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Thread: Canon: closed, open, other?

  1. #1
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    Canon: closed, open, other?

    From another thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Hi Theophilus,
    Perhaps some scriptural proof that the canon is closed would make for an interesting thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
    Well, then, I'm certainly not going to try Revelation 22:18-19, as I'm not sure the author was talking about all of Scripture, and not just the prophecy found in Revelation.
    However...if it is your contention that there are some inspired works (or works to come) that should be added to what many scholars wiser than I am believe to be a complete, authoritative work (i.e., the 66 books of the Bible), then I suggest you start a thread telling us why we should believe your findings rather than theirs.
    I hope this doesn't turn into something less than edifying. I'm curious as to the evidence folks have used in arriving at the conclusion that the canon of scripture is closed? Let's play nicely!

    blessings,

    Watchman

    PS: the intent of this thread is NOT to be contentious, rather, simply to examine reasons, assumptions, etc, regarding the idea of a closed canon.
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    So far the scripture that some use to support the belief the canon is closed and that this is the reason for the end of three specific Gifts of the Holy Spirit which include... Tongues, Words of Knowledge and Prophetic Words is this one:

    1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

    So is the "perfect" our Bible, or is the "perfect" our Savior when He returns for His Bride?

    I believe the next 3 scriptures bring v10 into a context that shows us that the "perfect" is when Jesus has come.

    v11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


    Verse 12 explains that we will be face to face with the "perfect". Verse 12 also explains that the "perfect" KNOWS us and when face to face with the "perfect", we will KNOW ourselves as the "perfect" knows us.

    Associating that context with the Bible and not Jesus... that don't make any sense to me.
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  3. #3
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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    So far the scripture that some use to support the belief the canon is closed and that this is the reason for the end of three specific Gifts of the Holy Spirit which include... Tongues, Words of Knowledge and Prophetic Words is this one:

    1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

    So is the "perfect" our Bible, or is the "perfect" our Savior when He returns for His Bride?

    I believe the next 3 scriptures bring v10 into a context that shows us that the "perfect" is when Jesus has come.

    v11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


    Verse 12 explains that we will be face to face with the "perfect". Verse 12 also explains that the "perfect" KNOWS us and when face to face with the "perfect", we will KNOW ourselves as the "perfect" knows us.

    Associating that context with the Bible and not Jesus... that don't make any sense to me.
    I agree that this passage does not reference the Bible as we know it...and have been accused of having a terminal case of apostatitis because of it! Why on earth would Paul step out of a discourse regarding the maturity brought about by love to insert something that would be totally irrelevant to his audience?

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  4. #4

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    in simple terms in my own words to surmise my understanding of that concept.

    things are locked and then revealed to each individual on thier own journey.

    also why problems occure when people try to feed teachings to another that they arent ready to consume yet.

    so what may be open to one may be locked to another.

    each individual most be born of spirit and starts out as a babe. a babe cannot pass through doors that an adult does, juvenile and so on.

    and adults will have different things unlocked or locked to them according to Gods will for edification of the church.

    The Spirit in us is same as Christ, the Spirit knows.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    in simple terms in my own words to surmise my understanding of that concept.

    things are locked and then revealed to each individual on thier own journey.

    also why problems occure when people try to feed teachings to another that they arent ready to consume yet.

    so what may be open to one may be locked to another.

    each individual most be born of spirit and starts out as a babe. a babe cannot pass through doors that an adult does, juvenile and so on.

    and adults will have different things unlocked or locked to them according to Gods will for edification of the church.

    The Spirit in us is same as Christ, the Spirit knows.
    I believe the canon closed at the end of the apostolic age, when John wrote whatever his last book was. The canon needed to be closed so that we could be protected from false writings, like the Book of Mormon and the ever-shifting sands of the Jehovah Witness desert of confusion.

    The New Testament canon carries the stamp of apostolic authority. No other book has carried that weight since the beloved apostle died.
    .
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I believe the canon closed at the end of the apostolic age, when John wrote whatever his last book was. The canon needed to be closed so that we could be protected from false writings, like the Book of Mormon and the ever-shifting sands of the Jehovah Witness desert of confusion.

    .
    Scriptural support?

    Besides, if the Bible is closed... that closing sure hasn't protected many from false writings.
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    in simple terms in my own words to surmise my understanding of that concept.

    things are locked and then revealed to each individual on thier own journey.

    also why problems occure when people try to feed teachings to another that they arent ready to consume yet.

    so what may be open to one may be locked to another.

    each individual most be born of spirit and starts out as a babe. a babe cannot pass through doors that an adult does, juvenile and so on.

    and adults will have different things unlocked or locked to them according to Gods will for edification of the church.

    The Spirit in us is same as Christ, the Spirit knows.
    Scriptural support that led to these words that are your own?
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  8. #8

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    If in fact the Canon is still opened, I believe that any new revelation must remain consistent with what has already been revealed within the written 66 books. If it is not, then I believe it is false teaching.

    The world is continually trying to adjust truth. Two specific examples are how more liberal theologians try to justify homosexuality and how society tries to justify living together before marriage. How many times do we hear that the Bible must be adjusted to 21st century living. These two topics are just two of them where society would try to alter truth.

    Not to mention, how would we determine who is speaking truth and who isn't if we accept new doctrinal revelations.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Scriptural support?

    Besides, if the Bible is closed... that closing sure hasn't protected many from false writings.
    I don't know of any scriptural support for either an open canon beyond the end of the first century or for a canon that closed at that time. All I know is that I can trust the Apostles of the Lord to write with inerrancy and infallibility, and I don't know of anyone else since the apostolic age that I can put that kind of confidence in. Can you name a post apostolic writing that even comes close to bearing the weight and the power of the inspired scriptures?

    I think if we try to leave the canon open, we risk leaving ourselves "open" to possible deception. The Word of God is a solid rock that we can build our lives and hopes on. I don't want to try to add to the Word of God.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I don't know of any scriptural support for either an open canon beyond the end of the first century or for a canon that closed at that time. All I know is that I can trust the Apostles of the Lord to write with inerrancy and infallibility, and I don't know of anyone else since the apostolic age that I can put that kind of confidence in. Can you name a post apostolic writing that even comes close to bearing the weight and the power of the inspired scriptures?

    I think if we try to leave the canon open, we risk leaving ourselves "open" to possible deception. The Word of God is a solid rock that we can build our lives and hopes on. I don't want to try to add to the Word of God.
    No. The belief the canon is closed isn't to protect us from false writings, false teachers, false prophets, and false signs. It isn't because the Word of God is "closed" we are protected... we are protected by the Word of God from all this false stuff because WITH the Word of God we can TEST THE SPIRITS, BY the Word of God. When anything false is before us and it is not aligned with scripture... then it is false.

    It's not determined to be false because people claim the canon is closed.

    Just by reading the last two chapters in the Book of John we see that the canon can't be closed because not everything Jesus did and revealed to the Apostles are recorded for us to read.
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    No. The belief the canon is closed isn't to protect us from false writings, false teachers, false prophets, and false signs. It isn't because the Word of God is "closed" we are protected... we are protected by the Word of God from all this false stuff because WITH the Word of God we can TEST THE SPIRITS, BY the Word of God. When anything false is before us and it is not aligned with scripture... then it is false.

    It's not determined to be false because people claim the canon is closed.

    Just by reading the last two chapters in the Book of John we see that the canon can't be closed because not everything Jesus did and revealed to the Apostles are recorded for us to read.
    Well, when I say the canon is closed, I mean the Bible is complete. That is what I thought you meant by "canon". You do believe that the Bible is complete do you not. What precisely do you mean when you use the word "canon"?
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcurtain76 View Post
    If in fact the Canon is still opened, I believe that any new revelation must remain consistent with what has already been revealed within the written 66 books. If it is not, then I believe it is false teaching. The world is continually trying to adjust truth. Two specific examples are how more liberal theologians try to justify homosexuality and how society tries to justify living together before marriage. How many times do we hear that the Bible must be adjusted to 21st century living. These two topics are just two of them where society would try to alter truth.Not to mention, how would we determine who is speaking truth and who isn't if we accept new doctrinal revelations.
    Thank you for this excellent post. If I am not mistaken, the word "canon" means rule or measuring stick. The only reliable rule of faith and practice we have to discern truth from error is the Scriptures, and I hold that the scriptures are complete, therefore the canon is complete. That which we hold to be the standard by which we measure all teachings is the Bible.

    I do believe that God still speaks through illumination, and I even believe that God can speak through a Word of prophecy if He so chooses, but whatever illumination or uttered word we will receive will conform to and be in complete agreement with the Bible. Additionally, the one who may speak in the name of the Lord can not be said to be infallible, which is why the spirits need to be tested, and the utterances must be discerned. The Bible tests the spirits, and discerns the words of a teacher.

    Like SteelCurtain said, if a teaching does not conform to the 66 books, it is a false teaching and a deceiving persuasion. The only thing I would say is that I would prefer the word "illumination" to "revelation" in the first sentence, ie "...any new illumination we receive must be consistent..." but that's just my preference. Good post, SteelCurtain. This coming from a Browns fan...
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  13. #13

    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    yea maybe i wasnt too clear on what i ment.

    i was speaking to peoples understanding of scripture.

    no need to add anything to scripture, its all in there. besides the Holy Spirit gives one understanding.

    the foundation was laid by apostles, the cornerstone set by Christ, you can stack on top but you cant add to the foundation its been laid.

    so if people are speaking to adding to foundation its most unwise.

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    yea maybe i wasnt too clear on what i ment.

    i was speaking to peoples understanding of scripture.

    no need to add anything to scripture, its all in there. besides the Holy Spirit gives one understanding.

    the foundation was laid by apostles, the cornerstone set by Christ, you can stack on top but you cant add to the foundation its been laid.

    so if people are speaking to adding to foundation its most unwise.
    Oh, now I get you! I absolutely agree that our understanding of the scriptures will grow as time progresses and the end approaches. I definitely believe that there are things in the Bible that are still mysterious, but will become clearer and clearer as the future unfolds, and there are things we will not know until we enter into Glory. So our understanding will grow, but the scriptures themselves will not change.

    I do feel the need to condition this statement by saying that I do not accept the teachings of liberal theologians who try to change the basic fiber of the Bible in the name of "Modern Scholarship", and who try to replace the wisdom of God with the skeptical musings of men.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

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    Re: Canon: closed, open, other?

    Paul stated nothing but what Moses, the psalms and the prophets had to say.
    Peter reminded his congregation to remember the Apostles take on the OT.

    The foundation of the New Jerusalem is the Apostles ministry and Jesus being the cornerstone.

    We should build on this.

    If the foundation is laid, then the measuring stick is closed.

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