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Thread: Canon: closed, open, other?

  1. #31
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    Maybe a little off topic, but have you noticed there are several (many if you look hard) quotes from external sources in both the OT and NT writings. In the OT, you see other books of kings and chronicles listed as sources for support. In the NT, just a few off the top of my head:

    1. David was a man after God's own heart (Acts 13:22) is a quote from another source, not the OT.

    2. Jesus said: "it is more blessed to give, than to receive (Acts 20:35); where is this found in the cannon of Scripture? It was an outside source obviously, whether oral or written.

    3. The Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints is attributed to Enoch, however, we have nothing in the OT to confirm he ever made this statement (Jude 14).

    4. There are several others that come to mind like being told the Elijah prayed that it would not rain, while the OT never mentions that fact only the NT does.
    Lies and the words of Satan are recorded as well, whats your point?
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

  2. #32

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    The 12 apostles of the Lamb were, indeed, foundational because they were the first. The NT, though, names about 22 apostles. Also the gift of apostle was given to equip the saints UNTIL the church reaches Christ's full stature...which has not, IMU, yet happened.

    blessings,

    W
    how many apostles of the lamb are there ?

    then please post scripture of anyone besides 12 being called apostles

  3. #33

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    how many apostles of the lamb are there ?

    then please post scripture of anyone besides 12 being called apostles
    Acts 14:14 - Barnabas and Paul

  4. #34
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
    Question to you then...

    Do you need more to be saved?
    This is a loaded question, although I believe unintentionally loaded. Most folks with whom I've had contact believe 'saved' means going to heaven when we die. However, that is another topic. I believe the scriptures show us, but do not 'give' us all we need to be saved. They point to Christ and testify of Him. They tell us He lives in us and works in us. They tell us of the guidance and leading and teaching we receive from His Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F
    Do you need more to know the will of God?

    Do you need more to do the will of God?
    Absolutely yes to both questions. God orders our steps, which means the sequence and timing of each step is ordained. He pre-prepared good works in which for us to walk...and there is no list of these for each person, nor is there a sequence or timing given for each. That is the purview of the leading of the Spirit. I know, in general, the will of God, but I must have daily, momentary guidance and empowerment to walk in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F
    Is there greater revelation than the Person of Christ?
    I smiled and sighed a deep, joyful sigh when I read this question. There is NO greater revelation than Christ. I believe that revelation will continue eternally, because there will be no end to peace and the increase of His government. As long as there is increase, there is revelation, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F
    Not that your questions are not legitiment, but shouldn't there be boundaries as Paul wrote to keep us on the same page, so to speak? You wander away from the standard and who knows what happens.

    As far as the current cannon, is there other writings that can say "Thus says the Lord"?
    Is experience or feeling more reliable and teachable than what has been written.

    Are we not told:

    Matthew 4:4
    But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
    Where will we find these words if not in the canon? What is considered the cannon was not assembled by some council that voted and decided what books to include but it was assembled by the recognition that they were indeed the words of God.
    Yes, we need to be 'on the same page' and to all have the same mind and speak the same things. Paul gave good instruction when he told the Philippian saints to have the same mind as he had...and that if they differed, God would make it clear to them. He can do this via the scriptures, via Spirit-to-spirit instruction, via giving words to other people to tell us, via situations, and even via nature, music, and art. He speaks in a myriad of ways. Scripture waters (instructs) us in the ways of the Lord, but He gives the increase in our lives.

    blessings,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  5. #35
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    how many apostles of the lamb are there ?

    then please post scripture of anyone besides 12 being called apostles
    Apostles named in the NT:

    The original 12 (apostles of the Lamb...actually, Matthias took Judas' place)

    Matthias

    Paul

    Barnabas – Acts 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out…

    Apollos - 1 Corinthians 4:6,9a Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other… For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death;

    Andronicus, Junia - Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

    Timothy, Silas – 1 Thessalonians 1:1,2:2-6 Paul, Silas, and Timothy,To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:… But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts. For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness. Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

    James the Lord’s brother – Galatians 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

    Epaphroditus – Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger (Greek apostolos), and he that ministered to my wants.


    blessings,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  6. #36
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    A lack of understanding is causing the Canon to misfire.

  7. #37
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    My personal belief is that scripture is revealed to each period of God's dealing. I am hesitate to use the term dispensation because of the paradigm that term presents.
    Scripture reveals God's will for a given period. It is a gradual unfolding of the will of God and a revelation of himself.Before Moses God dealt with man by direct revelation to some and a general revelation to all.Every culture has roots of the general revelation. It has been labeled the "Melchizedek factor" by some. When Mel met Abraham he used the Canaanite form of Elohim known as "El Elyon" Abraham recognized the term as referring to the one he knew as Elohim and even used it in his discourse back. Social evolutionists attempt to plot the emergence of monotheism as rooted in polytheism and wasn't fully developed until the rise of Monarchies.Religion to them,was an attempt by primitive man to personify natural forces so they could then be negotiated with. Monotheism evolved when Kings began to associate their position with a one true God.The cultural roots of the "melchizedek factor" dispute this claim. It supports the scriptural basis for polytheism as a corruption of monotheism brought about in babylon by nimrod's mystery religion. However,after Moses we had a written record of God's word. It was added to by Samuel,David and the OT prophets. I often wonder if they understood that they were adding to canon. We then have the NT authors whose revelations also became canon. It is my belief that we have a complete canon that is sufficient for the current period we are in. However,I suspect that there are those now who have had experiences and recorded them by God's inspiration. Perhaps they will be used as a teaching tool by the Lord Jesus,himself when he gathers us all to Zion to teach us of his ways. Would they not then be considered "canon"?That being said,and it is only conjecture,I view the canon of scripture as currently closed.

    Heresy is real danger otherwise. Take a look at Joseph Smith's "canon" for example. An open canon view is a slippery slope that is best avoided.

    Blessings

    and Popcorn


    "You can make the scriptures say whatever you want if you torture them long enough"

  8. #38

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    apostles of the lamb, perhaps i should have been clearer but i thought the sentence above covered it

    apostle as in "messenger" i agree with all the above no problem, but not apostle of lamb that laid foundation.

    as far as apostle of lamb which laid foundation

    as to those 12 apostles what are their names that are on foundation ?

    there are only 12

    i get the feeling some are thinking there are more than 12 foundations, those are only ones i am speaking about, the 12 apostles of Christ.

  9. #39
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    I wrote:
    Originally Posted by Mark F
    Do you need more to know the will of God? Do you need more to do the will of God?
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Absolutely yes to both questions. God orders our steps, which means the sequence and timing of each step is ordained. He pre-prepared good works in which for us to walk...and there is no list of these for each person, nor is there a sequence or timing given for each. That is the purview of the leading of the Spirit. I know, in general, the will of God, but I must have daily, momentary guidance and empowerment to walk in it.
    Ok, then in contrast then, what if we had no cannon? Does your method work without it?
    I say no. Paul tells us that God has revealed to each of us He exists, the heavens declare Him, but apart from special revelation we cannot know anything about His character, His nature, and His will. You can tell me all day long that you get direction and guidance from God through His Spirit, and I will agree, but apart from what we learn in Scripture you would know nothing specifically, it is not possible to be sure. Paul agues in Acts 17:27, Romans 1:19-20, 2:15 that God has put within each of us that by nature and conscience we know that He exists, but why does Paul always use revelation to teach. Apart from the mystery of the Church that Paul was privilaged to reveal, he used the Scripture. He did use their own poets and pegan writings to convince them, but it was Scripture that contained the specifics of salvation.
    I smiled and sighed a deep, joyful sigh when I read this question. There is NO greater revelation than Christ. I believe that revelation will continue eternally, because there will be no end to peace and the increase of His government. As long as there is increase, there is revelation, yes?

    blessings,

    W
    I agree with that final statement btw. It isn't that I disagree with you completely either.
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

  10. #40
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    A lack of understanding is causing the Canon to misfire.
    Too funny!!
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

  11. #41
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    apostles of the lamb, perhaps i should have been clearer but i thought the sentence above covered it

    apostle as in "messenger" i agree with all the above no problem, but not apostle of lamb that laid foundation.

    as far as apostle of lamb which laid foundation

    as to those 12 apostles what are their names that are on foundation ?

    there are only 12

    i get the feeling some are thinking there are more than 12 foundations, those are only ones i am speaking about, the 12 apostles of Christ.
    No, the foundation, which is Christ, has been laid in the past and must be laid for each successive generation; however the foundation never changes. Apostles of the Lamb is, IMU, simply a way to distinguish the original 11 plus Matthias from all other apostles. The twelve were the first, the foundational ones, but not the ONLY apostles.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  12. #42
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    An open canon view is a slippery slope that is best avoided.
    I agree that it can be a slippery slope and here's why: there are over 900 denominations in the world today, all of whom claim they are right and the others are wrong regarding some portion of doctrine. That is what we've gotten with a 'closed' canon...or a misfiring one, as Episkopos so astutely observed. The problem is that each group is leaning to their own understanding. Scholarship, ie the wisdom of men, has taken the place of submission to the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit. The same argument, too, can be leveled at those claiming to follow His leading. Why, since God is not the author of confusion, are there so many 'Spirit-led' folks in disagreement? The answer is that the enemy has successfully (so far) interjected enough carnal understanding that many who are considered to be pillars and leaders of the church are, in truth, spiritual babes. One thing is sure. ONLY God can straighten this mess out!

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  13. #43
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
    Ok, then in contrast then, what if we had no cannon? Does your method work without it?
    I say no. Paul tells us that God has revealed to each of us He exists, the heavens declare Him, but apart from special revelation we cannot know anything about His character, His nature, and His will. You can tell me all day long that you get direction and guidance from God through His Spirit, and I will agree, but apart from what we learn in Scripture you would know nothing specifically, it is not possible to be sure. Paul argues in Acts 17:27, Romans 1:19-20, 2:15 that God has put within each of us that by nature and conscience we know that He exists, but why does Paul always use revelation to teach. Apart from the mystery of the Church that Paul was privilaged to reveal, he used the Scripture. He did use their own poets and pegan writings to convince them, but it was Scripture that contained the specifics of salvation.
    Mark,

    I'm not proposing doing away with the scriptures. I have deep reverence for them. I'm proposing that God has not stopped speaking to His children through His Spirit, through scriiptures, through others, situations, music, art, poetry, & nature. He speaks through whatever is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, and praiseworthy. The vehicle through which I began my journey in Christ was the scriptures, and they are invaluable...but they are not the plenary revelation of God Himself and of truth to mankind. I believe that people often use the Bible inappropriately, thereby making it an idol. I follow Christ, The scriptures testify of Him. I cannot 'read and do' the Bible, but I can allow the Spirit of Christ to instruct me through the Bible. Does this make sense?

    In the Bible, I learn about God. In walking with Him through my life, I come to know Him. You can know about me by what I write...but you cannot know me without hanging out with me for a long period of time. LIkewise, you can read the scriptures and know the specifics of salvation, but you cannot be saved sans the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Scriptures are the testimony of Christ, but they are not Christ, neither can they save a person. Only Christ does that. Following the Book has led to over 900 denominations. Following Christ has led to life in Him. There is only one body and no man gets to decide who is, and who is not, included. That is why I accept as my sisters and brothers all who name Christ as their savior. If some are weeds, what is that to me?

    W

    PS: I appreciate your words regarding disagreement. This board would be rather unneeded if we all agreed on everthing. I'll never become angry or upset if folks disagree with me, and I'll never fail to change my beliefs if the Spirit convicts me of something wrong in them...and He's definitely NOT finished with me yet!
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  14. #44
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Mark,...........If some are weeds, what is that to me?

    W
    Thats funny too!! I guess you're right there, don't pull 'em, they could be real flowers that need to be watered and fed!!
    PS: I appreciate your words regarding disagreement. This board would be rather unneeded if we all agreed on everthing. I'll never become angry or upset if folks disagree with me, and I'll never fail to change my beliefs if the Spirit convicts me of something wrong in them...and He's definitely NOT finished with me yet!
    I do guess that it is a motivating factor in posting
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

  15. #45
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    The answer is that the enemy has successfully (so far) interjected enough carnal understanding that many who are considered to be pillars and leaders of the church are, in truth, spiritual babes.
    That might certainly explain it. It can also be explained by, some of who are considered to be pillars and leaders of the church, they are actually wolves in sheep's clothing. No reason to think these wouldn't be behind a pulpit. I'm not even remotely suggesting this would be the case everytime. But my guess would be that there's enough of them behind the pulpit to make a difference in some folks lives. It kind of goes with the following IMO.

    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


    And yet another reason why that I have to conclude the canon is closed.

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