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Thread: Canon: closed, open, other?

  1. #76
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I agree that many who think the giftings in Ephesians 4 are actually titles DO try to elevate themselves above others...and they are posers. Christ gifted these people to the church to be servants and they do not exclude anyone from His body. I'm curious...what is the difference in context (re: Ephesians 2-4) seen between you and Slug1?

    Thanks,

    W
    That's exactly it... some think of those positions as a title in the sense... I'm THE PASTOR and all in the church serve me.

    WRONG

    WRONG

    WRONG

    WRONG

    WRONG

    WRONG

    You said it... THEY serve those in the church!!

    Only those with a servants heart CAN be anointed by God.

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

  2. #77
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I'm curious...what is the difference in context (re: Ephesians 2-4) seen between you and Slug1?

    Thanks,

    W
    I have a lot on my plate at the moment so I will have to get back to this thread to explain myself better, if re-reading my earlier post in reply to Slug will not explain or help in that direction.


    God bless.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    I have a lot on my plate at the moment so I will have to get back to this thread to explain myself better, if re-reading my earlier post in reply to Slug will not explain or help in that direction.


    God bless.
    Hooah... I'm still kinda wondering all that you mean.

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

  4. #79
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    I have a lot on my plate at the moment so I will have to get back to this thread to explain myself better, if re-reading my earlier post in reply to Slug will not explain or help in that direction.


    God bless.
    No worries, brother. I understand ye olde full plate! Get back to us when ya can.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  5. #80
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    RE:
    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    I have a lot on my plate at the moment so I will have to get back to this thread to explain myself better, if re-reading my earlier post in reply to Slug will not explain or help in that direction.




    God bless.
    First I want to say that I will usually not quote the bible here or in any public invironment for many reasons, but the fundamental reasons is I am not a teacher, I am a disciple and everyone with the ability to read or have access to His word, unless they are physically disabled or have mental handicaps, have the same opportunity and ability as I do to learn from Him.
    In other word's fill your own lamp with His oil and be prepared for you and yours as I am me and mine.
    (the parable of the ten virgins)
    But, I concede to only two exceptions:
    ...If the question is asked regarding Christ and His work done on our behalf, then I will laybor til my fingers and or feet fall off to quote scripture and or new testament letters and writings for them.
    ...The other exception is: How I am approached/which spirit is being abided under by the one who approaches me with the question and or request to have a passage as a reference for what I share.

    Other than those two: Hey, find and purchase your own oil for your own lamp.
    (the parable of the ten virgins)

    I do not see the author of Ephesians as separating the gifts of His Spirit in a way that would give us a reason to use it to form an exclusive title of anything other than the title of "gifts of the Holy Spirit" the division in Slug's definition of "the five fold ministry" has used Eph 4:11 to retitle the gifts of the Spirit into separate groups afforded the gifts which our Creator does not do.

    I will do my best to show with highlites that Paul is efforting to show the interworkings of the members of Christ body through the gifts afforded them and not setting apart an exclusive group apart from the rest.
    Which categorizing any certain gift or gifts as "the five fold ministry" title does do.

    I highlight the points in these passages that show to me that Paul's selective use of those five gifts in Eph 4:11 is not to separate those gifts from the other gifts as the term "five fold ministry" excludes the other gifts as if they do not minister God will on the earth, and only these selected by Paul do minister God's will on the earth.

    I did not include Eph 2 because I see that 3 n 4 are sufficient to make my point

    Eph 3:1
    For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


    Eph 3:6
    That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


    Eph 4:1
    I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


    Eph 4:10
    He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    Paul's selective use of those five gifts in Eph 4:11 is not to separate those gifts from the other gifts as the term "five fold ministry" excludes the other gifts as if they do not minister God will on the earth, and only these selected by Paul do minister God's will on the earth.




    Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    I think the difference between the gifts given in Eph. 4:11 as compared to the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 are pretty clear. They are similar in that they are all given by God to His Body the Church. The difference is, is that the five-fold ministry are people/servants given specifically for a purpose: perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry and the edification of the Body. The gifts of the Spirit are allotted to everyone as He wills, and are given to the Body at large and are functioning at any given time.

    Let me try to explain what I mean. I am a teacher, not an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor. I don't just wake up tomorrow and suddenly I am a prophet. However, I may give a word of knowledge one week, the next week the Spirit of God may have me use a gift of healing as I pray for someone, and then the following week, nothing happens at all. Yet through all those times and the activities of the Spirit, I remain the gift to the church: teacher. So then the difference is some gifts are functions that are used by any member in the Body as He will (and as we allow Him to will us); and other gifts to the church are people divinely appointed to serve as a gift/grace.

  7. #82
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I think the difference between the gifts given in Eph. 4:11 as compared to the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 are pretty clear. They are similar in that they are all given by God to His Body the Church. The difference is, is that the five-fold ministry are people/servants given specifically for a purpose: perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry and the edification of the Body. The gifts of the Spirit are allotted to everyone as He wills, and are given to the Body at large and are functioning at any given time.
    What you shared makes a big difference in the way I saw what Slug shared now, thank you.

    But to me still the attributes of those five gifts in Eph 4:11 are still gifts of His Spirit and are not separate in function from the many other gifts of His Spirit, they are all to work His will on the earth and the said five are in also included in the list of the gifts in 1st Cor. are they not ? ...meaning they are one in the same (gifts of the Spirit) and there are more than nine of them in our bible's short list, you just need to keep reading to identify them !

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    Let me try to explain what I mean. I am a teacher, not an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor. I don't just wake up tomorrow and suddenly I am a prophet. However, I may give a word of knowledge one week, the next week the Spirit of God may have me use a gift of healing as I pray for someone, and then the following week, nothing happens at all. Yet through all those times and the activities of the Spirit, I remain the gift to the church: teacher. So then the difference is some gifts are functions that are used by any member in the Body as He will (and as we allow Him to will us); and other gifts to the church are people divinely appointed to serve as a gift/grace.
    I fully understand what you are sharing here too, I am surprised how often this is being lifted in my face on this thread because I have not spoken against any such means by which His Spirit chooses to operate.
    To the contrary I offered evidence that God will even use a donkey or rocks to teach or work His will on the earth.
    ...I have received word's of knowledge, but the one giving the word or words were not aware.
    ...I have spoken prophetically (not in a teaching way) but in a forecasting/predicting way about events, the knowledge of which came through exceptionally vivid dreams.
    ...I have seen many things that would have me locked in a rubber room if I revealed them publicly.

    I know His Spirit is not limited or in any defined box to operate from.
    But, we do not need new words or terms to define things that God has already established words for, such as:
    "five fold ministry" to say gifts of the spirit or "___" to say "___" when God has already given His choice of words to define those things.





    To me there is a reason men will change God's terminologies and or definitions, and none of those reasons have ever turned out to be good, period.
    If no one that I have been communicating with on this thread will acknowledge that this is my point then I have nothing left to share here, and will dust my feet.

    ...Look what happened to the ten tribes when they chose to redefine God's definition of where to worship Him at.
    ...Look what happened to Juda when they chose to redefine what the jubilee is and what the sabath rest for the land is.
    ...Look what happened to all of man-kind when Eve allowed the devil to redefine God's words for her.
    ...Doesn't anyone know what iniquity is anymore or what qualifies as an abomination ?



    Father have mercy on all of us.

  8. #83
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    But to me still the attributes of those five gifts in Eph 4:11 are still gifts of His Spirit and are not separate in function from the many other gifts of His Spirit, they are all to work His will on the earth and the said five are in also included in the list of the gifts in 1st Cor. are they not ? ...meaning they are one in the same (gifts of the Spirit) and there are more than nine of them in our bible's short list, you just need to keep reading to identify them !...snip...
    ...I have received word's of knowledge, but the one giving the word or words were not aware.
    ...I have spoken prophetically (not in a teaching way) but in a forecasting/predicting way about events, the knowledge of which came through exceptionally vivid dreams.
    ...I have seen many things that would have me locked in a rubber room if I revealed them publicly.

    I know His Spirit is not limited or in any defined box to operate from.
    But, we do not need new words or terms to define things that God has already established words for, such as:
    "five fold ministry" to say gifts of the spirit or "___" to say "___" when God has already given His choice of words to define those things.

    To me there is a reason men will change God's terminologies and or definitions, and none of those reasons have ever turned out to be good, period.
    Good morning, MoreMercy,

    We might just wind up in that rubber room together! I've seen much and have been given all manner of labels for talking about God's movings. What others think or say doesn't make us who we are, though...our Abba does that

    One of the reasons the manifestations of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 & Romans 12 are viewed somewhat differently than the gifts in Ephesians 4 probably comes from the use of two different Greek words for gift. Gifts in the Corinthian & Roman letters translate, charisma, which can also be translated, grace. Gifts, in Ephesians 4, translates the Greek word, doma. The gifts of Ephesians 4 are equipping and governmental gifts, while those in 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 are not. Both are for the edification and building up of the body of Christ and none should be elevated to a different status than the others. That's part of the trap the Corinthian saints had fallen into.

    At any rate, I understand your pov re: folks using terms not used in scripture!

    Hope your day in the Lord is blessed!

    W

    PS: I realize some apostles, prophets, and teachers are also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12; however, Paul uses them to show that all parts of the body are necessary and of equal importance. He previously had stated that there are differences in administrations, which addresses, IMU, the difference between charismata and doma. The references in the body of my reply to you re: 1 Corinthians 12 concerned verses 7-11.
    Last edited by Watchman; Feb 19th 2012 at 01:40 PM. Reason: my afterthoughts are very consistent..they come AFTER I post
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  9. #84

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    What you shared makes a big difference in the way I saw what Slug shared now, thank you.

    But to me still the attributes of those five gifts in Eph 4:11 are still gifts of His Spirit and are not separate in function from the many other gifts of His Spirit, they are all to work His will on the earth and the said five are in also included in the list of the gifts in 1st Cor. are they not ? ...meaning they are one in the same (gifts of the Spirit) and there are more than nine of them in our bible's short list, you just need to keep reading to identify them !


    I fully understand what you are sharing here too, I am surprised how often this is being lifted in my face on this thread because I have not spoken against any such means by which His Spirit chooses to operate.
    To the contrary I offered evidence that God will even use a donkey or rocks to teach or work His will on the earth.
    ...I have received word's of knowledge, but the one giving the word or words were not aware.
    ...I have spoken prophetically (not in a teaching way) but in a forecasting/predicting way about events, the knowledge of which came through exceptionally vivid dreams.
    ...I have seen many things that would have me locked in a rubber room if I revealed them publicly.

    I know His Spirit is not limited or in any defined box to operate from.
    But, we do not need new words or terms to define things that God has already established words for, such as:
    "five fold ministry" to say gifts of the spirit or "___" to say "___" when God has already given His choice of words to define those things.





    To me there is a reason men will change God's terminologies and or definitions, and none of those reasons have ever turned out to be good, period.
    If no one that I have been communicating with on this thread will acknowledge that this is my point then I have nothing left to share here, and will dust my feet.

    ...Look what happened to the ten tribes when they chose to redefine God's definition of where to worship Him at.
    ...Look what happened to Juda when they chose to redefine what the jubilee is and what the sabath rest for the land is.
    ...Look what happened to all of man-kind when Eve allowed the devil to redefine God's words for her.
    ...Doesn't anyone know what iniquity is anymore or what qualifies as an abomination ?



    Father have mercy on all of us.
    out of all the posts in this thread, this one carries the most weight to me.

    some will tell me what church they belong to and what their doctrine is.

    and so they belong to that church and so does their doctrine.

    but without you telling me, i know what church you belong to and what your doctrine is.

    peace moremercy

  10. #85
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy"
    To me there is a reason men will change God's terminologies and or definitions, and none of those reasons have ever turned out to be good, period.
    If no one that I have been communicating with on this thread will acknowledge that this is my point then I have nothing left to share here, and will dust my feet.

    ...Look what happened to the ten tribes when they chose to redefine God's definition of where to worship Him at.
    ...Look what happened to Juda when they chose to redefine what the jubilee is and what the sabath rest for the land is.
    ...Look what happened to all of man-kind when Eve allowed the devil to redefine God's words for her.
    ...Doesn't anyone know what iniquity is anymore or what qualifies as an abomination ?
    Please don't be upset by this discussion, MM! It's purpose is not to challenge the authority of scripture, rather, it is to challenge assumptions made about the scriptures! I see another one in the quote above. It is this: God deals with us now just as He did under the old covenant. I'm very hesitant to expand on that, though, because I don't want to cause angst!

    love in Jesus,

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Now that you've posted this, I see that we're looking at this topic from two different angles.

    As in the canon being closed... some believe there IS NO MORE prophecy BECAUSE the canon is closed. God will NEVER speak to us directly and we cannot hear from Him anymore except in what is read.
    So then we agree that the Bible is complete, but God still speaks to us directly. Yet whatever we receive from Him will never contradict, add to, or take away from what is written, ( the scriptures)? I think that this is a safe, sound, biblical, and edifying view.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  12. #87
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    So then we agree that the Bible is complete, but God still speaks to us directly. Yet whatever we receive from Him will never contradict, add to, or take away from what is written, ( the scriptures)? I think that this is a safe, sound, biblical, and edifying view.
    What about the momentary guidance He gives us? Whether it is personal direction or words for another or a word about a coming event...these things are mentioned in the scriptures, but are not explicitly given for each of us therein? This is additional information, yes?

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Please don't be upset by this discussion, MM! It's purpose is not to challenge the authority of scripture, rather, it is to challenge assumptions made about the scriptures! I see another one in the quote above. It is this: God deals with us now just as He did under the old covenant. I'm very hesitant to expand on that, though, because I don't want to cause angst!

    love in Jesus,

    Watchman
    I am not upset by the discussion friend, I am upset by the pretentious cherry picking of what I have come here to share.

    I am a living sacrifice to my Master, and very zealous of Him and His corrections, I see where these little changes that we think are insignificant lead us to and they are no good place at all... where did I learn to see these spiritual things ? ...not in our new testament, I only learned of the corrections and remedies to these things we deem insignificant there.
    I learned to see these spiritual things from the lessons that were not learned from our old testament (that Christ came to correct and remedy)

    If you decide to take anything I have came to this thread to share, then please consider taking this what I have to share below:
    Our Creator by His own definition of Himself, does not change.
    Agreed that something major has changed in the way He relates to His creatures that trust in Christ and His work completed, but that robe of Christ that we wear now will be removed once or if we are acknowledge by Christ before His Father on that Great Day. And then we will be accountable once again for our deeds done in the flesh and immediately rewarded by them in our new glorified bodies for eternity.
    So you see friend God does not change, He cannot change.
    What our old testament teaches will not change, it cannot change, it has not changed, only the traditions added to it by men have been corrected by Christ and the prophets words in it fulfilled by Christ.




    Father have mercy on us.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I was raised in a very conservative church group who, IMO, misapplied several passages thus creating a prooftexted, but unwritten, creed of sorts. The passage that spawned the thought for this thread is:

    1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

    This passage was used as a club to ‘scripturally’ enforce a letter of the law type of legalism. When I read it, I see that Paul is simply instructing the saints at Corinth not to esteem one person, or teacher, more highly than another. Scripture is replete with instruction and examples regarding the standing of man in God’s eyes and regarding how we should treat and esteem other people. Anyway, here are some of the conclusions undergirded by assumptions that I see in the replies given so far:


    1. The apostolic age ended with the death of John.
    2. The God-breathed writings stopped with the writing of the Revelation of Christ.
    3. Closing the canon of scripture results in the avoidance of confusion and deception.
    4. The folks who compiled the canon got it absolutely correct and complete.
    5. It is correct because no other compilation of writings has carried the same weight.
    6. Leaving the canon open is akin to adding to God’s words.
    7. The Bible is a lifeline.
    8. We cannot determine the veracity of revelations apart from the Bible.
    9. Since the foundation is laid, we need nothing new with which to build on it.
    10. Our understanding of numeric symbolism shows the canon to be complete.
    11. All things Jesus foretold are contained in the Bible.
    12. Since the canon is closed, God no longer speaks to us directly.

    How can we justify these statements from scripture?

    W
    I was away from the forums for one day, and I got way behind, I see. I notice that point 1, 3, 5, 7, and 8 are points that I confessed to believe, but I don't have time right now to fully reply, I will do that later. I will say that I don't necessarily agree with points 2, 10, or 12, and number 4 cannot be proven from scripture, but is a matter of faith that God is able to superintend his word.

    point 1- The qualifications for apostolic authority are given in Acts 1:21-22.
    point 3- Closing the canon is not what protects us from error, it is the canon, ( scriptures) themselves that does. Even Paul's teachings were subject to testing by the scriptures. ( Acts 17:11) Here we see that the scriptures are the canon, ( the standard or measure), by which ones message is determined to be from God or not from God.

    I will give more replies when I have time.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I was away from the forums for one day, and I got way behind, I see. I notice that point 1, 3, 5, 7, and 8 are points that I confessed to believe, but I don't have time right now to fully reply, I will do that later. I will say that I don't necessarily agree with points 2, 10, or 12, and number 4 cannot be proven from scripture, but is a matter of faith that God is able to preserve his word.

    point 1- The qualifications for apostolic authority are given in Acts 1:21-22.
    point 3- Closing the canon is not what protects us from error, it is the canon, ( scriptures) themselves that does. Even Paul's teachings were subject to testing by the scriptures. ( Acts 17:11) Here we see that the scriptures are the canon, ( the standard or measure), by which ones message is determined to be from God or not from God.

    I will give more replies when I have time.
    Hi glad4mercy,

    Thanks for your reply. This thread took off pretty quickly. I wasn't picking on you when I listed the assumptions/conclusions...you had just replied more than anyone else. Looking forward to hearing more from you!

    blessings,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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