When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

[chad]

The prosperity gospel is not something preached in our part of the world. The main teaching I have seen is from TV Evangelists.

I do believe though that God wants to bless and prosper those who come to him for Salvation. The first thing we receive is forgiveness of sins. As we learn Gods word and humbly walk in his ways and obey his commands, God will bless us. As we live our lives by the Holy Spirit and in prayer God will bless us in abundance, with his love, wisdom, spirit and guidance...and so much more.

If only people knew if the true love of love of God in their lives daily and how much God loves them and wants to bless them, they would be filling the church pews by the masses. Not for financial gain of the things of this world, but for who God is.

When did that happen? And, who else is disturbed by the fact that we call that "victory"? Or "prosperity"?

Who dares believe God for the humanly impossible that only He can do? Who dares believe God for people's salvation?

Is His arm shortened so that He cannot save?

I didn't see God's arm shrink any. Did you?

[Reynolds357]

I was called just about every denigrating name I can think of on a Facebook forum for pointing out the fallacies of the name it and claim it prosperity 'gospel.' That is a poisonous teaching...and you may tell Kenneth Copeland I said so!

I would like to know why one automatically thinks that anyone who believes in prosperity falls under the umbrella of "name it and claim it."

[Brother Mark]

But sir ... it's in Scripture already that God desires ALL men to be saved. I think we can live under the assumption that this is true and real and use it as our basis for operation. What are we waiting for? Angels alighting in our living room and extending us an extra special invitation to go share the Gospel with people?

However ... I really do think many just don't flat-out believe those Scriptures. Maybe they don't like the "obligation" they think this places them under, maybe they don't like the "failure" of witnessing for Christ and hearing crickets chirp (which, granted, can be rather disheartening).

But if there is failure ... that's between God and the other person. Long as we are faithful to what we are to do ... God don't hold us accountable for what other people decide with their invitation to come to Christ. We extend party invitations and entertainment invitations and all sorts of things. We know how to invite people. Why not keep an open invitation to come to Christ for everyone we interact with, and seek opportunities to extend it? If the RSVP is "no" or "maybe" ... not our problem. Coming to Christ is a freewill offering. Always has been. So why do we think us inviting someone to come isn't freewill but obligatory?

This may come as a shocker to you ... but we don't have to do anything Jesus says. We choose to. Certainly love compels us, and I've never met a person with love for the Lord, who didn't keep His commandments or at least strive very hard to. Because love transforms and changes us. But at the end of the day, it's all still voluntary. Or love isn't love.

IF we want to see the Kingdom of God and be in it ... we MUST be born again. But ... if we don't want to ... we don't want to. Some people just don't want to. And, we have to learn to accept that, and not take it as personal failure. Because the Bible also already tells us that the world is at enmity with God, and so hostility and rejection ... should be expected. We only harvest ripe fields. You leave the others alone. Right? Cause to try and harvest them would be silly. They're not ripe yet and so God can't get anything useful from them anyway.

If you extend the invitation and you encounter hostility and rejection right out of the gate ... then move on. Like Paul moved on from the Jews to the Gentiles. 'salright. I'm pretty darn glad he did.

It's a marvelous thing to believe God for a soul. Just one. When you realize how precious someone is and how much one person means to God. So maybe stop believing for that bigger house or that next better job and start tossing your faith into the ring to contend for the real treasures: People.

And by "you" in this context I mean "whoever feels spoken to".

Well, I think I misunderstood your original post then. By "believing God for a soul" I take that to mean believing God for someone specifically to be saved and trusting Him that person will be saved.

What you are talking about is believing that God desires to save someone. That is different than what I imagined at first.

For instance, God woke my pastor one day and told him "I want to save 100 souls today. Start praying for them now." He got all excited about people getting saved in church that day. Well, some did but nowhere close to 100. So he was discouraged and eating lunch, his wife asked what was wrong. He told her. He wasn't sure what had happened. Then, he got a phone call from a friend. That friend had went to teach the bible that morning to some boy scouts. He was so excited about what had happened. He told my pastor he just had to call someone and let them know. He saw 100 boy scouts get saved that day! That's what I thought you meant about believing God for souls.

I've had God put people on my heart and interceded for them until they got saved. That's what I thought you meant as well.

Hearing God is important in those situations! But you are talking about believing scripture and going into the harvest as Jesus requested. I didn't know that had ever changed in our churches today.

[Brother Mark]

Many have lost the desire to know the heart of God.

This is a big part of it. But it doesn't have to be about money either. Remember the Ephesians? They kept doing all the good things, but they left their first love. It's easy to move from wanting to know the Father's heart into just going about our duty. It's tragic. I would imagine that many have done so. I know I have. Sometimes, life itself hardens us. There can be many reasons. When we know Him, we will love Him. But it is easy to be deceived about the heart of God and even church and good works can distract us from that just as the love of money and other things can.

[Dani H]

Well, I think I misunderstood your original post then. By "believing God for a soul" I take that to mean believing God for someone specifically to be saved and trusting Him that person will be saved.

What you are talking about is believing that God desires to save someone. That is different than what I imagined at first.

For instance, God woke my pastor one day and told him "I want to save 100 souls today. Start praying for them now." He got all excited about people getting saved in church that day. Well, some did but nowhere close to 100. So he was discouraged and eating lunch, his wife asked what was wrong. He told her. He wasn't sure what had happened. Then, he got a phone call from a friend. That friend had went to teach the bible that morning to some boy scouts. He was so excited about what had happened. He told my pastor he just had to call someone and let them know. He saw 100 boy scouts get saved that day! That's what I thought you meant about believing God for souls.

I've had God put people on my heart and interceded for them until they got saved. That's what I thought you meant as well.

Hearing God is important in those situations! But you are talking about believing scripture and going into the harvest as Jesus requested. I didn't know that had ever changed in our churches today.

No that's alright. I just needed to get clarity on your statement. I'm glad you did; because it turns out, we're on the same page on this one. That is awesome, about your pastor, and about you interceding for people to be saved until it happens (which is what I also frequently do ... except I do it until God tells me it's done; and I just take His word for it and move on ... and He is so faithful to always let me know later on when it mainfests). That's exactly what I mean about believing God for souls! It's very encouraging to know that there are other people out there actually doing exactly that, and God responding with salvation. God is so very good! I'm happy I started this thread!

[14390876]

Be careful if you think you stand.

In the last week my pastor told the story of a couple they knew. Both were solid, active church members, on fire for God. Then suddenly my pastor gets a call from earlier this month that this couple has just renounced Christ. And all it took was a little deception that had just slowly made them doubt God's character.

This kind of thing is going keep on happening until we wake up and realize that we have to serve God and the people around us and be out there spreading the gospel. You are either on a mission to reach out to the nations or you are praying for those that are out there doing it. There are far too many spectators in church. They want entertainment, to feel better emotionally and to go home and be nice and comfortable. Now, there are people who are still in need of healing and there are those for whom going to church is an effort, and every time they go, that simple act of faithfulness is seen and counted and one day God will take them further. But there are so many people who expect God to do something for them. And the prosperity gospel plays right into their hands.

We were not called to live boring Christian lives. We were meant to go out and change nations. Lives that full of godly excitement and that affect the people around us in such away that they will see Jesus. And all we need to do is slot into Him and He will do it all through us. We don't need to be worthy or perfect we just need to be willing Willing to do his will. Willing to obey the command to go. Willing to give everything, even our very lives, for the sake of the Gospel. We only need to be willing And when we slot into Him, we will see the imposable happen. We will see lives change for God(one of the most awesome things you can ever see). God has given us gifts and talents, not for ourselves to make us rich and comfortable, not to boast in or because we are better, but so that we can use it to bless others. to give to others. The problem is that people are hording everything for themselves and like a pool becomes stagnant when it has no outflow, so those who are spiritually (or materially) fat will stagnate and everything in them will begin to die.

And for this reason I pray that God will keep waking us up. That He will challenge people where they are finding security in money, possessions, relationships or anything else except Him. That He challenges those who are living comfortably. The church cannot keep ignoring the cry of the widows and the fatherless. I pray that we can one day say that we are innocent of the blood of all men, because when the need came, we responded. That we did everything we could to bring in the harvest.

I am excited about this year because I believe that its going to be a year of serious shaking for some, for stepping up to the plate for others. It's a year for those who are faithful to be courageous. To be bold in what we say and do and to no longer fear the world, or the opinion of man, or to worry about material needs. At least that's what I am hoping for.

[ChristianCoffee]

I would like to know why one automatically thinks that anyone who believes in prosperity falls under the umbrella of "name it and claim it."

"Name it and Claim it" is just a short way of saying that people who preofess this doctrine are basically trying to use God as a great big warehouse to give them all that they want. If they really wanted to "Name it and Claim it", they would be looking to follow the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. Then they would be claiming their gifts when they got to Heaven, instead of claiming gifts here on earth where rust, moths and thieves destroy them.

It is an easy doctrine to fall into, because it really appeases to mans sinful nature: believing that God will give them their wants, instead of their needs. It breaks more hearts and makes people question their relationship with God more then most other false teachings. The principal of it lies in faith: you have to have enough faith. And the major way to sew that faith is to give money to people like a **NAMING PASTORS IS NOT ALLOWED. tHEY ARE NOT HERE TO DEFEND ACCUSATIONS**, then you will get what you want from God.

It is just so wrong on so many levels: I feel great sadness for anyone caught in that web of lies.


In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

[VerticalReality]

I don't know. I imagine if we look hard enough, we could probably pick each other to death. I don't agree with what a lot of preachers teach on the subject of prosperity; at the same time, though, I do believe God desires to prosper His people. I would agree more with the teacher who states God desires to prosper His people than I would the teacher who insists God wants His people dirt poor and barely capable of survival. Poverty is not a fruit of the Spirit. It's a by-product of a fallen world. All we have to do to see that is look at what God has in store for each of us when the new heaven and new earth come to pass. I think sometimes people think that if they live poor enough then this somehow makes them more spiritual. I liken it to the fasting Pharisee who walks around with the sunken demeanor drawing attention to the fact that he is so "holy" as to deny his desire to eat. Of course, there are extremes on both sides. I don't think God cares much about all His people rolling around in a Bentley or living in the luxury of Beverly Hills. However, I also believe that if we follow God's word with our whole heart, and we do unto others how we would desire they do unto us, I have no doubt God's way will prosper a man/woman. Now, if we are to compare ourselves to the time when Jesus walked this earth and the persecution that they endured for the gospel's sake, I would say the situation would be a lot different. However, I believe that in America right now, living by godly principles will still prosper a person. That probably won't be the case for long as our culture is fastly becoming more ungodly. However, godly principles of love, faithfulness, kindness, etc., will take a person a long way. In fact, in my organization, those attributes will promote a person through the ranks mighty fast. I just think we ought to be a little more careful on this topic.

[Brother Mark]

No that's alright. I just needed to get clarity on your statement. I'm glad you did; because it turns out, we're on the same page on this one. That is awesome, about your pastor, and about you interceding for people to be saved until it happens (which is what I also frequently do ... except I do it until God tells me it's done; and I just take His word for it and move on ... and He is so faithful to always let me know later on when it mainfests). That's exactly what I mean about believing God for souls! It's very encouraging to know that there are other people out there actually doing exactly that, and God responding with salvation. God is so very good! I'm happy I started this thread!

It's been rare with me. But the Lord sometimes puts a person on my heart and that is when it starts. A dear friend of mine got saved and was miraculously delivered from drug addiction. He became my roommate and we prayed often for his dad. During those times, the Holy Spirit would fall on us and intercede through us. I remember just weeping for this man's soul. One night, we went to a small church and enjoyed their praise and worship and preaching. At the end, we both went to the altar. I was praying for his dad and the Lord said "It's done". At that point, I could no longer pray. I got up and went looking for my friend. He said he got a word from the Lord. I said "I did too but you go first." He informed me that the Lord had told him his dad would be saved. I just laughed! God had told me it was done. His dad got saved a short time later.

[shepherdsword]

When did that happen? And, who else is disturbed by the fact that we call that "victory"? Or "prosperity"?

Who dares believe God for the humanly impossible that only He can do? Who dares believe God for people's salvation?

Is His arm shortened so that He cannot save?

I didn't see God's arm shrink any. Did you?

This stopped as soon as we became idolatrous and coveting. We missed the profound truth of God's main promise to Abraham and sought the ones that fulfilled our fleshly greed. He told Abraham:

Gn 15:1 Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward


Like Abraham,after we get this revelation we then say:

Gn 15:2 . And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me?

It took years of trails and dealing to purify Abraham's question. Once he was perfected he was willing to offer up to God,that which he desired most. We often have to undergo the same process. I notice that many of the prosperity teachers quote the verse about Abraham being rich in silver and gold but they never quote the main promise.


He is our reward!

[Dani H]

I don't not believe in material prosperity. I also believe that if God prospers you, then as a believer you ought to use that as a platform for greater giving because in the end, those are still all God's resources and you can't take any of it with you.

However, our faith is more precious than gold or silver as far as God is concerned. That is what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:7. Why do we sow something so base as money, then, and call that valuable? We have something far more valuable to sow, that God has given us each a measure of: Faith! If we have faith as a mustard seed, right? If we sow that faith, believing God ... we can expect a harvest, should expect a harvest. 30 - 60 - 100 fold even! If we have even a tiny amount of faith, we can sow that into the ground and start believing God for a return. The Kingdom is ALWAYS fertile soil! Souls are ALWAYS the harvest God is looking for!

I've never once been in a situation where I asked God for more faith to believe for a person's salvation, that He didn't give it to me. If I come to the end of my own faith ... God will give me His. So that together we labor for his Kingdom to actually manifest in people's lives as they turn to Jesus for salvation.

Jesus died for people. The Holy Spirit is here to save people. Okay? Are we going to join Him in that? I am here because the Holy Spirit convicted me, brought me to Jesus, and then sealed me. I am no more important than the next person. To God, every last person on this planet matters equally to Him. God didn't save me cause I'm special or chosen or some member of some elite group. I'm special cause God saved me. God saved me because some person, somewhere bothered to actually believe God for my salvation and work with Him to make it happen. That's not grounds for boasting but rather grounds for humility. We're all in the Kingdom because some other person (or group of people) saw us as a treasure and invested in us and worked together with God to bring us in. I believe that with every fiber of my being; I believe that we are all in some way answers to someone else's prayer and the fruit of someone else's labor; maybe someone we don't even know or never even heard about. I believe that we've been left with a legacy by the generations before us, to give to the generations after us (should Jesus not return in our generation): Their salvation. The continuity of the Kingdom. Because it's 2000 years later, y'all, and here we all are, born again the same way those 2000 years ago were. And, it's going to continue until Jesus returns. Because in every generation there are people of faith, who invest their faith into His Kingdom.

Gold, silver, oil, diamonds ... those are earthly commodities that perish, but we talk about them and chase after them as if they had any eternal value.

There is only one treasure, only one commodity in the Kingdom: People.

God paves heaven's streets with gold. He uses what we call "precious stones" as building materials like we do bricks. To God, all that stuff is FAR less valuable than people . He uses it to build a city for people to live in. Get your head wrapped around that one ... seriously. God doesn't show us these things in Revelation so we can go "wow look how rich God is". He shows us these things so we understand how valuable we are. That is our home, y'all. Okay? Prepared by Jesus for us like He said He would. A home fitting for our true worth. Is that all meant literally? Maybe, maybe not. But it certainly conveys a message of how valuable we all are to God, really.

But you see the enemy, he has people of the world call good evil, and evil good. Fallen men and women ... destroy each other in the name of gold, silver and diamonds. In the name of money and riches.

Yet, we as believers live in a Kingdom where rules are different and values are different. We are not of the world any longer. We belong to that eternal, heavenly Kingdom with Jesus as our King and so His perspective and values ought to become our own.

And so ...

Those people you complain about that don't seem to ever want to go away ... those thorns in your side ... start believing God for their salvation. Maybe that is why they won't go away? Because God wants you to believe for their salvation? We can either rant and rave about what the world is coming to and complain about this atheist or that Muslim or those homosexuals ... or we can believe God to save those same people out from the world and add to His Kingdom. Like He did us.

[14390876]

I basically agree with Vertical Reality, that where we have needs God will certainly provide. I also believe that some people really are called to do business and he even intends for people to excel in certain gifts that are not necessarily gifts that you would expect to see, say in church. God calls us to excellence, not mediocrity in any sense. Also, doing work, even if that is running a company or being a teacher or being an artist, is very spiritual, because if that is your calling and you are doing as unto the Lord, then you are in fact no longer just doing it for the money (which ends up being the bonus) then doing the job well becomes a reward in itself. Not only this, but your colleagues will notice it and because by nature people are looking for success, if they see you are successful, they are going to want to know why, and that is the perfect opportunity to say something like "can I tell you what true 'victory' is? Remember Job. Job died a rich man. God could afford to give him riches, because He knew Job's trust was not in his wealth but in Him. The important thing to note is that Job didn't seem to do that much to earn that wealth. Rather it was just the way God chose to bless Job.

How do you run a ministry without money? Try sending people to India on missions without money. Where does the resources for these things come from? So sometimes God does provide materially but always for a purpose.

The issue isn't money or material wealth, the issue is focus. It's your heart. Because if you are focused on God and on serving Him, then, whether you are rich or poor is not important. If you understand that what you own belongs to God and He can take it at any time and God knows you willl still trust him and serve him even if He takes it all away, then I do believe God can (but won't necessarily) bless you with material stuff.

[Reynolds357]

"Name it and Claim it" is just a short way of saying that people who preofess this doctrine are basically trying to use God as a great big warehouse to give them all that they want. If they really wanted to "Name it and Claim it", they would be looking to follow the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. Then they would be claiming their gifts when they got to Heaven, instead of claiming gifts here on earth where rust, moths and thieves destroy them.

It is an easy doctrine to fall into, because it really appeases to mans sinful nature: believing that God will give them their wants, instead of their needs. It breaks more hearts and makes people question their relationship with God more then most other false teachings. The principal of it lies in faith: you have to have enough faith. And the major way to sew that faith is to give money to people like a **NAMING PASTORS IS NOT ALLOWED. tHEY ARE NOT HERE TO DEFEND ACCUSATIONS**, then you will get what you want from God.

It is just so wrong on so many levels: I feel great sadness for anyone caught in that web of lies.


In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

It is unfair and to be quite blunt dishonest to put all prosperity teaching under one umbrella. It is kind of like saying a Lutheran and an Independent Baptist are the same because they are both protestants.
The "prosperity gospel," as many want to call it, was made popular in the modern era by Kenneth E. Hagin. I studied under Hagin in Seminary. His teaching on the subject is quite scriptural and defendable. There are many abuses of his teaching running rampant. The fact that the abuses exist should not cause all to be thrown out in the same scrap heap. Hagin wrote "the Midas touch" to specifically deal with the abuses in the "prosperity" movement. Those who bash "prosperity preachers" need to back up a bit and bash specific preachers by name who are preaching excess and abuse. Criticism needs to be leveled at specific teachers and their specific errors; not thrown out in blankets.

[14390876]

It is unfair and to be quite blunt dishonest to put all prosperity teaching under one umbrella. It is kind of like saying a Lutheran and an Independent Baptist are the same because they are both protestants.
The "prosperity gospel," as many want to call it, was made popular in the modern era by Kenneth E. Hagin. I studied under Hagin in Seminary. His teaching on the subject is quite scriptural and defendable. There are many abuses of his teaching running rampant. The fact that the abuses exist should not cause all to be thrown out in the same scrap heap. Hagin wrote "the Midas touch" to specifically deal with the abuses in the "prosperity" movement. Those who bash "prosperity preachers" need to back up a bit and bash specific preachers by name who are preaching excess and abuse. Criticism needs to be leveled at specific teachers and their specific errors; not thrown out in blankets.

Absolutely agree with you. We must test everything and not accept or reject something just because it is popular (or not popular). Rather we must look at what is being said, test it against scripture and be lead by the Holy Spirit.

I think there is a danger in "balanced" Christianity as well, but I do think that we must also look out for extremes and trying to make things universal. You can't say rich people = bad Christians or poor people = good Christians (or vice versa) (not saying that is what is being said, I am just saying that is the kind of trap one can fall into when one starts attacking "the prosperity gospel", and so we must be very clear on what we are saying and what we are not saying). We have to look at the fruit. If the fruit in a rich person's life is good, is it going to become better fruit if he suddenly becomes poor? To me the point is, like I said, where your focus is. are you looking at your own needs or God's will?

Does that make sense?

[ChristianCoffee]

It is unfair and to be quite blunt dishonest to put all prosperity teaching under one umbrella. It is kind of like saying a Lutheran and an Independent Baptist are the same because they are both protestants.
The "prosperity gospel," as many want to call it, was made popular in the modern era by Kenneth E. Hagin. I studied under Hagin in Seminary. His teaching on the subject is quite scriptural and defendable. There are many abuses of his teaching running rampant. The fact that the abuses exist should not cause all to be thrown out in the same scrap heap. Hagin wrote "the Midas touch" to specifically deal with the abuses in the "prosperity" movement. Those who bash "prosperity preachers" need to back up a bit and bash specific preachers by name who are preaching excess and abuse. Criticism needs to be leveled at specific teachers and their specific errors; not thrown out in blankets.

I thought I had done that by pointing to **NAMING PASTORS IS NOT ALLOWED. tHEY ARE NOT HERE TO DEFEND ACCUSATIONS**, . I have to step out for a bit, but I will make a list of those who teach this false doctrine when I return.

In Him,

CC

Romans 8:16