Calvinism / pre-destination

[Gadgeteer]

Oh, he can hear you, alright. It has nothing to do with his understanding of what you're saying. You're being clear enough. He (and others like myself) simply disagrees with you.

Well said. And not just "disagrees", but the disagreement has been clearly backed up with precise Scriptures.

Is that saying God directs the path of all people as you apparently believe? No. I don't think you understand what that verse means.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Here is another verse that sheds some light on what that verse means:

Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He doesn't direct the steps of the wicked, He directs the steps of those who indicate to Him that they want to follow Him.

Wow --- I said the same thing previous post, before I read this; you said it better! :-)

But what you don't understand is that man is responsible to choose to indicate to God that he wants to follow Him and that he wants God to direct his steps. People aren't puppets with strings that God pulls to do what He wants. Unfortunately, that is probably how you understand that verse. God will show us the way and direct our steps IF we acknowledge Him in all our ways and make the effort to submit to Him and follow Him. It is our responsibility to willingly submit to His direction.

How many people here believe that Proverbs16:4 asserts "God creates men to be wicked"?

God directs our steps, through faith; not apart from.

How is submitting to God and acknowledging Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior while also acknowledging that you are a sinner in need of God's mercy and forgiveness a case of stealing glory from God? You are equating someone humbling themselves with glorifying themselves. That makes no sense. That's like saying that humbly accepting help from someone when you're in need means you are doing it to receive glory.

In so many ways, "Reformed Theology" is backwards. Jesus said that refusing to come to Him to have life, is "stealing God's glory". John5:39-47!

Have you ever accepted help or a gift from someone? If so, did you do it for your own glory or because you were humbled by their graciousness? Did you deserve some kind of credit for merely accepting their help or their gift?

Jesus calls those WHO believe "wise", but those who WILL not believe "foolish" (Matt7:24-27). Being wise enough to accept His gracious gift robs nothing of the gift; it grants no merit or boast to the receiver, the value of the gift remains forever OF the gift. And in no way could men be wise TO receive grace, or foolish TO reject it, if it was GOD really making the decision.

That's what this whole discussion is about --- who ultimately makes the conscious decision for us to be in eternity with God? Or who will suffer eternal wrath?

Reformed Theology: "It is ultimately GOD'S decision."
Scripture: "It is MEN'S decision, each judged for his own choice."


In these discussions we've seen so many verses that cast full responsibility on US --- Rom2:4-8 is startlingly clear for one. AND the responsibility for CONTINUING in salvation --- how are we to twist 1Tim4:16 into something other than our conscious and continued decision?

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES..."

Peter says exactly the same thing in 2:1:5-11, warning us (against the man who fell from salvation!) to make our calling and election firm/steadfast!

Tell me again who it is that makes our election steadfast?


"By your endurance, save your souls." Luke21:19.

Jesus said that, I believe it! So did Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke John, James, Jude, David, Ezekiel (etcetera, etcetera...)

[svfox]

He does write his laws onto peoples heart so they know good from bad.


Remember,
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god

I got this clear enough. Faith is brought to them by hearing. Hearing is plain as can be. The word of god.
If it is any faith in us it is Jesus faith! I truly believe.

Somewhere Jesus is called faithful and true.
So I truly believe we mistake our faith for Jesus perfect faith that we are connected to. But it is not our faith.
Since all good things come from God, we pray that God gives us the faith that Jesus had.
Let the Holy Spirit come in us and lead others to Jesus.

I like to think of it as I am on a mountain side 100 ft up and you have no way to climb up.
You are yelling for me to drop the rope. You can do anything you want but I have to drop the rope and pull you up.
You wouldn't even know what side of the mountain I was on unless I told you and then you claim credit for walking to the north side of the mountain.


Any work you do will fail unless you did it with the Holy Spirit.
The world is falling away fast. It is sad to see.

Hi, "Silver"! Not when you look at the whole, and realize contextual refutations of Calvinistic understandings.

Recognize that Calvinism founds on four passages --- Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom9:11-23, and Rom8:29-35. There are about 35 "secondary passages", like Mark4:11-12. Luke8:13-15. John6:37, 39, 44 and 65; Jn10:26-28. Acts13:48. Rom3:10-12. 1Cor2:14. 2Cor4:3-4. 2Tim2:25. Heb12:2. 1Jn5:1. Ezk36:26-27. Prov16:4. Jer13:23, 17:9. Every one of those (and the others not listed!) can be answered provably NOT in support of Calvinism, usually by direct context. The "primaries" are not as easily answered in Calvinist's minds, but "predestined-salvation" cannot fit many other passages -- such as all those that speak of really falling from salvation. Citations on request!
Right --- please connect this with John6:25-29. Verse 29 says believing is GOD'S work, but in context it is His work that we choose to work. "We work the work of God, by believing".
There is a clear and indisputable answer to this --- are you ready?

First, God reveals Himself to all men, through what He has made. Rom1:19-20. Second, God determines men's places and times so that they SHOULD seek Him and might find Him, though He's not far from anyone, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts17:26-31. Third --- Deuteronomy30:11-20 connects with Acts17, and connects directly with Romans10:6-10; clearly asserted is that the word-of-faith (the message of Jesus, the SAME word of faith that Paul was preaching, Rm10:8!) --- is in everyone's heart and mouth, each can either confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away and perish; each makes the choice of eternal life, by loving God and by obeying Him and by holding fast to Him.

So it's GOD who overcomes everyone's "total inability", and dead men are drawn to Jesus (Jn12:32) so that they can believe. Note "WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us ...by grace THROUGH FAITH" (Eph2:3-8) --- saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead!

It's also 1Cor1:21 where God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message (it is "conviction" that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom").

The concept of "our seeking God" is very clear in Matthew7:14 ("heurisko" means "find by seeking", fitting verse 7 "seek and you shall find"). It's in Heb11:6, and Acts17:26-31.
Amen!
You are SO right. I've said to people that "though I don't smoke, drink, sleep-around, steal, murder, I'm no better than anyone; I deserve Hell the same as anyone else." It blows them away. A couple of male witches looked at me and said, "You're the first Christian we've met that's not been spouting Hell-fire and brimstone at us!"

....and I said, "Then I'm the first REAL Christian you've met!"
I think we're mostly in agreement; but Scripture says (as we just studied!) that He makes the word-of-faith real in every person. Ironically, often when we pray for others, we're really praying for OURSELVES: "God, change ME, into whatever You need to reach them!"
No, it's ours --- please read Luke8:13-15, Jesus' story about "rocky soil and good soil". Calvinists think that God makes soil "rocky" or "good", and therefore they either persevere or fall. Not what Jesus was teaching. Connect that passage with Hebrews6:11-12 --- one tilled soil can produce either good fruit (and be blessed), or thorns (and be cursed). So the label reflects how the people persevered, or not; if they "hold fast and bear fruit with perseverance", then they are called "good soil". But if they fall to temptation (affliction & persecution Mk4:17), then they are called "rocky/bad soil".
Amen. But recognize it's His power, though our faith. It's always by the Spirit that we guard the treasure of eternal life, see 2Tim1:12-14.
Worse, we are not receiving Jesus. His work on the Cross was sufficient, and complete.
God is ultimate good, His kindness leads to repentance; He is love, and there is no fear in love. 1Jn4:16-20.

The "fear" spoken of in Acts10:34-35 is reverence, not terror.

The reality of this thing we call "Christianity", is an indwelt fellowship of love (Gal2:20, 1Jn1:1-3). It is a marriage -- He is the groom, we are the bride.

You and I are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of God; to fellowship with Him, to exult in His glory, to love and worship Him and to celebrate Him; as He loves and enjoys US!

Very good post!!!

:-)

[tea]

Is that saying God directs the path of all people as you apparently believe? No. I don't think you understand what that verse means.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Here is another verse that sheds some light on what that verse means:

Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He doesn't direct the steps of the wicked, He directs the steps of those who indicate to Him

I can't agree, as then how does this verse fit in?

Proverbs 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Seems to me that God has all hearts in His hands.

Ezekiel expresses the same.

[Brother Mark]

I can't agree, as then how does this verse fit in?

Proverbs 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Seems to me that God has all hearts in His hands.

Ezekiel expresses the same.

It goes back to Jer. 18. God will give man a choice, but in the end, God still is in control and he directs man's paths. If evil is there, then God will use it. If good, then God will use that. If both good and bad are there, God will use that! (See Samson for an example of that one.) But that doesn't mean he makes the decision for man. Rather, it means that God will use the decision to obey, disobey, to believe or not, either way to bring about his plans and purposes. That's illustrated throughout the scriptures. (See Esther for an example of that.)

Until we understand the character of God, we will not understand how God interacts with man. What God tells us about Himself is very important for us to know how God will act throughout time/eternity.

[Arrow]

It goes back to Jer. 18. God will give man a choice, but in the end, God still is in control and he directs man's paths.

What about in the begining?

Isn't God in control from the begining, and not only the end?

Do you disagree with Prov 21:1 ?

I am trying to understand what you are saying

[Brother Mark]

What about in the begining?

Isn't God in control from the begining, and not only the end?

Do you disagree with Prov 21:1 ?

I am trying to understand what you are saying

God is in control. That doesn't mean he dictates everything that happens. He tells Adam "Eat of this and you will die." Adam chooses and he dies. God was in control the whole time but that didn't negate Adam's choice. God didn't force Adam to eat. He didn't purpose Adam to eat. God offered Adam Jer. 18 just like he does all people.

Jer 18:7-10
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

But as I said above, we need to look at and understand the character of God. Looking at man first leads to error. Better to look to God and his character first, then go from there.

[Arrow]

But as I said above, we need to look at and understand the character of God. Looking at man first leads to error. Better to look to God and his character first, then go from there.

looking at God first makes sense. So are you saying you do agree with Prov 21:1?

[Gadgeteer]

looking at God first makes sense. So are you saying you do agree with Prov 21:1?

"The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes." Prov21:1.

What happened to David? The little thing with Bathsheba??? Did God turn David's heart to adultery and murder? No. There clearly is an assumption of "the king being submitted to God", isn't there?


In 1Tim2:1-4, we are to pray for kings and all authority, that our lives be peaceful; for God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. All men --- including kings and all authority, who in real life will NOT be saved. We are to pray that they be led to salvation.

Does God direct the hearts of kings without the kings' faith? No.

Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Acknowledge God AND He will direct your paths. He doesn't, if you don't. King, or not.

[Arrow]

Does God direct the hearts of kings without the kings' faith? No.

So, you disagree with Prov 21:1 ?

[Gadgeteer]

He does write his laws onto people's hearts so they know good from bad.

Remember,
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Hi, "Silver". Romans10:14-17 is pragmatic --- people are more likely to believe if they hear the Gospel. Note that in 1Tim3:15, "faith" (to salvation) did not come from hearing, but from studying Scripture --- which led to wisdom (conviction!) that led to saving-faith. Contrast this with John5:39-47, where the Pharisees also studied Scripture but refused to believe. Why did they refuse? Because they sought their own glory rather than God's, but mostly because they would not love God.

I got this clear enough. Faith is brought to them by hearing. Hearing is plain as can be. The word of god.
If it is any faith in us it is Jesus' faith! I truly believe.

So you're perceiving that faith flows in direction from God-towards-men? Which direction does it flow in 1Pet1:9? Or Heb11:6? From men-towards-God, doesn't it?

Somewhere Jesus is called faithful and true.

And He remains faithful even if we become faithless and perish! 2Tim2:11-13! Two positions are set forth there --- "died/endure", which means we will reign with Christ (will be saved); this opposed to "deny-Him and be faithless", which means JESUS will deny us before GOD (Matt10:33), and faithlessness is not "saved". So the first position is "saved", the second is "not"; and each is possible.

So I truly believe we mistake our faith for Jesus' perfect faith that we are connected to. But it is not our faith.

It is our faith. "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation." 1Pet1:9.

How many times did Jesus say "Your faith has made-you-well/saved-you"? When Jesus said, "Never have I seen so great a faith", did God mess up and give one person MORE faith than another? When Jesus told Thomas "you believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe" (Jn20:29) --- how can unseen-faith be better than seen-faith, if faith comes from GOD and not from men? How can "believing be wise and "unbelieving" be foolish (Matt7:24-27)? How can Jesus rebuke those who saw Him and His miracles, saying they'll be judged more harshly than ancient cities who had not the opportunity of believing-because-of-seeing (how is He not condemning them fore being more willfully unbelieving --- Matt11:21-24)?

Can you fit any of these verses into the idea of faith flows from GOD towards MEN?

Since all good things come from God, we pray that God gives us the faith that Jesus had.
Let the Holy Spirit come in us and lead others to Jesus.

If we pray to God to give us faith, do we not have enough faith TO pray?

I like to think of it as I am on a mountain side 100 ft up and you have no way to climb up.
You are yelling for me to drop the rope. You can do anything you want but I have to drop the rope and pull you up.

But I have faith that you'll drop the rope, or I wouldn't ask --- right?

"Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you.
...narrow is the way that leads to life, and few are those who find-by-seeking (heurisko)." Matt7:7-14.

You wouldn't even know what side of the mountain I was on unless I told you and then you claim credit for walking to the north side of the mountain.

But if you throw down the rope, do I not still have to grab the rope and climb, believing that you will not let me fall?

Any work you do will fail unless you did it with the Holy Spirit.

That's true. But the Spirit works through faith.

The world is falling away fast. It is sad to see.

And that is why I participate in "OSAS" threads. We are at risk; Paul said in 2Cor11:3 that we are at the same risk of deception-away-from-Jesus, as Eve was in the Garden!

So I talk to people, post on message boards, debate, tease, and encourage; longing to be used by God to strengthen brothers and sisters. I don't care if we all come to agreement; with all my heart I most want each of you to be WITH me, in the clouds with Jesus when He comes.

[Brother Mark]

looking at God first makes sense. So are you saying you do agree with Prov 21:1?

I thought my post was clear enough that it explain what I believe proverbs 21:1 to be saying.

God gives a King, the head of a nation a choice. Jer. 18 speaks about it.

Jer 18:7-10
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
NASU

When the king chooses rightly, God gives more wisdom and the heart of the king is thus directed by the Lord. If the king chooses wrongly, then God withdraws and the heart grows dark. The heart believes lies unto destruction. The enemy wrecks havoc with such a man. I can give many examples of such a thing if you wish. But that doesn't mean God doesn't allow the king a choice.

God used the evil in Samson's heart to stir up the Philistines so that he could set Israel free. He used the evil in the heart of the chaldeans to chastise his people. He used a deceptive spirit to deceive Ahab because Ahab had chosen wrongly. And on and on and on. God does make the choice for them, but he sure turns their heart's desires to further his plans once they decide.

Finally, lets admit that verse doesn't address salvation but rather rulers of nations.

[Brother Mark]

Does God direct the hearts of kings without the kings' faith? No.

I think he directs both evil and good hearts. But that doesn't mean he decides for them nor does it mean that the verse is about salvation. If calvnist want to make it about salvation, then they have to become universalist. For instance, the verse states...

Prov 21:1

21 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
NASU

That word wishes is desire/pleases/delights, etc. What then would the reformers do with the verse in Peter where they say God desires/wishes for men to be saved?

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
NASU

Regardless, the verse isn't addressing salvation, but rather leaders of nations and how those leaders lead their countrymen. If we want the hearts of our kings turned, then we must repent, pray to God, and then he will raise up rulers for us that make wise decisions to our benefit.

[John146]

IMO, if your doctrine about God is off, then it is very difficult, if not impossible to have right doctrine about man. If the doctrine about God is right, then it is harder to have wrong doctrine about man. That's why I say it is more important to get it right about God. The rest flows from there.

That's reasonable. I have no problem with that perspective.

[John146]

Well said. And not just "disagrees", but the disagreement has been clearly backed up with precise Scriptures.
Wow --- I said the same thing previous post, before I read this; you said it better! :-) How many people here believe that Proverbs16:4 asserts "God creates men to be wicked"?

God directs our steps, through faith; not apart from.
In so many ways, "Reformed Theology" is backwards. Jesus said that refusing to come to Him to have life, is "stealing God's glory". John5:39-47! Jesus calls those WHO believe "wise", but those who WILL not believe "foolish" (Matt7:24-27). Being wise enough to accept His gracious gift robs nothing of the gift; it grants no merit or boast to the receiver, the value of the gift remains forever OF the gift. And in no way could men be wise TO receive grace, or foolish TO reject it, if it was GOD really making the decision.

That's what this whole discussion is about --- who ultimately makes the conscious decision for us to be in eternity with God? Or who will suffer eternal wrath?

Reformed Theology: "It is ultimately GOD'S decision."
Scripture: "It is MEN'S decision, each judged for his own choice."


In these discussions we've seen so many verses that cast full responsibility on US --- Rom2:4-8 is startlingly clear for one. AND the responsibility for CONTINUING in salvation --- how are we to twist 1Tim4:16 into something other than our conscious and continued decision?

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES..."

Peter says exactly the same thing in 2:1:5-11, warning us (against the man who fell from salvation!) to make our calling and election firm/steadfast!

Tell me again who it is that makes our election steadfast?


"By your endurance, save your souls." Luke21:19.

Jesus said that, I believe it! So did Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke John, James, Jude, David, Ezekiel (etcetera, etcetera...)

Good post. I agree with everything you said here. You know, those verses are so straightforward that I don't know why anyone would want to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts them. Scripture says repeatedly that we are responsible and we play a part in salvation. Calvinism says we play no part in it and God does everything. How can Calvinism reconcile itself with passages that speak of the need for us to persevere and make our calling and election sure? Where does it say God does that for us? Nowhere! Does He help us do that? Sure! But do we have some responsibility in that? Yes, according to scripture.

Calvinism removes all responsibility from man and makes God out to be a cruel God who punishes people for no real reason. Calvinists don't like people saying that about their doctrine but it's absolutely true. They teach that the wicked can't help but be wicked and can't help but reject Christ. That means they have no choice but to be wicked and no choice but to reject Christ. So, why are they punished for being wicked and rejecting Christ then? Who ever heard of punishing someone for something they couldn't help doing? That doesn't make any sense. No, people get punished for either doing things they shouldn't have done that they chose to do or for not doing things they should have done that they chose not to do. Without the freedom to choose there is no basis for punishment (or rewards for that matter).

[John146]

I can't agree, as then how does this verse fit in?

Proverbs 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Seems to me that God has all hearts in His hands.

Ezekiel expresses the same.

Does that verse somehow trump what is written in Prov 3:6? Prov 3:6 makes it clear that something is required of us in order for God to direct our paths. And that is that we have to acknowledge Him in all our ways. Why would you believe that He directs our path even if we don't acknowledge Him in all our ways? If that was the case then how do you make sense of Prov 3:6?

As far as Prov 21:1 is concerned that verse is not saying that God controls everything that kings or other people do. He can and He will if He wants to, but to think that's saying God controls every single thing that people do is taking it out of context and doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. Do you think whenever a person is murdered or raped that it's always God's will and something He made happen? I sure hope not. That would mean He punishes people for doing those things despite Him commanding them not to do it and after supposedly leading them to do it. How could that make any sense?