Canon: closed, open, other?

[MoreMercy]

As for other or un-canonized books: I would receive what jesse's shared in post #53
And also heed what steelcurtain76 and others have shared at the beginning of this thread.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Slug1]

question slug

besides the 12 apostles of the lamb do you think any other apostle can lay foundation ?

Question...

Do you think I'm saying an "apostle" of the Five-Fold ministry is the SAME as an Apostle that was used by God back in the day???

[MoreMercy]

Question...

Do you think I'm saying an "apostle" of the Five-Fold ministry is the SAME as an Apostle that was used by God back in the day???

Question...

Where is the biblical foundation to or of "Five-Fold ministry"
I am uneducated to that term.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Slug1]

Question...

Where is the biblical foundation to or of "Five-Fold ministry"
I am uneducated to that term.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Eph 4:¹¹ And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ¹² for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, ¹³ till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ¹⁴ that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, ¹⁵ but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— ¹⁶ from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

What I underlined is called - The Five-Fold Ministry

[MoreMercy]

Just to keep you from trying to paint me or anyone into a corner, let me share these thoughts also:

God can and has used a donkey to teach men.

He says that all of His creation testifies to, of and for Him, meaning not just scripture and or NT letters and writings instruct us.

He says He will or can raise rocks to replace our worship and praise of Him an even can transfer our inheritance to those rocks.

But, these unacknowledged on this thread as of yet facts still remain:

OT: "There is nothing new under the sun."
NT Christ speaking: "I have foretold you all things."

...whether all of us will or can understand all of those foretold things is irrelevant toward the threads question in light of the OT's "there is nothing new under the sun"

Here is my ambiguous answer to the threads question:
Eve attached a question mark while quoting God, and look what happened.

What say ye ?



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[fewarechosen]

Paul was either number 13 or 14 based on understanding. I say he was a 14th Apostle.

ahh that tells me all i need to know.

Rev_21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

Mar_6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Luk_9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

one was cut off one was grafted in and there are only 12 who laid the foundation, he ordained 12 not 13 not 14

apostles of the lamb, names written on the foundation.

im sure these days many want to run around saying they are apostles of the lamb, but scripture assures me he only chose 12

[MoreMercy]

Eph 4:¹¹ And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ¹² for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, ¹³ till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ¹⁴ that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, ¹⁵ but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— ¹⁶ from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

What I underlined is called - The Five-Fold Ministry

Ahhh !
The gifts of the Spirit, well why didn't you just say so ?

Let me share this, so maybe some will attach a few more ministering abilities to the/your "five-folds"
Prayer and intercession.
Edification.
Praise.
Service. (manual labor) toward the maintenance and day to day operation of the His bodies physical structures (buildings, equipment and grounds)
Empathy.
Interpretation/tongues.
And many many more that are not even presented in our bible's many short list of said gifts.

There is nothing new under the sun, Slug1.
cherry picking is cherry picking...


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Slug1]

Ahhh !
The gifts of the Spirit, well why didn't you just say so ?

Let me share this, so maybe some will attach a few more ministering abilities to the/your "five-folds"
Prayer and intercession.
Edification.
Praise.
Service. (manual labor) toward the maintenance and day to day operation of the His bodies physical structures (buildings, equipment and grounds)
Empathy.
Interpretation/tongues.
And many many more that are not even listed in our bibles short list of said gifts.

There is nothing new under the sun Slug1 !
cherry picking is cherry picking...


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Purpose for the Five-Fold Ministry is... secure and provide location, gather, teach, disciple, give direction to and ultimately EQUIP all those examples you gave.

[MoreMercy]

Purpose for the Five-Fold Ministry is... secure and provide location, gather, teach, disciple, give direction to and ultimately EQUIP all those examples you gave.

To me it still sound quasi elitest and very exclusive of those who God does not exclude from His body the church.

Even if some one has to get the ball rolling to plant a church, this does not raise them above or below any other functioning member of His body.

I do not see Eph 2 through 4 and beyond in the same context as you, maybe we should just leave it at that, up to you ?


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Slug1]

To me it still sound quasi elitest and very exclusive of those who God does not exclude in the His body the church.
I do not see Eph 2 through 4 and beyond in the same context as you, maybe we should just leave it at that.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

It would be great if every person who accepts Jesus are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers... wouldn't it? Then who would be sitting in the congregations?

Know that the person who is willed by God to be the door greeter in a church is JUST AS important as one who is to be willed by God to be any of those in the Five-Fold ministry. Nothing elitest about being in any of those five positions and quite frankly... I'm surprised by that statement from you dude.

Think about this too... if a person is willed by God to be a prophet and they happen to be in a church that doctrine states there are no more prophets... well, they're in disobedience as they continue to resist and rebel against God's will for them.

That is what those false doctrines cause.

[MoreMercy]

It would be great if every person who accepts Jesus are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers... wouldn't it? Then who would be sitting in the congregations?

Know that the person who is willed by God to be the door greeter in a church is JUST AS important as one who is to be willed by God to be any of those in the Five-Fold ministry. Nothing elitest about being in any of those five positions and quite frankly... I'm surprised by that statement from you dude.

I apologize for my frankness but that is how it has approached my eyes when receiving that term's definition from you here.

One ministering ability/gift that I did not mention in my earlier list here, was discernment (pinging) as you call it, an which I am fond of and have adopted that as my own term for that ability/gift now also.
...the term "five-fold ministry" is exclusive and cherry picked for the purpose of reinforcing one or more denomination's doctrine.

Think about this too... if a person is willed by God to be a prophet and they happen to be in a church that doctrine states there are no more prophets... well, they're in disobedience as they continue to resist and rebel against God's will for them.

That is what those false doctrines cause.

That is exactly my point slug1
The use of Eph 4 to create a movement or establish a doctrine causes division in His body, His church.
The examples I gave were to express that. Even though those five abilities that the author in Ephesians mention do the foot work, it is Christ who establishes a new church, just as even though some have the ability to "ping" it Is Christ who did the light shining through the one who "pinged"
They are joined through Christ (all of them who function with the Spirits gifts). There is no separating them.

Using Eph 4 to separate or set a portion of those functioning members apart from other functioning members with the Spirits gifts is not the intention of the author in Eph 4, when you read the chapter(s) prior to and after that chapter and verse.

So the one who created that term "five fold ministry" AND the ones who still embrace that term are on sandy ground.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Slug1]

I apologize for my frankness but that is how it has approached my eyes when receiving that term's definition from you here.

One ministering ability/gift that I did not mention in my earlier list here, was discernment (pinging) as you call it, an which I am fond of and have adopted that as my own term for that ability/gift now also.
...the term "five-fold ministry" is exclusive and cherry picked for the purpose of reinforcing one or more denomination's doctrine.


That is exactly my point slug1
The use of Eph 4 to create a movement or establish a doctrine causes division in His body, His church.
The examples I gave were to express that. Even though those five abilities that the author in Ephesians mention do the foot work, it is Christ who establishes a new church, just as even though some have the ability to "ping" it Is Christ who did the light shining through the one who "pinged"
They are joined through Christ (all of them who function with the Spirits gifts).

Using Eph 4 to set a portion of those functioning members apart from other functioning members with the Spirits gifts is not the intention of the author in Eph 4, when you read the chapter(s) prior to and after that chapter and verse.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

You may just need to study what the Five-Fold ministry is all about then. Each has a purpose and has been given to the Body of Christ, BY God Himself.

Now... man has MADE those positions exclusive and the fruit of that is evident in the tone of your comments as this IS upsetting.

I'm a pastor (an associate)... I still clean the bathroom in the church and plunger the toilet when a child clogs it up... I'm the exclusive handyman

I don't worry about those who make those positions exclusive. I worry about those HURT by or led astray by or led into false doctrine(s) BY those who set themselves above all else in the Body of Christ and have made themselves exclusive. NOT all are anointed except by other men and those who are not anointed by God and are by man... they are usually the ones who feel they are exclusive and thus... produce false/bad fruits.

"Pinging" What memories huh??

[MoreMercy]

You may just need to study what the Five-Fold ministry is all about then. Each has a purpose and has been given to the Body of Christ, BY God Himself.

Now... man has MADE those positions exclusive and the fruit of that is evident in the tone of your comments as this IS upsetting.

I'm a pastor (an associate)... I still clean the bathroom in the church and plunger the toilet when a child clogs it up... I'm the exclusive handyman

I don't worry about those who make those positions exclusive. I worry about those HURT by or led astray by or led into false doctrine(s) BY those who set themselves above all else in the Body of Christ and have made themselves exclusive.

"Pinging" What memories huh??

I am looking up that ministries statement of faith at this very moment, for my education.
...But whether I can amen their statement of faith or not does/will not change my perception of the error in the use of Eph 4 that you shared with me earlier.

Everything and anything can damage His sheep slug1 (even the/His truth can) depending on the end result though and not dependent on the immediate result, growth is painful, if it isn't then there was probably no growth.

"pinging" very fond memories indeed !



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

To me it still sound quasi elitest and very exclusive of those who God does not exclude from His body the church.

Even if some one has to get the ball rolling to plant a church, this does not raise them above or below any other functioning member of His body.

I do not see Eph 2 through 4 and beyond in the same context as you, maybe we should just leave it at that, up to you ?

I agree that many who think the giftings in Ephesians 4 are actually titles DO try to elevate themselves above others...and they are posers. Christ gifted these people to the church to be servants and they do not exclude anyone from His body. I'm curious...what is the difference in context (re: Ephesians 2-4) seen between you and Slug1?

Thanks,

W

[Slug1]

I am looking up that ministries statement of faith at this very moment, for my education.
...But that does not change my perception of the error in the use of Eph 4 that you shared with me earlier.

I'll ask a friend for a good link and/or resource on the internet to look over.

Everything and anything can damage His sheep slug1 (even the/His truth can) depending on the end result though and not dependent on the immediate result, growth is painful, if it isn't then there was probably no growth.

No doubt... the enemy uses the very words of the Bible against us. This standard was set when he tempted Jesus and used scripture in a false context. Same is happening today.

"pinging" very fond memories indeed !

Amen!!