the Tree of Life was placed in the Garden; and I dunno why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed there. But the 2nd tree opposes the argument "they were put there 'cause God wanted them to sin".

[keyzer soze]

As time goes on people learn more things and have more time to think about things, so their perspective changes as time goes on. For some people it takes more time than others to think things over as they contemplate how they want to respond to God's call to salvation.

Everyone is different so God knows how much is necessary to reach each person. It's not going to be exactly the same for all people since all people are different. But He isn't going to repent and believe for anyone, so regardless of how much God does in a person's life in an effort to get them to repent and believe they still have to decide how to respond to God's call to salvation rather than God deciding for them. It's not as if God wants all people to be saved but He wants it more for some than others or anything like that. He does enough for each person to give them the opportunity to be saved and that is what matters.

Not sure I want to ask this but I will anyways. How do you explain why some people rejects the gospel for a period of their life but then accepts it later in life after they have a change of heart? Perhaps some tragedy or circumstance humbles them and they realize the need for Christ which changes them and allows them to accept what they before could not accept. Do you believe this is salvation by "the chance of life" or do you believe that God orchestrates these events that changes a person's heart?

John (or anyone else) let me add 2 wrinkles to this and I think you will begin to see my issue with "free-will" outside of God's sovereignty:
1) As you agreed to above sometimes it takes LONGER for certain people to come to a point of acceptance, well what if they would have DIED before coming to that point? Does God control the circumstances of our death or is that too outside of God's will and any one of us can die at any time and God is hands off?
2) Is God controlling the circumstances in someone's life to change their mind about Him or not? If so, why? If a person hears the gospel and refuses to believe it (which was my case and many, many others) why would God keep you alive and allow things in your life to bring you to a point of accepting Him and not do this very thing for everyone. If you rejected Him once, why not simply shut the book?

I know we will disagree but I hope you see my point. I have seen things in life bring people to God who earlier in their life refused to believe (including myself).... now, one has to ask themselves, are these people saved by a function of luck or was God a player in that? If God was, why did God do this after they had originally rejected Him yet He doesn't do this for all?

[John146]

John (or anyone else) let me add 2 wrinkles to this and I think you will begin to see my issue with "free-will" outside of God's sovereignty:
1) As you agreed to above sometimes it takes LONGER for certain people to come to a point of acceptance, well what if they would have DIED before coming to that point? Does God control the circumstances of our death or is that too outside of God's will and any one of us can die at any time and God is hands off?

Please understand something about my view. I believe that God does control a lot of things, including how much opportunity to give each person to repent, but I don't believe He controls everything, including the decision that someone makes regarding whether or not to accept or reject Christ. All I can tell you is that I believe if God wants to give someone more of an opportunity to repent then He can intervene and keep that person from dying if He wants to. That's up to Him. The main point I try to make is that the only logical conclusion we can come to if we believe that He wants all people to repent and be saved is that He gives everyone the opportunity to repent and be saved. If you want to know how that all works in detail I suppose I can't do that for you to your satisfaction. All that matters to me is that you see that God loves everyone and wants everyone to repent and to be saved and that He gives everyone that opportunity.

2) Is God controlling the circumstances in someone's life to change their mind about Him or not?

I believe He can control the circumstances in someone's life in order to give them more of an opportunity to change their mind. But I don't believe He changes anyone's mind for them. He gives people the choice of whether to change their minds or not.

If so, why?

Because He wants everyone to repent and believe in His Son unto salvation.

If a person hears the gospel and refuses to believe it (which was my case and many, many others) why would God keep you alive and allow things in your life to bring you to a point of accepting Him and not do this very thing for everyone.

Because He "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). You can try to say He doesn't do that for everyone, but are you implying that you believe He gives some people enough opportunities to repent but not others? If so I disagree. But only He knows how much opportunity each person should get.

I know we will disagree but I hope you see my point.

I see your point but I also believe you need to dig even further on these issues than you have so far in order to see the truth of the matter. But I see you are making that effort and I just want to encourage you to keep going and keep pondering these things.

I have seen things in life bring people to God who earlier in their life refused to believe (including myself).... now, one has to ask themselves, are these people saved by a function of luck or was God a player in that? If God was, why did God do this after they had originally rejected Him yet He doesn't do this for all?

Because everyone is different. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another person. I didn't really need a completely life altering event to become convinced that the gospel is true but another person may need that. I just let God take care of those details and I don't sweat it. I just know that He wants everyone to repent and to be saved and that's what I concern myself with rather than figuring out exactly how He works in each person's life.

[WSGAC]

That is a question that I believe is almost impossible to answer without knowing another person's heart intimately and knowing all about them as only they and God know about themselves and their hearts. We can only know ourselves in that way so there's no way for us to determine exactly why we responded differently than someone else. Yes. Yes. I certainly don't feel that I was forced to repent and believe in Christ. If I couldn't have decided "no" instead then why didn't I just believe right away instead of going through a time of rebellion? That's a very difficult question to answer. I don't think the deciding factor is the same for everyone. I can answer for myself but not for everyone. For me that deciding factor was coming to the conclusion that there has to be more to life then just living these temporary lives and that's it. So, by coming to that conclusion I was allowing for the possibility of an afterlife and eternal life. Then later after contemplating my life and thinking about the gospel things just clicked with me that it was the truth and I accepted it, repented of my sins and put my faith in Christ. But someone else might come to a decision to believe the gospel and accept Christ a different way.

Yes, but if we're all honest here we really cannot say that we truly know why we decided "yes" for God instead of "no." All that we can really do is describe the conversion. But the reason for our own conversion is a mystery. A person might say, "I was really touched by the Word that I heard preached on a particular day, and through a process of searching came to accept Christ," but this still doesn't account for what the faith-mechanism is for why you were touched, while Joe (who heard the same message) was not. As I understand scripture, it is nothing to do with any quality or character in a person that leads to faith, for faith itself is even a gift for which we cannot take credit. So the difference between Joe, who says "no" to Christ, and Bob who says "yes" to Christ, is not to be attributed to some lack in Joe, or some surplus in Bob. In other words it is not as if Bob has a higher Faith Quotient than Joe, and thus says "yes" to Christ. It has to do with something else that is operating. Otherwise free will ends up being a flip of the coin.

[keyzer soze]

Please understand something about my view. I believe that God does control a lot of things, including how much opportunity to give each person to repent, but I don't believe He controls everything, including the decision that someone makes regarding whether or not to accept or reject Christ. All I can tell you is that I believe if God wants to give someone more of an opportunity to repent then He can intervene and keep that person from dying if He wants to. That's up to Him. The main point I try to make is that the only logical conclusion we can come to if we believe that He wants all people to repent and be saved is that He gives everyone the opportunity to repent and be saved. If you want to know how that all works in detail I suppose I can't do that for you to your satisfaction. All that matters to me is that you see that God loves everyone and wants everyone to repent and to be saved and that He gives everyone that opportunity.

I believe He can control the circumstances in someone's life in order to give them more of an opportunity to change their mind. But I don't believe He changes anyone's mind for them. He gives people the choice of whether to change their minds or not.

Because He wants everyone to repent and believe in His Son unto salvation.

Because He "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). You can try to say He doesn't do that for everyone, but are you implying that you believe He gives some people enough opportunities to repent but not others? If so I disagree. But only He knows how much opportunity each person should get.

I see your point but I also believe you need to dig even further on these issues than you have so far in order to see the truth of the matter. But I see you are making that effort and I just want to encourage you to keep going and keep pondering these things.

Because everyone is different. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another person. I didn't really need a completely life altering event to become convinced that the gospel is true but another person may need that. I just let God take care of those details and I don't sweat it. I just know that He wants everyone to repent and to be saved and that's what I concern myself with rather than figuring out exactly how He works in each person's life.

Well I have made my case as well as I can make it.

If I am not mistaken you acknowledge that God does infact:
1) pursue us and give us enough evidence to believe
2) control the termination point in our lives when we can no longer accept him (death)
3) controls things in our life that will bring new evidence or change us with circumstances in our lives
4) is all knowing and knows what criteria would work if presented to us

To me, and I believe others, when I look at the above I see God in control. Does He MAKE us choose? NO. But He is in control of our lives, He knows when we will die, and He knows what it would take to save us and thus I am left with the mystery as to why God does not keep everyone alive long enough to bring circumstances in their lives that all would be saved.

This is all I can muster on the subject but I hope it makes sense. I agree God does not FORCE the issue, and I agree that in theory we can all repent, but I also believe that God knows before hand if we will AND can further act on behalf of some to bring more evidence, more humility, etc... into someone's life to change their heart. It is for this reason that I land where I do on the topic.

God bless...

[Gadgeteer]

Not sure I want to ask this but I will anyways. How do you explain why some people reject the gospel for a period of their life but then accept it later in life after they have a change of heart?

What does "change-of-heart" mean? Specifically, from Scripture, did the Prodigal have a "change of heart" (come to his senses)? Belief can occur at any time, and a person can likewise be deceived away from belief at any time. This is why DILIGENCE is required in 2Pet1:5-11, in Heb6:11-12, and in so many other passages. We're warned time after time to guard ourselves from deceivers who can lure us away from Jesus. Col2:6-8 is a clear one, 1Jn2:26-28 is another. 2Jn1:7-9 a third; 1Tim6:20-21 a fourth. 2Cor11:3 a fifth. There are lots like this.

Romans11:18-23 speaks of men being cut off from the Vine (Jesus) for unbelief, but they can be restored if they do not continue in unbelief.

Perhaps some tragedy or circumstance humbles them and they realize the need for Christ which changes them and allows them to accept what they before could not accept. Do you believe this is salvation by "the chance of life" or do you believe that God orchestrates these events that changes a person's heart?

We have to accept what Scripture says; the "word of faith" is sufficient in everyone for belief. Acts17:26-31 asserts that God commands all men everywhere to repent, He has furnished proof to ALL MEN in Jesus' resurrection.

Yet --- Matt11:21-24, asserts that Tyre, Sidon and Sodom did not have as much chance as Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin; had the ancient cities seen Jesus as the current cities had, the ancients would have repented.

So we're told to AFFECT others' salvation, Jude23; warned not to DESTROY others' salvation, Rom14:15 & 1Cor8:11. We're told of Pharisees who can stop/shut-off men who were entering, deceiving them into being twice a child of Hell as the Pharisees were --- Matt23:13-15.

We hafta believe what Scripture says; and I think the verses we just discussed reveal much...

[Redeemed by Grace]

In this, you read Romans9:11, 13 and 15, and perceive that "God has mercy on only a FEW" (and passes over the rest). I read Romans11:32 and perceive "God has mercy on all" --- no contradiction with:

Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12) it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13) Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15) For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

I see both "Semitic View" and harmony with "having-mercy-on-all-men".
Even "foreknowledge" has a different meaning between us; you see "fore-chosen", I see correlation with Rom8:29, where "proginosko" simply means "to know before". Those whom He foreknew, are those who loved God (Rom8:28) --- the greatest commandment is to love God (Matt22:37), a commandment He expects everyone to obey...

Let's stay focused on 1 Peter... you do agree it is saying that God choses in foreknowledge BY the sanctifying work of the Spirit to obey Jesus in the gospel?

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood

[Gadgeteer]

I have seen things in life bring people to God who earlier in their life refused to believe (including myself).... now, one has to ask themselves, are these people saved by a function of luck or was God a player in that? If God was, why did God do this after they had originally rejected Him yet He doesn't do this for all?

Because everyone is different. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another person. I didn't really need a completely life altering event to become convinced that the gospel is true but another person may need that. I just let God take care of those details and I don't sweat it. I just know that He wants everyone to repent and to be saved and that's what I concern myself with rather than figuring out exactly how He works in each person's life.

What about American Indians? Eskimos? Aztecs, Incas, Aborigines, and Bushmen? Were they hopelessly condemned for all the generations before missionaries came?

Paul said, "How can they believe in whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher?" (Rm10:14)

There is no way God conveniently ordained everyone to perish for all time before missionaries. So it's more likely a person will be saved by hearing --- and that does not fit with "predestination", it fits with the idea of persuasion, that a person can be convicted by preaching. See Paul talking to king Agrippa in Acts26:28-29.

[Gadgeteer]

Let's stay focused on 1 Peter... you do agree it is saying that God choses in foreknowledge BY the sanctifying work of the Spirit to obey Jesus in the gospel?

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,...

"Prognōsis" means foreknowledge; God can see the future. Do you agree that "many are called but few are chosen" (Matt22:14) in context teaches that all (as many as you find) are called, but only those who chose to accept became "chosen"?

by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood

Do you accept that the guy in Heb10:29 was sanctified by Jesus' blood once, but now scorns that blood, tramples Jesus, and insults the Spirit?

How can we see a "unilateral (monergistic) sanctification", that cannot be volitionally accepted or rejected?