Canon: closed, open, other?

[glad4mercy]

Scriptural support?

Besides, if the Bible is closed... that closing sure hasn't protected many from false writings.

It has protected my family and I. The Bible is there to believe or reject. If people refuse to take hold of the lifeline, it is a matter of their choice, not a deficiency in the Bible.

[Luciano Vinci]

Ok, I have a few Scriptural supports, which can easily be shot down by those who operate in logic and reason. However, anyone that knows me, knows I live in a world of faith and the impossible. And that some of my analogies are quite a stretch, but here goes any way.

I have been posting in the last couple weeks about the types and shadows in the Tabernacle of Moses. There are at least two types I see as the 66 book cannon of Scripture in the Tabernacle.

1. The Table of Shewbread. Bread throughout the Scripture typifies the Word, I don't think I need to prove that. However, the stacking of the bread is interesting to me. 2 piles of 6 each. 6 and 6 pieces shewbread = 66 books. 6 is also the number of man and 2 is the number of witness and/or covenant. Thus, 66 is God's witness to man (the Bible) or God's Two Covenants with man (old and new).

2. The Golden Candlestick, while it is beaten together from one piece of gold, it is an almond tree with 66 parts. The center stem/base has 12 buds and the branch/buds to the left have 9 on each (27 total); thus the base (12) and the 3 branches on the left (27) constitute the 39 books of the OT, while the 3 branches on the right (27) represent the New Testament. 39 Old Testament and 27 New Testament books found in the Golden Candlestick.

Another interesting type can be looking at the book of Isaiah as a mini-Bible. It has 66 chapters. Coincidentally or providentially (depending on what you think of types), the first 39 chapters of Isaiah have more of a judgment mood, while the last 27 speak more toward salvation and restoration. That's why some theologians (I believe are wrong) say that there were actually two Isaiahs, because of this stark contrast between the first part (Old Covenant) of Isaiah and the second part (New Covenant). Another "coincidence" is that right after the 39th chapter (or end of the OT), Isaiah begins in chapter 40 by announcing the coming of John the Baptist to prepare the way of the Messiah. In other words, Isaiah begins preaching/prophesying the New Covenant/Testament in the 27 last chapters/books.

I have a few other types showing 66 as the Word of God, however, if the above doesn't move you at all, any other types I posit will seem even more absurd.

So while I don't have any direct evidence that the 66 books complete the canon of Scripture, something within me (perhaps the Holy Spirit) gives me an assurance that the Bible we have today is complete, and is the Word of God, that needs nothing added to it, nor taken away, to perfect it.

P.S. I love the epistles written by other Apostles (especially Barnabas). And while I get great enjoyment and sometimes learning from them, they in no way carry the weight of the words of Paul, Peter, John, etc.

[MoreMercy]

OT: "There is nothing new under the sun."
NT Christ speaking: "I have foretold you all things."

...whether all of us will or can understand all of those foretold things is irrelevant toward the threads question in light of the OT's "there is nothing new under the sun"

Here is my ambiguous answer to the threads question:
Eve attached a question mark while quoting God, and look what happened.

Call me a trusting simpleton, but who's words do I trust ?


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

Wow! Look what happens when someone starts a topic, then goes to bed for the night. I have a lot of reading to do to catch up. Please remember that the purpose of this thread is not to question the authority of scripture or to undermine it in any way. The purpose is to examine one's underlying assumptions and reasons for their conclusions. Thanks for the replies. I'll post what I see as some underlying assumptions in the previous posts, as well as my own pov. Y'all will likely be able to see assumptions I've made that I haven't noticed!

blessings,

Watchman

[fewarechosen]

OT: "There is nothing new under the sun."
NT Christ speaking: "I have foretold you all things."

...whether all of us will or can understand all of those foretold things is irrelevant toward the threads question in light of the OT's "there is nothing new under the sun"

Here is my ambiguous answer to the threads question:
Eve attached a question mark while quoting God, and look what happened.

Call me a trusting simpleton, but who's words do I trust ?


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

i agree with this ^

very important quote from Christ also

[Slug1]

Thank you for this excellent post. If I am not mistaken, the word "canon" means rule or measuring stick. The only reliable rule of faith and practice we have to discern truth from error is the Scriptures, and I hold that the scriptures are complete, therefore the canon is complete. That which we hold to be the standard by which we measure all teachings is the Bible.

I do believe that God still speaks through illumination, and I even believe that God can speak through a Word of prophecy if He so chooses, but whatever illumination or uttered word we will receive will conform to and be in complete agreement with the Bible. Additionally, the one who may speak in the name of the Lord can not be said to be infallible, which is why the spirits need to be tested, and the utterances must be discerned. The Bible tests the spirits, and discerns the words of a teacher.

Like SteelCurtain said, if a teaching does not conform to the 66 books, it is a false teaching and a deceiving persuasion. The only thing I would say is that I would prefer the word "illumination" to "revelation" in the first sentence, ie "...any new illumination we receive must be consistent..." but that's just my preference. Good post, SteelCurtain. This coming from a Browns fan...

Now that you've posted this, I see that we're looking at this topic from two different angles.

As in the canon being closed... some believe there IS NO MORE prophecy BECAUSE the canon is closed. God will NEVER speak to us directly and we cannot hear from Him anymore except in what is read.

[Mark F]

No. The belief the canon is closed isn't to protect us from false writings, false teachers, false prophets, and false signs. It isn't because the Word of God is "closed" we are protected... we are protected by the Word of God from all this false stuff because WITH the Word of God we can TEST THE SPIRITS, BY the Word of God. When anything false is before us and it is not aligned with scripture... then it is false.

It's not determined to be false because people claim the canon is closed.

Just by reading the last two chapters in the Book of John we see that the canon can't be closed because not everything Jesus did and revealed to the Apostles are recorded for us to read.

Your last sentence is very significant. I would only place value on those things that concern the Son. Unfortunatley no one is around to record those things.

I have heard it said concerning the Scriptures that if God were to speak He would be repeating Himself.
I agree in that I believe He has told us all things.

Jesus said at least two things concerning this very topic ;

John 16:12-14: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."

and John 14:25-26:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

We must consider some other things when it comes to "new truths".
I agree with the one who posted (it was glad4mercy which is a superb post by the way) that there are things in the Scriptures that we have not understood or discovered, I just think that much caution is needed and if it does not concern or glorify the Son, we would best not go down that road.

This verse in Hebrews should be considered, diagramed and disected to to see the scope of its statement. This is at the heart of the issue for anyone that desires "more" from the Scripture.

Hebrews 1:2 "has in these last days spoken to us by His Son"

"Last days" speaks of no more to follow, the end of a sequence. Verse one addresses prior to the "last days"

"Has spoken" means finally and specifically.

"By His Son" means that Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God. What more could God say that is more important that His Son?

If you want more, seek the Son. Keep your eyes on the Son. It's all about Him, God has put Jesus on display to show all of creation that He is just, and the justifier of those who believe Him.


Romans 3:26: "to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

[Watchman]

I was raised in a very conservative church group who, IMO, misapplied several passages thus creating a prooftexted, but unwritten, creed of sorts. The passage that spawned the thought for this thread is:

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

This passage was used as a club to ‘scripturally’ enforce a letter of the law type of legalism. When I read it, I see that Paul is simply instructing the saints at Corinth not to esteem one person, or teacher, more highly than another. Scripture is replete with instruction and examples regarding the standing of man in God’s eyes and regarding how we should treat and esteem other people. Anyway, here are some of the conclusions undergirded by assumptions that I see in the replies given so far:


1. The apostolic age ended with the death of John.
2. The God-breathed writings stopped with the writing of the Revelation of Christ.
3. Closing the canon of scripture results in the avoidance of confusion and deception.
4. The folks who compiled the canon got it absolutely correct and complete.
5. It is correct because no other compilation of writings has carried the same weight.
6. Leaving the canon open is akin to adding to God’s words.
7. The Bible is a lifeline.
8. We cannot determine the veracity of revelations apart from the Bible.
9. Since the foundation is laid, we need nothing new with which to build on it.
10. Our understanding of numeric symbolism shows the canon to be complete.
11. All things Jesus foretold are contained in the Bible.
12. Since the canon is closed, God no longer speaks to us directly.

How can we justify these statements from scripture?

W

[Luciano Vinci]

We must consider some other things when it comes to "new truths".
I agree with the one who posted (it was glad4mercy which is a superb post by the way) that there are things in the Scriptures that we have not understood or discovered, I just think that much caution is needed and if it does not concern or glorify the Son, we would best not go down that road.

In 2 Peter 1:12 we see that there is a "present truth." We know that there is nothing new under the sun. I believe all NT doctrines have already been established. There is no real "new truth" but I do believe there is a restoration of NT truths that have been cast aside because of the traditions of men.

a couple examples:

1. Martin Luther didn't create the doctrine of "justification by faith" in the 1500's, Paul, through the power of the Holy Ghost did in the first century, or you can even say Habakkuk did 500 years before that.

2. The Anabaptists didn't create the doctrine of baptism by full immersion, they just rediscovered it.

3. The Wesleys didn't discover sanctification, the doctrine was always there, just no one really spoke or lived in it.

4. Azuza Street and the revival of Pentecost didn't discover new truths about the infilling of the Holy Ghost, they just read the Word and believed it to be true for today (their time).

God is doing nothing new, but we are still in the midst of the "times of restitution of all things" before His final Coming (Acts 3:21). I don't know what "new" doctrine is coming down the pike, but I am sure it will not really be "new" if it's of God. It will, however, become "this present truth."

[Mark F]

I was raised in a very conservative church group who, IMO, misapplied several passages thus creating a prooftexted, but unwritten, creed of sorts. The passage that spawned the thought for this thread is:

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

This passage was used as a club to ‘scripturally’ enforce a letter of the law type of legalism. When I read it, I see that Paul is simply instructing the saints at Corinth not to esteem one person, or teacher, more highly than another. Scripture is replete with instruction and examples regarding the standing of man in God’s eyes and regarding how we should treat and esteem other people. Anyway, here are some of the conclusions undergirded by assumptions that I see in the replies given so far:


1. The apostolic age ended with the death of John.
2. The God-breathed writings stopped with the writing of the Revelation of Christ.
3. Closing the canon of scripture results in the avoidance of confusion and deception.
4. The folks who compiled the canon got it absolutely correct and complete.
5. It is correct because no other compilation of writings has carried the same weight.
6. Leaving the canon open is akin to adding to God’s words.
7. The Bible is a lifeline.
8. We cannot determine the veracity of revelations apart from the Bible.
9. Since the foundation is laid, we need nothing new with which to build on it.
10. Our understanding of numeric symbolism shows the canon to be complete.
11. All things Jesus foretold are contained in the Bible.
12. Since the canon is closed, God no longer speaks to us directly.

How can we justify these statements from scripture?

W

Question to you then...

Do you need more to be saved?

Do you need more to know the will of God?

Do you need more to do the will of God?

Is there greater revelation than the Person of Christ?

Not that your questions are not legitiment, but shouldn't there be boundaries as Paul wrote to keep us on the same page, so to speak? You wander away from the standard and who knows what happens.

As far as the current cannon, is there other writings that can say "Thus says the Lord"?
Is experience or feeling more reliable and teachable than what has been written.

Are we not told:

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Where will we find these words if not in the canon? What is considered the cannon was not assembled by some council that voted and decided what books to include but it was assembled by the recognition that they were indeed the words of God.

[Watchman]

My own pov is that there is actually no closed canon because:

1. From the writings we have, we find no command from God to compile all of the God-breathed writings and bind them up into a book.

2. We also find no list of such writings given anywhere in scripture.

3. If we are to believe in a closed canon of scripture, we must trust those who compiled it to be infallible. There is a chance that all those who worked on the compilation were truly Spirit-led, and there is a chance that all the papyri, scrolls, etc. have been preserved and located. But these are not certainties, else we’d not have multiple canons scattered across the different facets of Christendom.

4. We are promised by Jesus that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. We know it isn’t all written in the Bible because there are books that will be unsealed at the last day, there is a Book of Truth in heaven, some revelations were commanded to be sealed up, and because all of Jesus’ words and works are not recorded for us. The Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher…which is excellent because He authored the scriptures.

5. Scriptures are God-breathed…as are prophecies. Prophets and the gift of prophecy were given to the church at Christ’s ascension. Every word that the Holy Spirit utters through a person that is recorded is, in fact, God-breathed.

6. Scripture testifies of (points to) Christ…but Christ Himself lives within us. God's words testify of The Word, who lives and works in us.

7. God orders our steps and has created, ahead of time, good works for each of us to walk in. Orders denotes timing and sequence. Scripture does not contain the timing and sequence of our steps, nor does it contain the list of good works He prepared for each of us. We can find these only by the leading of the Spirit of Christ.

I'll need to stop here. If I don't go feed the horses, there is going to be a stampede outside.

Love in Jesus,

Watchman

[divaD]

Just by reading the last two chapters in the Book of John we see that the canon can't be closed because not everything Jesus did and revealed to the Apostles are recorded for us to read.

So in what sense are you understanding this? Like for instance, obviously some ancient texts were chosen to be included, others weren't, plus the fact that ancient texts we are yet to be aware of could be found someday, and could very well be God breathed texts. But would that be the same thing as someone today that claims to get new revelations from God, and that it is worthy to add this after the book of Revelation? Where would it end? And by what authority would they be doing this? Anyone can claim new divine revelations from God. That wouldn't necessarily make it so. I'll put it to you this way, if someone were to take their alleged personal new revelations from God and somehow convince someone it is worthy to place this after the book of Revelation, and then pretty much add to what is already written, you're not going to see me even remotely entertaining it. I would flat out reject it from the get go, since my common sense tells me no one today would have the same authority today to speak for God like the ancients did. And what about the early church fathers? Nothing they ever wrote was added to the canon of Scriptures. So why should anything be added today by somone claiming new divine revelations from God?

[fewarechosen]

Now that you've posted this, I see that we're looking at this topic from two different angles.

As in the canon being closed... some believe there IS NO MORE prophecy BECAUSE the canon is closed. God will NEVER speak to us directly and we cannot hear from Him anymore except in what is read.

Rev_21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

he laid corner stone and apostles laid the 12 foundations - he numbers apostles as 12 - not one less or one more

you cannot lay another foundation, no thirteenth foundation - that would go directly against scripture.

saying that i then say - prophecy is alive and well - God does speak directly to people

be very very weary of anyone who says they are a 13th foundation

[Luciano Vinci]

As far as the current cannon, is there other writings that can say "Thus says the Lord"?
Is experience or feeling more reliable and teachable than what has been written.

Maybe a little off topic, but have you noticed there are several (many if you look hard) quotes from external sources in both the OT and NT writings. In the OT, you see other books of kings and chronicles listed as sources for support. In the NT, just a few off the top of my head:

1. David was a man after God's own heart (Acts 13:22) is a quote from another source, not the OT.

2. Jesus said: "it is more blessed to give, than to receive (Acts 20:35); where is this found in the cannon of Scripture? It was an outside source obviously, whether oral or written.

3. The Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints is attributed to Enoch, however, we have nothing in the OT to confirm he ever made this statement (Jude 14).

4. There are several others that come to mind like being told the Elijah prayed that it would not rain, while the OT never mentions that fact only the NT does.

[Watchman]

Rev_21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

he laid corner stone and apostles laid the 12 foundations - he numbers apostles as 12 - not one less or one more

you cannot lay another foundation, no thirteenth foundation - that would go directly against scripture.

saying that i then say - prophecy is alive and well - God does speak directly to people

be very very weary of anyone who says they are a 13th foundation

The 12 apostles of the Lamb were, indeed, foundational because they were the first. The NT, though, names about 22 apostles. Also the gift of apostle was given to equip the saints UNTIL the church reaches Christ's full stature...which has not, IMU, yet happened.

blessings,

W