Calvinism / pre-destination

[Gadgeteer]

Romans10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

A quick post here about this portion you spoke of in your quote.

This isn't speaking of getting faith from heaven, but of going into heaven to bring Christ DOWN.

Hi again! It's not the Romans passage that is a "foundational refutation", but Deuteronomy30, especially verse 12:

"(The word-of-faith) is not in Heaven that you should say, 'Who will go ...get it for us and give it to us, to make us hear it that we may observe it? ....it is very near you (not too difficult nor out of reach)."

Romans connects, in that Paul says "it's the SAME word of faith that we are (now!) preaching!" And this connects to Acts17:26-31, where he says "though it's not far from any of us".

But the "foundational refutation" of Reformed Theology, is that RT insists God has to GIVE it to us (monergistic regeneration!) to MAKE us hear it (by His sovereign heart-change), so that we may (will!) observe it. I can't understand how Deut30:12 could ever fit into the Reformed View. The only thing I've heard, is that "they were under the Old Covenant, it doesn't apply to us". But Paul said it's the same as they were preaching --- and if predestination is true now, then it would have been true back then too. So that's not an answer...

We need to notice, that Romans is written to people who have ALREADY received faith.

Yes. And then what? Romans 6 eloquently speaks of what "born-again" means; he uses five words interchangeably, "died/crucified/buried/immersed/UNITED" with Christ, into His death, and then into His resurrection. The old man/woman dies, and "as He was raised from the dead so too shall we walk in newness of life". We die to sin, and are made alive to God through Jesus. Yet the context really seems to convey a message of "continue", doesn't it? "Do not go on presenting your bodies as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead ...instruments of righteousness to God."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart". This is obviously to those who have faith, or do you believe that Non Christians have the word in their hearts?

What do you think of the connection to Deuteronomy30, verses 11-20? Is the word only in believers? Or was it also in those who, in Deut30:17, can turn away disobey and perish?

When these passages say "it is not far nor difficult", doesn't Reformed perceive that it is infinitely too far and difficult for those who perish (who were not "sovereignly-elected" and not "monergistically regenerated")?

(Conversely, if he's thinking of "only-in-a-few", then why would he say "it's not far from those for whom God placed-it-inside-them"?)

Notice your quote from Rom 10 is very different from the New King James;
Your quote;'says it is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it, give it to us to make us hear it & observe it'

Can you see the difference, hence your different interpretation of Christ GIVING faith.

Well, I looked it up in NKJV on blueletterbible.org; it's close enough -- verse 8 is referring to Deut30:14. Verse 6 (the thing about "ascending into Heaven to get it for us") is referring to Deut30:12. The question, is "does it read as though it's only in the hearts of a FEW, or is it not-far/not-difficult/near to everyone, even those who (in Deut40:17-18) can turn away disobey and perish?"

We do not need to go to heaven or abyss to get Christ[The faith giver], because; "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart".

That's right; now, can we come to agreement on whether that means "only a few", or "everyone"?

I hope this makes sense?

Yes, perfect sense! I'm ashamed that I didn't make the connection between Deuteromony30 and Romans10 until last year. It had been there for a couple thousand years, but I hadn't realized it. Then I read Acts17, about how God determines for each person to seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and FIND Him, though He's not far from anyone; and He commands all men everywhere to repent. And I realized this fits perfectly, it's just another piece of the same puzzle! What possible way can these passages fit into Reformed's premise that: "God opens the hearts of only a FEW, and those whom He regenerates irresistibly believe"? I can't see any way to make it fit.

Oh Yes, for sure come for lots of biscuits, we can even have them with water with them, your company will just be a pleasure I AM SURE!

As will yours! :-)

And for Americans who may not know, "biscuits" are cookies. So milk is also appropriate, perhaps chocolate milk.

But -- if milk comes from cows, and chocolate milk comes from brown cows, dare we wonder where POWDERED milk comes from? Some questions we just don't want answered!!!

[Redeemed by Grace]

Are you a missionary? What am I assuming?
So help me understand, will you? If all is ordained by God, and we do not affect anyone (either positively OR negatively), then what's the purpose of preaching?

You and I are not God, are we? So why would we want to position ourselves as such... for that is what is done when we say why bother? Abraham trusted God with knife in the air and Isaac on the alter... when God stated stop.... Abraham knew that God would do the right thing anyway God would do it and God knew what Abraham would do... but the action still had to be done... So we step out in faith trusting each day that God will provide.... that my friend is the purpose of preaching and anything we do for that matter...

And are we not all missionaries?

No.... I get paid to persuade, to position, to explain, to challenge conventional thinking, to sell, to consult, to think differently... But never for debate. So if I believed, 'what's the use, God will do what He has ordained', then I don't eat.... However, we are to farm the land, to till, to plant, to water when dry, to weed, but it's the Lord who provides the increase. God declares man's part of His will... man misses God's part.

If I seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide as I do my part, then He is glorified and I am blessed...

[Gadgeteer]

You and I are not God, are we? So why would we want to position ourselves as such... for that is what is done when we say why bother?

No, we're not "positioning ourselves as God", but rather struggling with whether sovereign predestination is the theme of Scripture or not...

Abraham trusted God with knife in the air and Isaac on the alter... when God stated stop.... Abraham knew that God would do the right thing anyway God would do it and God knew what Abraham would do... but the action still had to be done... So we step out in faith trusting each day that God will provide.... that my friend is the purpose of preaching and anything we do for that matter...

But if those-who-are-predestined will be saved anyway, then what good is preaching? When Jude says "save others, snatching them from the fire", does he really mean "oh if they're predestined then God will use your words to save them, but you don't really snatch anyone from the fire"?

And are we not all missionaries?

Touche'. :-)

...yet, there are those who wear the mantle, as a "profession".

No.... I get paid to persuade, to position, to explain, to challenge conventional thinking, to sell, to consult, to think differently... But never for debate.

You're in SALES. Uhm, wasn't Paul in "sales", in Acts26:28-29?

What about John in Jn20:31?

So if I believed, 'what's the use, God will do what He has ordained', then I don't eat.... However, we are to farm the land, to till, to plant, to water when dry, to weed, but it's the Lord who provides the increase. God declares man's part of His will... man misses God's part.

And who decides which field bears good fruit, and which field bears thorns? You know that "Reformed Theology" asserts ultimately it's GOD who decides.

...but doesn't the field itself make the decision, in Hebrews6:7-8?

If I seek Him in faith each day and ask for wisdom and step out in faith trusting that He will provide as I do my part, then He is glorified and I am blessed...

Hmmm; can't argue with that. But --- who is doing the "seeking-in-faith", and Who is doing the "receiving"?

;-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

No, we're not "positioning ourselves as God", but rather struggling with whether sovereign predestination is the theme of Scripture or not... But if those-who-are-predestined will be saved anyway, then what good is preaching? When Jude says "save others, snatching them from the fire", does he really mean "oh if they're predestined then God will use your words to save them, but you don't really snatch anyone from the fire"?
Touche'. :-)

It's been hard to show you that many aspects you are positioning are in violent agreement with what I have been declaring... You assume that everyone in church is a born again believer. I declare only those who have His Spirit living within them are... Thus if His Spirit lives in you and also lives in me, then we are brothers. You witness; I witness. You learn; I learn. You heed; I heed. I say God saved me; you say something like [decided]

[Gadgeteer]

It's been hard to show you that many aspects you are positioning are in violent agreement with what I have been declaring...

"Agreement"? Or "disagreement"?

You assume that everyone in church is a born again believer.

No, I don't. In fact, most people in church have no idea, and will find themselves afoul of passages like Matt7:21-23 and Rev3:14-22...

I declare only those who have His Spirit living within them are... Thus if His Spirit lives in you and also lives in me, then we are brothers. You witness; I witness. You learn; I learn. You heed; I heed.

You and I can stand together, and see a third person's works; if we see fornication or drunkenness or cursing or any other number of things Scripture says "accompany the unsaved", you and I will agree they need to believe in Jesus for salvation. But in regard to our selves, I see many warnings and severe diligence admonished time after time in the Bible, and you see "perseverance of the saints".

I say God saved me; you say something like [decided]

I say the same thing; it's all of Him and nothing of me, yet I perceive Scripture teaches "His sufficient gift of grace, received and abided-in by voluntary faith".

As long as we are both walking in the Spirit, each of us has every expectation of spending eternity with the other; I'm very happy about the prospect, I pray that I have not broken your patience enough that you don't feel the same.

:-)

[Noeb]

The common understanding is that "when Adam died, all died" (Rom5:15, 2Cor5:14).

I don't have much time so I'll have to address the other things tomorrow. Both of these are about physical death, not "spiritual death". See surrounding context.

[glad4mercy]

I don't have much time so I'll have to address the other things tomorrow. Both of these are about physical death, not "spiritual death". See surrounding context.

Yes, in a sense you're correct, but you do agree that we inherited a sinful nature from Adam do you not? Now I don't believe anyone goes to Hell for Adam's sin, we only go to Hell for our own sins and for rejecting Christ. Yet we inherited a propensity to sin that only Christ can break. We could start there in our search for an accurate soteriology.

[keyzer soze]

Question for Gadgeteer and John146, what happened to the children who would have been killed by this command given by God in Deut 20?

16 Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you,

Please explain why God would do this and where you believe the souls of the children would spend eternity and why.

[Redeemed by Grace]

"Agreement"? Or "disagreement"? No, I don't. In fact, most people in church have no idea, and will find themselves afoul of passages like Matt7:21-23 and Rev3:14-22... You and I can stand together, and see a third person's works; if we see fornication or drunkenness or cursing or any other number of things Scripture says "accompany the unsaved", you and I will agree they need to believe in Jesus for salvation. But in regard to our selves, I see many warnings and severe diligence admonished time after time in the Bible, and you see "perseverance of the saints". I say the same thing; it's all of Him and nothing of me, yet I perceive Scripture teaches "His sufficient gift of grace, received and abided-in by voluntary faith".

As long as we are both walking in the Spirit, each of us has every expectation of spending eternity with the other; I'm very happy about the prospect, I pray that I have not broken your patience enough that you don't feel the same.

:-)

Then this condition is within man's hands?

[glad4mercy]

Then this condition is within man's hands?

I heard an excellent sermon at church on discipleship yesterday, and one of the points was that salvation is a one time event, but discipleship is something that we must commit ourselves to on a daily basis. Whoever desires to be a disciple must deny Himself, take up his cross daily and follow Jesus. As far as walking in the Spirit it is when we daily submit ourselves to the direction of the Holy Spirit and walk in His Grace, power, and leading. So in a sense this condition is in our hands, for while the power and the enabling is not of us, it seems often that the choice to receive the power and enabling is up to us.

[tea]

Hi Gad,

I trust you are having a blessed day!
Did you imply you were in London,or coming for a visit, though you'll have to come up North a bit?
It will be great to get a visit from you. (Email address deleted for poster's safety.)

Just wondering if you got this part, and have you noticed the different way you've put Rom 10 on the previous page?
From post 584, I posted; 'Notice your quote from Rom 10 is very different from the New King James;
Your quote;'says it is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it, give it to us to make us hear it & observe it'

Can you see the difference, hense your different interpretation of Christ GIVING faith.'?

[John146]

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

God gives faith; God tests for faith. Every man who comes to faith doesn't decide for Jesus, but believes...

Why would God need to test faith that He has given? Does He say "Okay, let's see if the faith is working or not..."? Seems silly, right? And that's what I'm trying to illustrate. If our faith is from Him there would be no need for Him to test it! But if He requires something of us then it makes sense that He would test us to see if we are meeting His requirements. If He gives us faith and does everything for us without us being responsible to freely choose to either do what is right or what is wrong then what would be the need for testing? Our faith would be guaranteed to pass the test if it was from Him so there would be no need for testing our faith whatsoever in that case.

Paul and Silas didn't say to the jailer 'chose Jesus' when he asked what he should do... they stated 'believe'.

Acts 16:29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

But did the jailer not have the choice of whether to believe or not? I'm not seeing your point at all here.

What is missing in your definition is sin... You cannot separate sin from salvation, The reformed position would declare all men are sinful.

As would any Christian position. It's always funny when those of the Reformed persuasion make statements like that as if they have the only view that teaches a certain thing.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

And that no one seeks for God:

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

No one seeks for God on their own accord but what about when the gospel is preached to them and the Holy Spirit prompts them and convicts them? Can people seek God then? If not then how could God reward anyone for diligently seeking Him?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

That the Gospel of Salvation is to be preach to the whole world and is wide open and not closed:

Mark 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

It must be closed to some in your view because you believe some are unable to respond with faith. How can you say the gospel is open to them if they have no opportunity and/or no ability to respond to the gospel with faith?

That all men love the dark:

John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
12:46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

Not all men continue to love the dark, though. When confronted with the consequences of remaining in the dark as well as the hope of eternal life through loving the light, which is Christ, people then must choose whether to embrace the light or remain in the dark.

And because salvation is of the Lord, it is the Lord who works within the man to walk in obedience according to His will.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

True belief in Jesus is and walks obedience; for he who does not obey [believe] the Son will not see life.

Does God keep people from being able to obey the Son? Who is unable to obey the Son? Don't people have the choice of whether to obey the Son or not? Does God force anyone to obey the Son?

Which then comes to the famously debated passages against Reformed Theology:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So in this statement it is wide open, yet conditional to the whoever. So the reformed position would declare that where it's of God choosing or the Arminian it is of man's choosing, God's love for the world does not equate that He saves the entire world, only to those who believe... so by outcome it is the same.

Why would God not even give the opportunity to be saved to some of those who He loves? Please explain that.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Do you believe that God calls/invites some to salvation who He does not want to be saved and who are incapable of answering/accepting His call/invitation?

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

If salvation is all of God and nothing of us why would we need to be "diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you"? If it's all up to God it wouldn't matter how diligent we were, would it? Don't you believe that our own diligence has nothing to do with whether or not we're saved?

[John146]

I have never found "exclusive calling" in Scripture. I like how Jesus 'splained it in Matt22; everyone-in-view ("as many as you find") were invited, each chose for himself whether or not to come.

Exactly. In the Reformed view salvation is not offered because they know if it is offered then that implies that the ones it is offered to must choose to accept or reject it. That is not how they believe salvation works. Yet, Jesus clearly portrayed salvation as being something that is offered and then accepted or rejected in Matt 22:1-14. There is simply no way to reconcile the Reformed view with Matt 22:1-14.

[John146]

But what's the goal? Romans10 says that people won't (aren't likely to) believe without preaching. This is something I've never understood about those who hold "Reformed Theology". If regeneration is monergistic and sovereignly-wrought, why do we ALSO need preaching? Why isn't God's sovereign regeneration sufficient enough, that it needs additional dialog? No, persuasion is replete in Scripture. It's what happened in Acts2:37, it was Paul with king Agrippa in Acts26:28-29, and it was the reason John wrote his whole Testament in Jn20:31! Persuasion is at odds with sovereign-election and GIFTED faith!

I couldn't agree more. If faith is given to people then why did Paul spend so much time trying to reason with people and to persuade them to believe (Acts 17-18)? It seems to me that if faith was given by God then all we would need to do is preach the gospel and leave it at that. There would be no need to try to persuade people if it's completely up to God and not up to them at all to decide whether or not to believe the gospel. Why didn't Paul just preach the gospel and move on if faith is given to people rather than people needing to be persuaded to choose to believe?

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 4And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 2And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them. 3And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. 4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Why would all that time reasoning with them and persuading them be required if faith was simply given to people? I don't see how reason and persuasion would have anything to do with it if people are not responsible to choose how to respond to what they have heard.

Notice what follows the passage I quoted from Acts 18 above:

5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. 6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Was Paul just wasting his time trying to reason with and persuade the Jews to believe in Jesus as their Messiah/Christ or did he do that because he knew it was their choice of whether or not to accept what he was preaching? If they had no ability to accept what he was preaching why would God have led him to preach to them? It would have been a complete waste of time and effort in that case.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Why would God need to test faith that He has given?

The test is for our benefit, proofing to us the metal of our faith to us....


James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;


Quite biblically obvious, really.