Canon: closed, open, other?

[glad4mercy]

Hi glad4mercy,

Thanks for your reply. This thread took off pretty quickly. I wasn't picking on you when I listed the assumptions/conclusions...you had just replied more than anyone else. Looking forward to hearing more from you!

blessings,

W

Thanks Watchman. I didnt think you were picking on me, but I was sorry that I hadnt replied after 4 pages. I changed the word preserve to superintend in the following statement below, as I thought it conveyed what I was trying to say more clearly. Blessings to you.

number 4 cannot be proven from scripture, but is a matter of faith that God is able to superintend his word.

[Watchman]

If you decide to take anything I have came to this thread to share, then please consider taking this what I have to share below:
Our Creator by His own definition of Himself, does not change.

Amen! Our knowledge of Him, our perceptions of Him, our understanding about His will and plan, and our knowing Him WILL change, though, and that often throws a monkey-wrench into our previously-held beliefs.

Agreed that something major has changed in the way He relates to His creatures that trust in Christ and His work completed, but that robe of Christ that we wear now will be removed once or if we are acknowledge by Christ before His Father on that Great Day. And then we will be accountable once again for our deeds done in the flesh and immediately rewarded by them in our new glorified bodies for eternity.

I'd like, at some point in the future, for us to explore this statement a bit more. I'm not disagreeing with you, just would like to see this topic expanded.

What our old testament teaches will not change, it cannot change, it has not changed, only the traditions added to it by men have been corrected by Christ and the prophets words in it fulfilled by Christ.

Amen again. Do you see the pov that God is dealing with mankind differently under the new covenant than He previously dealt with folks under the old covenant to be the same as declaring a change in God?

Thanks!

W

[Watchman]

...number 4 cannot be proven from scripture, but is a matter of faith that God is able to superintend his word.

I have absolutely no doubt that God's word will be superintended and preserved forever. But, (you knew there'd be a but, didn't you!), the word of the Lord is primarily, first and foremost, the Christ. I'm not sure our references to the scriptures as the word of God is what was in view in 1 Peter 1:25. Those who preached the word preached Christ. Am I making myself understood clearly?

blessings,

Watchman

[MoreMercy]

Amen again. Do you see the pov that God is dealing with mankind differently under the new covenant than He previously dealt with folks under the old covenant to be the same as declaring a change in God?

If I understand your question correctly, no I do not.

I'd like, at some point in the future, for us to explore this statement a bit more. I'm not disagreeing with you, just would like to see this topic expanded.

I will have someone send you an invite to a closed group here on these forums for that discussion if you wish, where you or we need not go directly into the said conversation but it is a place where deeper discussions will not confuse or lead astray young in the His faith christians, nor offend set in their ways christians.

I actually considered having an invite sent to you two days ago, even before we began our discussion here because I recognize many matured qualities of Christ in you, so the invite is as good as sent.
It will be in your hands how you respond to it, please allow a day for the invite to be sent.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

Kewl! And thanks. A closed forum is a great idea, since many things that get discussed are meat for which some are not prepared! I love meat, but sometimes get too much at once and choke!

blessings,

W

[amazzin]

Those are not gifts of the spirit. They are ministry gifts that equip the saints in the work of God

Ahhh !
The gifts of the Spirit, well why didn't you just say so ?

Let me share this, so maybe some will attach a few more ministering abilities to the/your "five-folds"
Prayer and intercession.
Edification.
Praise.
Service. (manual labor) toward the maintenance and day to day operation of the His bodies physical structures (buildings, equipment and grounds)
Empathy.
Interpretation/tongues.
And many many more that are not even presented in our bible's many short list of said gifts.

There is nothing new under the sun, Slug1.
cherry picking is cherry picking...


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

Those are not gifts of the spirit. They are ministry gifts that equip the saints in the work of God

.............

Both types of gifts edify and profit the body of Christ; the doma gifts are also equipping gifts, so the saints can be equipped for the work of ministry.

W

[fewarechosen]

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

all gifts come from the Spirit. there are differences in administration, but all the gifts given to any part of administratin is of the spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

[Watchman]

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

all gifts come from the Spirit.

Yes, all gifts come from the Spirit; however, all gifts do not function the same. All edify, but all do not equip for ministry...hence the difference in administrations.

W

[fewarechosen]

Yes, all gifts come from the Spirit; however, all gifts do not function the same. All edify, but all do not equip for ministry...hence the difference in administrations.

W

if one is given the gift of ministry - it comes from same spirit as that of prophecy and so on and so on

ministry is a gift

they are diverse, but one can never seperate them because then you have more than one body.

you do nto group one group of gifts and seperate them from another group of gifts, all gifts are already seperated in how they function yet they come together as a whole.

ministry is not set apart and given different gifts, ministry is a gift. a gift from the same spirit that gives all gifts.

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co_12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you

[Slug1]

Those are not gifts of the spirit. They are ministry gifts that equip the saints in the work of God

Hooah... my mistake was not posting JUST the scriptures as I did and then post nothing else. That way, God could do the speaking. Sometimes trying to explain God's meaning isn't received and it was probably best I had just posted scripture and not say a word

[Slug1]

So then we agree that the Bible is complete, but God still speaks to us directly. Yet whatever we receive from Him will never contradict, add to, or take away from what is written, ( the scriptures)? I think that this is a safe, sound, biblical, and edifying view.

Yes... the Bible is complete enough to accomplish this...

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[Watchman]

Yes... the Bible is complete enough to accomplish this...

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

.........................................

[Watchman]

if one is given the gift of ministry - it comes from same spirit as that of prophecy and so on and so on

ministry is a gift

they are diverse, but one can never seperate them because then you have more than one body.

you do nto group one group of gifts and seperate them from another group of gifts, all gifts are already seperated in how they function yet they come together as a whole.

ministry is not set apart and given different gifts, ministry is a gift. a gift from the same spirit that gives all gifts.

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co_12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you

I think we are in agreement here. One gift does not function as the other (is not administered as are the others), yet all are from the same Spirit and all are needed for proper functioning of the body of Christ.

W

[MoreMercy]

Ahhh !
The gifts of the Spirit, well why didn't you just say so ?

Let me share this, so maybe some will attach a few more ministering abilities to the/your "five-folds"
Prayer and intercession.
Edification.
Praise.
Service. (manual labor) toward the maintenance and day to day operation of the His bodies physical structures (buildings, equipment and grounds)
Empathy.
Interpretation/tongues.
And many many more that are not even presented in our bible's many short list of said gifts.

There is nothing new under the sun, Slug1.
cherry picking is cherry picking...


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Those are not gifts of the spirit. They are ministry gifts that equip the saints in the work of God

Thank you amazzin for adressing the issues I am posting towrad.
However, I still totally disagree as does Paul, apparently too:

Please give attention special to verses 11, and 26 through 31
As the foundation for my belief that these gifts mentioned in Eph 4:11 are in fact Gifts of His Holy Spirit.
The gifts are included by Paul as gifts of His Holy Spirit and there is no grouping or separating them for the purpose of distiction as the term: "five fold ministry" does.
Even though in Eph 4:11 Paul does separates them for the sole purpose of making His point of the purpose or function of those selected said gifts there.

If we look toward the end of this chapter also authored by Paul but maybe penned by Luke we will see that they are included and titled as "gifts" of the Holy Spirit.
(note) : if this chapter is not enough for us then there are similar readings that support them as gifts of His Spirit also in Pet ch 4, John ch 14, Acts ch2 and 1Cor ch1

1Cr 12:1
Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.


6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?


16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.


21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.



Father have mercy on us.