Calvinism / pre-destination

[Gadgeteer]

After years and years it is more muddy than ever. Like trying to understand the trinity.

Hi, "Silver"! Not when you look at the whole, and realize contextual refutations of Calvinistic understandings.

Recognize that Calvinism founds on four passages --- Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom9:11-23, and Rom8:29-35. There are about 35 "secondary passages", like Mark4:11-12. Luke8:13-15. John6:37, 39, 44 and 65; Jn10:26-28. Acts13:48. Rom3:10-12. 1Cor2:14. 2Cor4:3-4. 2Tim2:25. Heb12:2. 1Jn5:1. Ezk36:26-27. Prov16:4. Jer13:23, 17:9. Every one of those (and the others not listed!) can be answered provably NOT in support of Calvinism, usually by direct context. The "primaries" are not as easily answered in Calvinist's minds, but "predestined-salvation" cannot fit many other passages -- such as all those that speak of really falling from salvation. Citations on request!

I know God says He will sprinkle clean water over you.
God does all the work lest any man boast he did something.

Right --- please connect this with John6:25-29. Verse 29 says believing is GOD'S work, but in context it is His work that we choose to work. "We work the work of God, by believing".

We are dead in our sin and born that way so how can a dead person in sin seek God. You dead in sin.

There is a clear and indisputable answer to this --- are you ready?

First, God reveals Himself to all men, through what He has made. Rom1:19-20. Second, God determines men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might find Him, though He's not far from anyone, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts17:26-31. Third --- Deuteronomy30:11-20 connects with Acts17, and connects directly with Romans10:6-10; clearly asserted is that the word-of-faith (the message of Jesus, the SAME word of faith that Paul was preaching, Rm10:8!) --- is in everyone's heart and mouth, each can either confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish; each makes the choice of eternal life, by loving God and by obeying Him and by holding fast to Him.

So it's GOD who overcomes everyone's "total inability", and dead men are drawn to Jesus (Jn12:32) so that they can believe. Note "WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us ...by grace THROUGH FAITH" (Eph2:3-8) --- saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead!

It's also 1Cor1:21 where God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message (it is "conviction" that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom").

The concept of "our seeking God" is very clear in Matthew7:14 ("heurisko" means "find by seeking", fitting verse 7 "seek and you shall find"). It's in Heb11:6, and Acts17:26-31.

That is why we share the living word with them, the bible. Once they get even the smallest amount of the word of God they can turn to God and seek him.

Amen!

That is why I think it's of utmost importance to share the bible with people, the more humbly and Jesus-like you do it the better chance of bringing people to Christ.

You are SO right. I've said to people that "though I don't smoke, drink, sleep-around, steal, murder, I'm no better than anyone; I deserve Hell the same as anyone else." It blows them away. A couple of male witches looked at me and said, "You're the first Christian we've met that's not been spouting Hell-fire and brimstone at us!"

....and I said, "Then I'm the first REAL Christian you've met!"

Until you bring someone under the word of God they will remain dead.

I think we're mostly in agreement; but Scripture says (as we just studied!) that He makes the word-of-faith real in every person.

In the old testament times God did many things on his own but now he uses the Church.
We can tell people pray and pray and ask over and over. God even says to do this. A lot of people want this world and Jesus and you can't have both.
So they aren't seeking with all their heart.

Ironically, often when we pray for others, we're really praying for OURSELVES: "God, change ME, into whatever You need to reach them!"

Once we have the Holy Spirit we can spread the seeds around. Some fall on good ground and some on rocky. Some seeds get eaten by the birds.
It is the Holy Spirits business who gets saved and who doesn't.

No, it's ours --- please read Luke8:13-15, Jesus' story about "rocky soil and good soil". Calvinists think that God makes soil "rocky" or "good", and therefore they either persevere or fall. Not what Jesus was teaching. Connect that passage with Hebrews6:11-12 --- one tilled soil can produce either good fruit (and be blessed), or thorns (and be cursed). So the label reflects how the people persevered, or not; if they "hold fast and bear fruit with perseverance", then they are called "good soil". But if they fall to temptation (affliction & persecution Mk4:17), then they are called "rocky/bad soil".

Repenting equals seeking the lord with all your heart. We get enough grace for each day from God. God supplies us with Grace and we should use it to repent and stay on the right path.

Amen. But recognize it's His power, though our faith. It's always by the Spirit that we guard the treasure of eternal life, see 2Tim1:12-14.

I am sure we can effect God's actions through prayers. I am sure if we claim any credit toward our salvation we are asking for judgment on us, very bad.

Worse, we are not receiving Jesus. His work on the Cross was sufficient, and complete.

God gave the example of the old man picking up a stick on the sabbath. Moses asked God what they should do and God said stone him.
This sounds so evil. God is definitely showing us that we are not to claim credit for any work we did are we risk his wrath.

God is ultimate good, His kindness leads to repentance; He is love, and there is no fear in love. 1Jn4:16-20.

The "fear" spoken of in Acts10:34-35 is reverence, not terror.

The reality of this thing we call "Christianity", is an indwelt fellowship of love (Gal2:20, 1Jn1:1-3). It is a marriage -- He is the groom, we are the bride.

You and I are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of God; to fellowship with Him, to exult in His glory, to love and worship Him and to celebrate Him; as He loves and enjoys US!

Very good post!!!

:-)