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Thread: Calvinism / pre-destination

  1. #526

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    One of the lessons that I have learned in the O.T. is that God provided for His sacrifices and it pleased Him. Look at Abraham for example, why did God provide a Ram for sacrifice instead of Isaac? Under what logic does providing someone with something for them to turn around and offer it back have meaning? In human ways = IT DOESN'T. But for the creator of everything, someone who is holy and therefore can't accept ANYTHING that is not absolutely perfect in every way, apparently it does.
    Why was Abel's sacrifice pleasing, and Cain's was not? Did either have any choice?

    God wasn't surprised by Abraham's faithfulness; perhaps He wanted to teach Abraham something. Strengthen his faith.

    God provides everything for us. You and I were born with nothing, we will die with nothing; everything is on "loan".

    But there is a treasure I can have, that I can take with me into the next life. You. And everyonen else reading this, if I can. The brothers and sisters that we love, are family; and if we can be family forever, then what joy we will have when Jesus returns. Well, for those who belong to Him, He's already returned in our hearts; there will be no great change when He comes back to earth, for we are with Him NOW in spirit and in truth just as much as we will be then.

    :-)

  2. #527
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    I get what you guys are preaching, I really do. I just think it sells the God who made all this out of NOTHING short.
    I couldn't disagree more with this statement. I don't understand how we are selling God short just because we believe He allows people to make bad choices rather than forcing them to do what He wants.

    Before creation there was NOTHING, no plan, no matter, no energy, no decision making ability or human "free-will", so for me to wrap my brain around the concept that man has "free-will" outside of God's sovereign plan when we know He knew everything before creation, I just can't do it.
    Can you clarify what you meant here exactly? I don't believe that man has free will outside of God's sovereign plan so you appear to be making a straw man argument here. I just happen to believe that part of His plan is to allow man to make free will choices. So, looking at it that way, our free will is inside of His plan because it was His plan to give us free will, not ours. We have the free will to make choices that are against His desires but not against His will and overall plan for mankind and the world. For example, here is a case of man going against God's desires:

    Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    Jesus told the Jews what He would have done if only they were willing, but they weren't willing. So, He didn't. He allowed them to choose to be willing or not. It was part of His plan to allow them to make that choice.

    But what about Christ's second coming, for example? Can anyone do anything to make it so that He doesn't return even though scripture has already declared that He will return? No. Why? Because it is God's will for Him to return and He has already determined that it will happen. No one can change that because that is His plan. That part of His plan doesn't involve allowing man to make choices of whether that will happen or not. But that doesn't mean He doesn't allow man to make choices about anything. It's His plan to allow man to make choices about some things and also His plan to do certain things that no one can keep from happening. In both cases He is fully sovereign and in control. He doesn't have to directly control everything that happens in order to be sovereign and in control. That's what I think you don't understand at this point.

  3. #528

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Why was Abel's sacrifice pleasing, and Cain's was not? Did either have any choice?

    God wasn't surprised by Abraham's faithfulness; perhaps He wanted to teach Abraham something. Strengthen his faith.

    God provides everything for us. You and I were born with nothing, we will die with nothing; everything is on "loan".

    But there is a treasure I can have, that I can take with me into the next life. You. And everyonen else reading this, if I can. The brothers and sisters that we love, are family; and if we can be family forever, then what joy we will have when Jesus returns. Well, for those who belong to Him, He's already returned in our hearts; there will be no great change when He comes back to earth, for we are with Him NOW in spirit and in truth just as much as we will be then.

    :-)
    I simply believe that at the end of the day God provides the FAITH as well in the "everything" and somehow it does please Him... as to why everyone does not believe and I have what little faith I do, I have no answer for that outside of God's grace.
    When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

  4. #529
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    One of the lessons that I have learned in the O.T. is that God provided for His sacrifices and it pleased Him.
    Hold on now. What pleased Him exactly? And are you saying He was pleased with Himself for what He did? That's not what it says. Was He pleased with Himself that He provided the sacrifices or was he pleased that His people obediently offered the sacrifices to Him? I don't see any indication that He was pleased with Himself, but rather that He was pleased when people were obedient to Him.

    Look at Abraham for example, why did God provide a Ram for sacrifice instead of Isaac? Under what logic does providing someone with something for them to turn around and offer it back have meaning?
    Did he not have any choice of whether to offer it back to Him or not? Of course he did. God was pleased with Abraham, right? Why? Because he faithfully did what God asked him to do. He wasn't forced to do it, he chose to be faithful. How else could Abraham have pleased God accept to be willingly faithful to Him?

    In your response you didn't explain how exactly someone's faith could please God if the faith is given to them by God. Can you explain that?

  5. #530

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    My understanding.

    God it taking out of the nations, by his election a people for his name. The prophets agree with that. These are the called, the foreknown, the predestined from Romans 8. For what? Salvation and all others are lost? One thing we do know from verse 23 they are those who, have the firstfruits of the Spirit and they are groaning and are relative to the rest of the world that is groaning and travailing. It is said of Mary she brought forth her firstborn son and named him Jesus. She named another son James I believe. Jesus is said to be the firstborn from the dead and by first being there it implies there will be others so born. Rom 8:29 When we are conformed to the image of this firstborn from the dead he will then be the firstborn of many (so born). Spirit is life, the indwelt Holy Spirit in us is the impregnating life of God in us who have the firstfruits of the Spirit. Firstfruits is a harvest term. The harvest of the souls of man. Christ died for all mankind but presently God is electing a people for his name for a purpose during this feast of firstfruits of the Spirit. This is done through the faith of Christ and the gifts given to men for the building up of his body for a purpose. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. The rest of the harvest does not take place until after the appearing of Jesus again. The feast of trumpets. The binding of Satan so there can be no deception. The day of atonement. Then the priests of God can begin to teach mankind the ways of God and the big harvest can begin. The Lamb Jesus was slain before Adam was created. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Judgement, teaching and so forth and if necessary then and only then the lake of fire.

    Let God be God.

  6. #531
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by keyzer soze View Post
    I simply believe that at the end of the day God provides the FAITH as well in the "everything" and somehow it does please Him... as to why everyone does not believe and I have what little faith I do, I have no answer for that outside of God's grace.
    Heb 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Can you tell me exactly how you interpret this verse? It seems to me that the keyser soze translation (KST) would translate it this way:

    But without God giving us faith it is impossible for us to please him with the faith that He gave us and didn't come at all from a willing choice to believe in Him: for he that comes to God must be forced to come to God and must have God give him faith so that he will have no choice but to believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that He forces to diligently seek him.

    Is that an accurate portrayal of how you understand that verse? If not, I apologize, and I'm certainly not trying to purposely misrepresent your view, but I'm just showing my current understanding of what you believe.

  7. #532

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    2Pe 1:5

    Is this fun, delving into Scripture so deeply? Hope so!

    :-)
    Great, I agree, before I get to tea, let's try and set a foundation for before verse 5,

    1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


    I don't see anything here saying what I did, only what I have received.

    Do you agree?

    If not where does verse 1-4 say, 'it's what I did?'

    Now for tea.

  8. #533

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Can you explain how exactly your faith could be pleasing to God if it originated from Him and not at all from yourself? Wouldn't it make more sense that God would be pleased with someone who, when faced with the choice to either put their faith in Him or reject Him, decided to put their faith in Him? I can't figure out why God would be pleased with His own faith that He gave you.

    Psalm 69:30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. 31This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

    Did God give a praise song to David to sing and did God give David the desire to "magnify him with thanksgiving" or did David choose to do that on his own volition? If it was his own choice then that means he pleased God by the things he chose to do (praise God's name with a song and magnify Him with thanksgiving).

    Prov 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

    Is this talking about God determining a man's ways for him and then being pleased with that? Or is it implying that a man can choose ways that please the Lord without the Lord choosing his ways for him? I would choose the latter, how about you?

    It seems to me that the only way to please God is by willingly putting our faith in Him, not by Him giving us faith and then Him being pleased with the faith He gave us.
    Forgive me if I am not looking deep enough here, but if I look quickly, I'd say I agree with you.


    My question is where is the starting point of your or my faith.

    Who is the Author?

    Once we have recieved faith, it is our, & we DO NEED TO EXERCISE IT!

    I hope I am being understood.

    God bless!

  9. #534
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Yes I do agree, but I do not omit John15:16 'You did not choose Me, but I chose you'
    Context is very important. Can you tell me exactly how you interpret John 15:16? He was speaking specifically to His disciples there so He was speaking in terms of having chosen them. Was He saying He chose them to salvation? I don't believe so. Look at the following passage:

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    Can you see that even Judas Iscariot was chosen? In what sense? Not to salvation since he wasn't saved. The sense in which he and the other disciples were chosen was to be Christ's apostles and His closest disciples. That's it. There's no reason to read any more into John 15:16 than that.

    Again it comes down to Who is the Author of your faith?
    Again, context is important. Sometimes, when scripture speaks of "the faith" or "our faith" it's not speaking of our individual faith in Christ but rather is referring to the gospel or the Christian faith in general (Christianity). Another way that scripture interprets the Greek word translated as "Author" in the verse you're referencing there is "Captain". He is the Captain of the Christian faith. The Christian faith or Christianity is all about Him. He is our leader. The verse that says He is the author or captain of our faith is not saying He gives us our faith but is saying He is the Leader, the Author, the Captain of the Christian faith.

    How much did you DO to be saved?
    I did what Paul and Silas said one has to DO to be saved, how about yourself?

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I DO to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

  10. #535
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Forgive me if I am not looking deep enough here, but if I look quickly, I'd say I agree with you.


    My question is where is the starting point of your or my faith.

    Who is the Author?

    Once we have recieved faith, it is our, & we DO NEED TO EXERCISE IT!

    I hope I am being understood.

    God bless!
    I'm not sure if I'm understanding you or not. Do you believe God gives faith to everyone and then everyone has the choice of whether to exercise it or not?

  11. #536

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Well, not a major tea drinker; but I'll take tea any day over coffee! Blech! Hot tea is good with Chinese food; don't like green tea at all! Almost as bad as coffee!

    Is this fun, delving into Scripture so deeply? Hope so!

    :-)
    Must agree with you about coffee, but we don't want any coffee bashers in here, so let's just wisper about this!

    I am off to bed past 10 pm here, but I trust to get back to 2 Pet 2 fro verse 5 tomorrow.

    Thanks so much for your lovely temprement.

    Blessings

  12. #537

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Why was Abel's sacrifice pleasing, and Cain's was not? Did either have any choice?

    God wasn't surprised by Abraham's faithfulness; perhaps He wanted to teach Abraham something. Strengthen his faith.

    God provides everything for us. You and I were born with nothing, we will die with nothing; everything is on "loan".

    But there is a treasure I can have, that I can take with me into the next life. You. And everyonen else reading this, if I can. The brothers and sisters that we love, are family; and if we can be family forever, then what joy we will have when Jesus returns. Well, for those who belong to Him, He's already returned in our hearts; there will be no great change when He comes back to earth, for we are with Him NOW in spirit and in truth just as much as we will be then.

    :-)
    Gad I would like your thought on the following and not yours only but all who read.

    There is a statement made in the word of God and there is a promise made in the word of God and both as far as I can tell were before it was said, "Let there be light"

    Statement: the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. -------Before Adam brought death to all men.
    Promise: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; -------

    Faith in Hebrews 11. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Could faith there, not be what God, through Abraham or anyone else named, was doing to bring about the Statement and Promise above. Remember these all died, in faith.

    Is not the Statement and the Promise above not what took place in Galatians 3:23-25 called the faith to be revealed?

  13. #538
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Must agree with you about coffee, but we don't want any coffee bashers in here, so let's just wisper about this!

    I am off to bed past 10 pm here,
    Wow. Where are you located if you don't mind my asking?

  14. #539

    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm understanding you or not. Do you believe God gives faith to everyone and then everyone has the choice of whether to exercise it or not?
    I believe God makes us alive and gives us faith, Eph 2, but it's ok if you believe that God gives faith to every one.

    The main thing is we STAY in faith.

    God bless, sweet dreams

  15. #540
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    Re: Calvinism / pre-destination

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    I believe God makes us alive and gives us faith, Eph 2, but it's ok if you believe that God gives faith to every one.
    No, I was asking you if you believe God gives faith to everyone and then requires everyone to exercise it. I'm not saying I believe that. I don't believe God gives people saving faith at all. I believe everyone must choose whether to have faith in Christ or not.

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