Canon: closed, open, other?

[Watchman]

That might certainly explain it. It can also be explained by, some of who are considered to be pillars and leaders of the church, they are actually wolves in sheep's clothing. No reason to think these wouldn't be behind a pulpit. I'm not even remotely suggesting this would be the case everytime. But my guess would be that there's enough of them behind the pulpit to make a difference in some folks lives. It kind of goes with the following IMO.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


And yet another reason why that I have to conclude the canon is closed.

There is certainly no shortage of itching ears in the world today. Maybe it is (partially) the word, canon, with which I find a problem. Canon means:

1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
3.
.....a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
.....b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.
4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
5.
.....a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: "the durable canon of American short fiction" (William Styron).
.....b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.

Scripture itself does not define what should be included, what should be officially accepted as Holy Scripture, or who the 'officials' are. There is yet an undetermined amount of future ahead of us. Jesus said the Spirit will tell us what is to come. According to preterists, that telling stops about 70 AD. According to Paul, the day of the Lord will NOT catch us as a thief in the night...yet the timing of that day is not given in scripture. From whence cometh it, then?

W

[Luciano Vinci]

Lies and the words of Satan are recorded as well, whats your point?

I am not quoting the lies or words of satan, however, I am quoting truths (since I believe His word is truth) that are taken from other sources. Even the great Apostle Paul used a pagan source when he stated: "in Him we live and move and have our being." But this pagan philosophical poetry became a Christian truth, and I sing that song all the time.

My position has already been stated above Mark, I believe that the 66 books make up the canon of Scripture. I am not defending other sources, I am just saying they play some part in the teachings in the NT, whether they be apocryphal or historical references. The lies of satan and the comments that are made by men in the flesh that are contained within the Holy Bible are many times obvious lies and untruths. I am talking about truths that originated outside of the Scripture.

[Luciano Vinci]

how many apostles of the lamb are there ?

then please post scripture of anyone besides 12 being called apostles

Here is an interesting Apostle. Junia from Romans 16:7. The name most certainly is that of a female, like that of Priscilla, perhaps another female Apostle.

And if you mean the Apostles of the Lamb to be the original 12. The problem with that would be that Judas is probably not one I would be comfortable with as an Apostle of the Lamb. But if you mean it to mean that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he now makes up the 12th Apostle, then I have to ask where does Paul fit, who is (IMO) the greatest of all the Apostles (besides Jesus - Heb. 3:1)?

[fewarechosen]

Here is an interesting Apostle. Junia from Romans 16:7. The name most certainly is that of a female, like that of Priscilla, perhaps another female Apostle.

And if you mean the Apostles of the Lamb to be the original 12. The problem with that would be that Judas is probably not one I would be comfortable with as an Apostle of the Lamb. But if you mean it to mean that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he now makes up the 12th Apostle, then I have to ask where does Paul fit, who is (IMO) the greatest of all the Apostles (besides Jesus - Heb. 3:1)?

i feel i have been far to hastey when composing my thougths in this thread, but you hit on one of the key points i was looking at.

Christ was corner stone, and 12 foundations were laid.

what names are on 12 foundations ?

some would mostly waver on judas,barnabas,paul, matthias

if we cant see who the 12 apostles of lamb are what are our chances of other apostles

was judas ever an apostle ? who picked barnabas ? who picked matthias ? who picked paul ?

that foundation never has to be reset, its been cast and is only built upon.

the 12 apostles of the lamb are the foundation Christ being cornerstone - no 13th foundation

1Co_3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Co_3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

[MoreMercy]

Are we confusing apostles and disciples.

And are we adding foundations that are not suggested to us from His word.
Christ is the only foundation/cornerstone for me, because He and His Father both describe Him in that way.

Just two thoughts I want to throw in.


Father bless.

[MoreMercy]

RE:

Are we confusing apostles and disciples.

And are we adding foundations that are not suggested to us from His word.
Christ is the only foundation/cornerstone for me, because He and His Father both describe Him in that way.

Just two thoughts I want to throw in.


Father bless.

All apostle are disciples but not all disciples are apostles... something to think about before giving a tilte to one who we have no authority to title.

In my walk behind Christ I see Judas as an apostle still, because He was titled an apostle by Christ by default when Christ sent Him into the land of Israel and Juda to preach and prepare the way for His/Christ's work to be done there.

In my walk behind Christ: I see the early church's move to replace Judas as an apostle as jumping ahead of God's plan and putting their plan or desire (all-be-it good or bad desire and plan) ahead of God's desire and plan.
...In the same way Jacob's move or plan to seize his promised birthright by jumping ahead of God's will and plan.
By tricking his own natural father Issac, Jacob jumped over God's plan to receive what God had already promised to him.

In my walk behind Jesus:
I see Paul/Saul of Tarsus as Jesus's hand picked replacement for the lost apostle. (Judas)


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[fewarechosen]

RE:

All apostle are disciples but not all disciples are apostles... something to think about before giving a tilte to one who we have no authority to title.

In my walk behind Christ I see Judas as an apostle still, because He was titled an apostle by Christ by default when Christ sent Him into the land of Israel and Juda to preach and prepare the way for His/Christ's work to be done there.

In my walk behind Christ: I see the early church's move to replace Judas as an apostle as jumping ahead of God's plan and putting their plan or desire (all-be-it good or bad desire and plan) ahead of God's desire and plan.
...In the same way Jacob's move or plan to seize his promised birthright by jumping ahead of God's will and plan.
By tricking his own natural father Issac, Jacob jumped over God's plan to receive what God had already promised to him.

In my walk behind Jesus:
I see Paul/Saul of Tarsus as Jesus's hand picked replacement for the lost apostle. (Judas)


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

i agree, they rushed to pick matthias and cast lots.

God struck paul blind.

Great point about jacob, i never saw that in the light before.

one other thing that comes to mind as a difference as far as judas is concerned is he never got to the point of having his knowledge unlocked.

[jesse]

From another thread:


I hope this doesn't turn into something less than edifying. I'm curious as to the evidence folks have used in arriving at the conclusion that the canon of scripture is closed? Let's play nicely!

blessings,

Watchman

PS: the intent of this thread is NOT to be contentious, rather, simply to examine reasons, assumptions, etc, regarding the idea of a closed canon.

I think the answer is simple. Read a book, lets say... the Book of Mormon... does it fit in with scripture? I don't believe so. So i have no reason to add it to the cannon. It works that way with all books. That is how the bible came to be. Christians sat down and went over the existing books thought to be "scripture" some were added some taken away. I don't see it as open or closed. But nothing new seems to have come our way and Joseph Smith probably came the closest to a realistic hoax. ( my opinion)

[Watchman]

I think the answer is simple. Read a book, lets say... the Book of Mormon... does it fit in with scripture? I don't believe so. So i have no reason to add it to the cannon. It works that way with all books. That is how the bible came to be. Christians sat down and went over the existing books thought to be "scripture" some were added some taken away. I don't see it as open or closed. But nothing new seems to have come our way and Joseph Smith probably came the closest to a realistic hoax. ( my opinion)

I listed some assumptions earlier in the thread. Here's another one. From where do we get the idea that God wanted all the different writings compiled into a book? Have we assumed such?

W

[MoreMercy]

I may know where your last question is coming from Watchman.

From where do we get the idea that God wanted all the different writings compiled into a book? Have we assumed such?

For my own conscience I can say for sure that the compilation of our old testament is what is referred to in our new testament as "scripture" and also referred to as scripture in our OT too.

That being said: men, all of us including myself refer to the new testament also as scripture, but our bibles have no such qualifications or validations for that, only men's traditions have shared and applied that name or title to our new testaments letters and writings.

I try to consciously refer our new testament in my conversations as our: NT letters and writings and refer to our old testament as scripture. But I do not always do that in my communication.

But the thoughts as to the reasons I try to do that is what I am trying to explain here now, which I think might be the direction your suggestions or questions are going ?



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

Hi MoreMercy,

What about:

1 Peter 3:14-16 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

This statement seems, to me, to include many of the NT writings as scripture...at least, Paul's writings. What say you?

blessings,

W

[Slug1]

The 12 apostles of the Lamb were, indeed, foundational because they were the first. The NT, though, names about 22 apostles. Also the gift of apostle was given to equip the saints UNTIL the church reaches Christ's full stature...which has not, IMU, yet happened.

blessings,

W

I agree!

When I read Fewarechosens post I'm thinking... ummmm, way more than 12 apostles.

Scripture tells us of the Five-Fold ministry as well and none of that has ended. If it has, then the church can't be equipped as God intended.

That is the WHOLE purpose of satan inspired doctrine that says "the perfect" is the Bible and thus... God don't speak through tongues, words of knowledge and prophecy. This is the WHOLE purpose of satan inspired doctrine that says not all the Five-Fold ministry is still active.

Soon as people believe in either of those false doctrines, that means that satan has DISABLED the Body of Christ from LISTENING to God when He speaks through tongues, words of knowledge and prophecy. That means that satan has DISABLED the FULL provision of EQUIPPING that God has given to the Body of Christ.

Many don't believe people in the Body of Christ are apostles (servants that raise up churches and builders of the faith in lands where there is no church or faith in God), nor do people believe there are prophets (servants that God speaks through so God's will can edify and give specific revelation and direction to the Body of Christ). That leaves the Body of Christ 2/5th SHORT of how God "HAS" EQUIPPED the Body of Christ.

Many give into the doctrines, many others do not and while God is using servants to raise up churches in the world where ONLY by God's anointing is that possible, those many who give into the doctrines continue to say... there are no apostles. Believe what you (those who hold to such doctrines) want, in the meantime God is using what you don't believe... to do His will with those who DO believe. Same with prophets... so go on believing in your doctrine, go on speaking out against the manifestations of the Holy Spirit i.e. tongues, words of knowledge and prophecy... while you keep on NOT believing and speaking out against the Holy Spirit , God will KEEP ON using those who DO believe and His work continues... to His glory.

[MoreMercy]

Hi MoreMercy,

What about:

1 Peter 3:14-16 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

This statement seems, to me, to include many of the NT writings as scripture...at least, Paul's writings. What say you?

blessings,

W

I see in the book Peter and a few other passages from other books in our new testament letters and writings that give those said writings and letters as much weight as scripture, but do not see them as referring to them as scripture, so, no.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[fewarechosen]

question slug

besides the 12 apostles of the lamb do you think any other apostle can lay foundation ?

[Slug1]

question slug

besides the 12 apostles of the lamb do you think any other apostle can lay foundation ?

Paul was either number 13 or 14 based on understanding. I say he was a 14th Apostle.