Calvinism / pre-destination

[tea]

It reads to me as though the word-of-faith (the message of Jesus' grace, His dying-on-the-Cross --- as Acts17:31 says "He furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead") --- the message is given to everyone. Each can either decide to accept the message and to love God and Jesus, or each can decide to love sin.

One decision leads to light and life, the other leads to death and darkness. That fits Romans2:6-8, doesn't it?

:-)

I see the way you see it,[I don't believe all can choose] I just believe and see it differently,doesn't make us less than brothers.

I'll read it again, but posting Gadget in with me possibly kind of mis/links.

Thanks for posting, I still need to try get to your other post.

[Brother Mark]

Thanks for showing me how you see it. Your last question is one for the other 2 threads in here, let's be fair to the thread Mark.

Peace

It is fair to the thread Tea. It deals with election. If Jesus loves his enemies, would he create them for the purpose of sending them to hell? If he doesn't love his enemies, then loving our enemies is not God like and why would Jesus tell us to do something he himself refuses to do?

It goes right to the heart of the issue. Does Jesus love his enemies enough to save them? Or does he love them just enough to create them for the purpose of spending eternity in hell? (I don't think any body would call creating something specifically for eternal torment is loving, but who knows, they might.)

So does Jesus love his enemies? If so, what does that motivate him to do for them?

[tea]

Hi, Tea! I don't believe Matt7:24-27 is speaking only of the Disciples. (But, then, you knew I was gonna say that! )

Matt7:21-23 says "Not EVERYONE who calls Me 'Lord, Lord', will enter Heaven but only those who DO My will."

Verses 24-27 continue that, "THEREFORE everyone WHO hears My owrds and does them ...is wise... he who does not do them ...is foolish..."

So "everyone who calls Me LORD, LORD" (the twice-name I'm told was an endearing, intimate address) seems to me to be everyone, not just the twelve...

Ok, I wasn't expecting anything[no preconcieved thoughts].

I thought you'd go to the begining of Mt 5 and agree, as there scripture tells us , He was addressing His disciples, so this I accept as truth.

I do bear in mind that as He taught His disciples, He was aware of the Pharisees, who also used;' Lord, Lord...'

Hence, anyone who hears and obeys, is choosen by God for this purpose, this does not negate God's sovereign act of grace toward the choosen.

[tea]

It's my perception, but I don't think they are words added to what Jesus was teaching. The "king", is God; who was not invited? Jews first, and then Gentiles, "everyone-you-find". Did the king decide anything? No. Many refused --- we're told the reasons for three refusals, business and farming and refusing-to-put-on-clean-clothes (he didn't really repent).

I don't feel we'll get it right in here Gado. You see it from 1 angle, me another, hence we read the scriptures with our understanding. I see myself as dead, and being made alive COMPLETELY by HIM and nothing of my own will. Only there after did I have a choice , but not before.

Those parables can imply that it was all man's choice, but when I look at the word in entirety, I see Him acting sovereignly and I can't see Him contradicting Himself from Rom 9 etc.

I am content to part ways with you in this discussion, as on the open board, it seems to me we're not making headway now.

Thanks for being my bro, and making me laugh joyously, and keep up all the good love and peace.

Love to you

[Gadgeteer]

Ok, I wasn't expecting anything [no preconceived thoughts].

I thought you'd go to the begining of Mt 5 and agree, as there scripture tells us , He was addressing His disciples, so this I accept as truth.

Well, was He speaking to disciples about disciples? Or speaking to disciples about people-in-general? Also, there are many more than just 12 disciples --- consider John6:

"As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him any more. Jesus said therefore to the twelve..." Jn6:66-67.

So how many disciples were there (who withdrew and weren't walking with Him), other than the twelve? Apparently several...

I do bear in mind that as He taught His disciples, He was aware of the Pharisees, who also used;' Lord, Lord...'

Hence, anyone who hears and obeys, is chosen by God for this purpose, this does not negate God's sovereign act of grace toward the chosen.

We still have not resolved if God does something unique towards the "chosen" that He does not do towards the rest. Acts10:34-35 says He doesn't --- but those who come to Him, He welcomes. For Him to choose people before they revere/seek, that would be what Peter calls "partiality/bias", wouldn't it?

I don't feel we'll get it right in here. You see it from 1 angle, me another, hence we read the scriptures with our understanding. I see myself as dead, and being made alive COMPLETELY by HIM and nothing of my own will. Only there after did I have a choice , but not before.

But is there any verse which says that (especially "life before choice")? And Jn20:31 and Jn5:40 place "belief", before "made-alive/have-life".

Those parables can imply that it was all man's choice, but when I look at the word in entirety, I see Him acting sovereignly and I can't see Him contradicting Himself from Rom 9 etc.

Romans9 has an answer; mostly, it parallels Gal4:21-31. (Rom9:8 is identical in concept to Gal3:29.) Allegories of two covenants, one uses Isaac and Ishmael, the other Jacob and Esau.

I am content to part ways with you in this discussion, as on the open board, it seems to me we're not making headway now.

As you wish. :-)

I've said there is a time when the topic matters (when either of us suffers temptation/persecution/affliction), and a time when it does not. Our "job" is to love and encourage each other in Christ, to build and not tear down, to strengthen and not to destroy; to promote love and fellowship, to embody Christ enough that the world will want what we have. When we're together with Jesus at His return, will it matter? Not a bit! For you and I and as many as we have brought with us will be family, forever. I'm more than okay with that! :-)

Thanks for being my bro, and making me laugh joyously, and keep up all the good love and peace.

The privilege and pleasure is mine!

Love to you

You also!
Or should I use the British retort, "And you!"
(It's been too long since I've heard that!)

God bless you!!!

[tea]

'Blessed are those who are poor in spitit...'

Lord may I continuely recognise that I am poor, that nothing, even my faith is from myself, but all that I have is from You, O Lord , My God and King.

[Brother Mark]

'Blessed are those who are poor in spitit...'

Amen on that one! That's one of my favorite passages in all of scripture! If there was more required than being poor in spirit, I would never make it.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Grace saves RGB. Salvation comes through faith but by grace. So in that sense, faith doesn't save, grace does. Thought perhaps some would consider that semantics.

Also, I can have faith in a boat, but that won't save me. Or I can have faith in a chair, but that won't save me. And so on. So faith doesn't save. The Object of our faith is Who saves. But again, some might consider that semantics.

Sorry Mark for my delay, for I've been out.

You are right about worldly faith, it will not save you. Amen! That is why God given faith does.... The difference between a real christian and a look-alike christian is within the metal of their faith... Faith from God = The indwelling of His Spirit is true faith. Faith from within and from self will is false faith and it won't save you as you say and I agree.

I would plead with any one that one need's the Faith from Above, and all one needs really is to understand that they just ask God for it.... and when we do, then we receive His faith and become His child. everything else is intimation.

[Noeb]

Sorry Mark for my delay, for I've been out.

You are right about worldly faith, it will not save you. Amen! That is why God given faith does.... The difference between a real christian and a look-alike christian is within the metal of their faith... Faith from God = The indwelling of His Spirit is true faith. Faith from within and from self will is false faith and it won't save you as you say and I agree.

I would plead with any one that one need's the Faith from Above, and all one needs really is to understand that they just ask God for it.... and when we do, then we receive His faith and become His child. everything else is intimation.

Worldly faith is faith placed in the world. Godly faith is faith placed in God. It's the same faith given man made in His image.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Worldly faith is faith placed in the world. Godly faith is faith placed in God. It's the same faith given man made in His image.

I respectful disagree.. As Mark declared about having faith in a chair or a plane is not really faith... Temporal faith changes, adapts, molds, conforms. Eternal faith is given from the One Who Is Eternal.

I can believe that Mormonism is the right religion... Would that faith be be considered godly? To one who is a Mormon, they'd say yes. I would declare differently, thus why I don't beveieve that it is, for I have been given the wisdom of God to know differently, and to know better... My faith is from above....

[Noeb]

I respectful disagree.. As Mark declared about having faith in a chair or a plane is not really faith... Temporal faith changes, adapts, molds, conforms. Eternal faith is given from the One Who Is Eternal.

I can believe that Mormonism is the right religion... Would that faith be be considered godly? To one who is a Mormon, they'd say yes. I would declare differently, thus why I don't beveieve that it is, for I have been given the wisdom of God to know differently, and to know better... My faith is from above....

in that quote, Mark didn't say faith in a chair was not faith. I don't see all these different faiths in scripture. I just see faith. Temporal, saving, etc...where are they?

[Gadgeteer]

Sorry Mark for my delay, for I've been out.

You are right about worldly faith, it will not save you. Amen! That is why God given faith does....

RBG, where in Scripture is faith-to-salvation given to men by God?

•· It's not Romans12:2, this is speaking of believers (already!), and is "Semitic" (anthropromorphism)
•· It's not 1Cor12:9, that is a spiritual gift given to one believer and not another believer
•· It's not part of "gifted repentance" 2Tim2:25, another "Semitic" & "come-to-their-senses" is clear

OTOH, saving faith is received by God from men in Heb11:6. And in Acts10:34-35 (where your view of "gifted-faith" is God being partial/unjust, that Peter says He's not!). Saving-faith came when we were dead in Eph2:3-5. "Life" comes from faith in Jn20:31, and Jn5:40.

Can you please tell us where in Scripture is the idea that "God-gives-faith and THEN men are saved", or "gifted-faith/life/regeneration BEFORE men turn to God"?
•· It's not in 2Cor4:3-4 (2Cor3:16 says "men turn to God before veil-over-eyes removed)
•· It's not 1Cor2:14 (1Cor2:12 says we believe and receive the Spirit before spiritual things taught)
•· It's not Ezk36:26-27 -- Ezk11:18-21 men turn to God and THEN get new hearts (those who won't turn, condemned)

The difference between a real Christian and a look-alike Christian is within the metal of their faith... Faith from God = The indwelling of His Spirit is true faith.

Romans2:4-8 says God LEADS men to repentance, but stubborn unrepentance stores up wrath for themselves. If "faith" is given to men by God, then on what are men judged?

Faith from within and from self will is false faith and it won't save you as you say and I agree.

Faith from within is what Paul asserted 1Tim4:16 --- it does save. It is Hebrews11:6, and saves. It is 1Pet1:9, and saves. It is Jesus in Luke21:19 and John6:40 and John20:29, and does save.

In Matt9:22 Jesus healed the woman and said "YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU".

I would plead with any one that one needs the Faith from Above, and all one needs really is to understand that they just ask God for it.... and when we do, then we receive His faith and become His child. everything else is intimation.

How can one ask God for faith, before he has faith enough to ask? Does he not believe WHEN he asks for faith?

You and I have gone around and around in many discussions; but you have never supported the idea of "gifted-faith" with precise Bible verses. I've been both direct and precise in this post --- will you consider that faith is something men decide, and God receives? That makes sense in Jesus' rebuke of Matt11:24-27, where the current audience had more ability to believe than the ancients, but Jesus condemned them because they refused to believe. It makes sense in Jesus' condemnation of John5:39-47 --- where they studied Scriptures but refused to believe in Him, BECAUSE they sought their own glory and because they WOULD not love God.

"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind!" Matt22:37

Love God. That's a command to BELIEVE. Where is "gifted-faith" in that? Will you consider passages like Acts17:26-31, where God determines all men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might FIND Him, though He's not far from any person, and He commands all men everywhere to repent?

God commanding men to repent --- is God commanding men to love Him --- is God commanding men to BELIEVE. With respect --- where in that is "God gives faith TO men"?

[Redeemed by Grace]

RBG, where in Scripture is faith-to-salvation given to men by God?

•· It's not Romans12:2, this is speaking of believers (already!), and is "Semitic" (anthropromorphism)
•· It's not 1Cor12:9, that is a spiritual gift given to one believer and not another believer
•· It's not part of "gifted repentance" 2Tim2:25, another "Semitic" & "come-to-their-senses" is clear

OTOH, saving faith is received by God from men in Heb11:6. And in Acts10:34-35 (where your view of "gifted-faith" is God being partial/unjust, that Peter says He's not!). Saving-faith came when we were dead in Eph2:3-5. "Life" comes from faith in Jn20:31, and Jn5:40.

Can you please tell us where in Scripture is the idea that "God-gives-faith and THEN men are saved", or "gifted-faith/life/regeneration BEFORE men turn to God"?
•· It's not in 2Cor4:3-4 (2Cor3:16 says "men turn to God before veil-over-eyes removed)
•· It's not 1Cor2:14 (1Cor2:12 says we believe and receive the Spirit before spiritual things taught)
•· It's not Ezk36:26-27 -- Ezk11:18-21 men turn to God and THEN get new hearts (those who won't turn, condemned)
Romans2:4-8 says God LEADS men to repentance, but stubborn unrepentance stores up wrath for themselves. If "faith" is given to men by God, then on what are men judged? Faith from within is what Paul asserted 1Tim4:16 --- it does save. It is Hebrews11:6, and saves. It is 1Pet1:9, and saves. It is Jesus in Luke21:19 and John6:40 and John20:29, and does save.

In Matt9:22 Jesus healed the woman and said "YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU".
How can one ask God for faith, before he has faith enough to ask? Does he not believe WHEN he asks for faith?

You and I have gone around and around in many discussions; but you have never supported the idea of "gifted-faith" with precise Bible verses. I've been both direct and precise in this post --- will you consider that faith is something men decide, and God receives? That makes sense in Jesus' rebuke of Matt11:24-27, where the current audience had more ability to believe than the ancients, but Jesus condemned them because they refused to believe. It makes sense in Jesus' condemnation of John5:39-47 --- where they studied Scriptures but refused to believe in Him, BECAUSE they sought their own glory and because they WOULD not love God.

"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind!" Matt22:37

Love God. That's a command to BELIEVE. Where is "gifted-faith" in that? Will you consider passages like Acts17:26-31, where God determines all men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might FIND Him, though He's not far from any person, and He commands all men everywhere to repent?

God commanding men to repent --- is God commanding men to love Him --- is God commanding men to BELIEVE. With respect --- where in that is "God gives faith TO men"?

Hi Gadgeteer,

I wish I could help you understand it, but but faith is from God.


1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

[Noeb]

Careful Gadget. Scripture does not say anywhere that God leads us to repentance. It says the goodness of God leads us to repentance. That's the way he made us, showing his power in Egypt to have a people to bring Messiah through, his longsuffering of sin, sending his Son for the gospel, Scripture to tell us all about it, and his word that cuts to the intent of the heart.

[Noeb]

Hi Gadgeteer,

I wish I could help you understand it, but but faith is from God.


1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Doesn't say anything about faith RBG.