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Thread: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

  1. #31
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    If y'all don't mind, I'd rather not get into teacher bashing and naming names, and if this thread goes that way I will ask the Mods for a shutdown because that wasn't my intention for starting it to begin with.

    Because while there are certain folk teaching unbiblical Mammon chasing thinly disguised as anything having to do with "faith" ... they're not here to defend themselves and I'd rather address OUR error in having had anything to do with these teachings. Because I can't repent of Preacher XYZ's sin. I can only repent of my own. Which I have, in this regard because as a baby believer I too got waylayed by this junk ... when you live in modern-day Babylon (and I'm not saying America IS Babylon but certainly we can see glimpses of it in our culture, can we not?) ... it can be difficult to not let its mindsets run off with you, especially if one is not mature in the faith and taught incorrectly.

    I can only see Scripture for myself, become convicted of its truth, and obey God for myself. Certain individuals wouldn't have that big a platform if folk could be bothered to study Scripture for themselves instead of taking the lazy route of second-hand teaching (yep, pointing at myself here yet again). Because Scripture also tells us that people set up those teachers for themselves, to have their ears tickled, and so the error here certainly isn't one-sided (even though teachers do receive stricter judgment as we all know).

    Matter of fact the American TVangelist hoop-lah junk of the prior decades, I think, has been summarily kicked in the fanny by God and as a result has forced many inside the Church to reevaluate their stance on a lot of these things as we've become the laughing stock of the world, and I am actually thankful for that because we can now focus on what actually matters. Let God judge those who remain slaves to the mindset of Babylon and her material excesses. He is able. Let's also ask God to judge any remaining trace of Babylon within us, if we dare, teach us what "enough" means and teach us what it means to really be satisfied with Jesus alone so we can focus on the whole soul business without becoming distracted.

  2. #32
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani H View Post
    If y'all don't mind, I'd rather not get into teacher bashing and naming names, and if this thread goes that way I will ask the Mods for a shutdown because that wasn't my intention for starting it to begin with.

    Because while there are certain folk teaching unbiblical Mammon chasing thinly disguised as anything having to do with "faith" ... they're not here to defend themselves and I'd rather address OUR error in having had anything to do with these teachings. Because I can't repent of Preacher XYZ's sin. I can only repent of my own. Which I have, in this regard because as a baby believer I too got waylayed by this junk ... when you live in modern-day Babylon (and I'm not saying America IS Babylon but certainly we can see glimpses of it in our culture, can we not?) ... it can be difficult to not let its mindsets run off with you, especially if one is not mature in the faith and taught incorrectly.

    I can only see Scripture for myself, become convicted of its truth, and obey God for myself. Certain individuals wouldn't have that big a platform if folk could be bothered to study Scripture for themselves instead of taking the lazy route of second-hand teaching (yep, pointing at myself here yet again). Because Scripture also tells us that people set up those teachers for themselves, to have their ears tickled, and so the error here certainly isn't one-sided (even though teachers do receive stricter judgment as we all know).

    Matter of fact the American TVangelist hoop-lah junk of the prior decades, I think, has been summarily kicked in the fanny by God and as a result has forced many inside the Church to reevaluate their stance on a lot of these things as we've become the laughing stock of the world, and I am actually thankful for that because we can now focus on what actually matters. Let God judge those who remain slaves to the mindset of Babylon and her material excesses. He is able. Let's also ask God to judge any remaining trace of Babylon within us, if we dare, teach us what "enough" means and teach us what it means to really be satisfied with Jesus alone so we can focus on the whole soul business without becoming distracted.
    I will agree with you on this, and be mostly a silent observer. My background in false teachings tends to get going when I get involved in discussions like this.

    I apologize for having offended anyone, if I did. It was not my intention.

    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:15-17
    "You're gonna make a difference when you lay down your life, and in complete submission to God, choose to die with Him in service to other people."
    "Sometimes it concerns me, you know, the number of people that can quote my songs, and-- or they can quote the songs of several different people, but they can't quote the Scriptures."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZLFGZ6zpeI
    Rich Mullins

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianCoffee View Post
    I will agree with you on this, and be mostly a silent observer. My background in false teachings tends to get going when I get involved in discussions like this.

    I apologize for having offended anyone, if I did. It was not my intention.

    In Him,

    CC

    Romans 8:15-17
    No it's quite alright, and believe me, I DO understand. Feel free to expose and refute the teachings, but leave the names unsaid. Per Paul's example in Scripture.

    I'm also personally interested in the views you do hold regarding salvation, believing God for souls, and etc, so please feel free to stick around.

  4. #34
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    ADMIN NOTE:

    **NAMING PASTORS IS NOT ALLOWED. THEY ARE NOT HERE TO DEFEND ACCUSATIONS**,
    Amazzin

    Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

    CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!




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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by amazzin View Post
    ADMIN NOTE:

    **NAMING PASTORS IS NOT ALLOWED. THEY ARE NOT HERE TO DEFEND ACCUSATIONS**,
    I agree with your policy. Having said that, I think it is also very unfair to some pastors and believers to get criticized as a group because of the abuses of others that they are not responsible for. It is kind of like Saying "Southern Baptist Pastors." There are thousands of SBC pastors and because one says something does not mean they all said it. "Prosperity Preachers" is an equally false and abusive label. It lumps the ultra extremists in the same group as some very honest men of God who have done great work for The Kindgom.

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynolds357 View Post
    It is unfair and to be quite blunt dishonest to put all prosperity teaching under one umbrella. It is kind of like saying a Lutheran and an Independent Baptist are the same because they are both protestants.
    The "prosperity gospel," as many want to call it, was made popular in the modern era by Kenneth E. Hagin. I studied under Hagin in Seminary. His teaching on the subject is quite scriptural and defendable. There are many abuses of his teaching running rampant. The fact that the abuses exist should not cause all to be thrown out in the same scrap heap. Hagin wrote "the Midas touch" to specifically deal with the abuses in the "prosperity" movement. Those who bash "prosperity preachers" need to back up a bit and bash specific preachers by name who are preaching excess and abuse. Criticism needs to be leveled at specific teachers and their specific errors; not thrown out in blankets.
    I did make a comment on "prosperity teachers" but sure didn't mean to offend you. In fact I used the term "we" in my post because I think that sometimes we all get side tracked from the most important blessing of having God as our reward. Any teacher can do this,not just one who teach prosperity. Logic would ask if we are all supposed to be poor and needy who would then give to the poor? If we are told to remember the poor then that speaks that there are some who are not,does it not?. We all get on tangents sometimes and not everyone has a money tangent but it is still a tangent just the same.

    Blessings

    and Popcorn


    "You can make the scriptures say whatever you want if you torture them long enough"

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    I did make a comment on "prosperity teachers" but sure didn't mean to offend you. In fact I used the term "we" in my post because I think that sometimes we all get side tracked from the most important blessing of having God as our reward. Any teacher can do this,not just one who teach prosperity. Logic would ask if we are all supposed to be poor and needy who would then give to the poor? If we are told to remember the poor then that speaks that there are some who are not,does it not?. We all get on tangents sometimes and not everyone has a money tangent but it is still a tangent just the same.
    You did not offend me. I just do not think it is fair to lump all who believe in "prosperity" into the same group. The perception among Christians is that everyone who believes in prosperity follows and believes identically with brother so and so that has a bunch of Royles Royces and a $7k toilet seat and is always begging for seed to be sown into his ministry. In all fairness, that is simply not the case.

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Okay then.

    Let me tell you the reason why I started this thread:

    I'm sure y'all remember the tsunami that hit the Indian Ocean in 2004. I was deeply troubled by it (of course) and mourned the loss of life because it seemed so senseless to me. Intercession is what I do and it was at that time God started dealing with me about the 100-fold harvest, and I ended up responding to His call to believe for the salvation for people: 100 souls for every life senselessly lost. Now you might say "weather is weather" or you might say "God probably brought judgment and those people got what they deserved" or you might say ... well I don't know what you might say. I only know my reaction and what God said to me. I don't define God with my theology. I let God define my theology and He wins, every time. I also know there is a being out there who hates God and everything about God and every person God created in His image, who seeks to kill, steal and destroy and who is given power through man's rebellion against God as well as also working to foster said rebellion because he don't want to quit the power trip he's been on for thousands of years. So there's a lot of factors going into what I believe about what happens in our world, as you can see.

    Anyway I came away from the encounter thinking "I wonder if God even heard that and if that was even real". But I had poured my heart out, laid my faith out there and responded best I knew how. But I'm sure you can relate that sometimes we come away from an encounter with the Lord "back" into what calls itself "reality" and the difference can at times be rather jarring (waiting for the day when it is no longer so). I'm also certain that I wasn't the only one being called to intercede for this situation. When something is that big ... lots of believers pay attention and there's a lot of prayer happening, usually. I do realize that.

    Didn't hear a peep about it again until last year when I read a report that because of the tsunami, relief organizations were able to go into that area, and the Gospel was shared and salvation for many people resulted in an area where a lot of sex trafficking had been happening prior to said tsunami (of course that's the stuff you won't find reported in "official" media anywhere, but God knows all and sees all, doesn't He?). I don't remember the numbers but they were significant. I also remember my jaw hitting the ground (figuratively speaking).

    I have no idea what your theology is, or isn't. But I know intercession and what happens when we take whatever faith we have and connect it with our God who rewards those who seek Him and who cannot be pleased without faith. In intercession, I learn what faith is, how it works, and of its true power.

    So then the other day I was reading a report of some believers having been massacred by a certain group of people. Again I was grieving, again I was heart broken, again I turned to God for answers. Again He dealt with me about taking my faith and if I would dare believe Him for a harvest for every person martyred for their faith in Christ? To which I once again responded with throwing whatever faith I could muster out there and meet up with God and asking Him to please supply what I was lacking and to make it happen as He desired. Took some struggling and some wrestling because that's a tall order to believe for. But when God says "do" then Dani does.

    And I'm really just asking if there are others who God speaks to like that, who understand that link between faith and intercession and prayer resulting in salvation of people in responds to God's call to them.

    I know there are a great many people believing God for a great many things: Provision, healing, mercy, forgiveness, help, deliverance and ... you name it. I know that. Because life can be difficult and I'm certain that we are all in some situation that has us hanging by a more or less thin thread. I'm just really wondering what would happen if we gave all those situations to the Lord, knowing He has every intention of being faithful to us, but that He also has every intention to really save the world He came to save to begin with and fulfill His promises to Himself and to us (realizing that without said promises Dani wouldn't be saved ... and I am ever so grateful that I am), calling us to be a part of standing on those promises as being one with Him and being people of faith and using us in some way to make it all happen.

    There you go.

  9. #39

    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    A young fellow who has been struggling with the faith and who is now saved, I believe, on the streets for years brought me the key to a Jeep Cherokee which he had found.

    "You always say you don't need all that stuff but wouldn't turn down a Jeep Cherokee if someone gave it to you. Well this is the best I could do."

    "Tis the thought that counts," was my reply


  10. #40
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani H View Post
    Okay then.

    Let me tell you the reason why I started this thread:

    I'm sure y'all remember the tsunami that hit the Indian Ocean in 2004. I was deeply troubled by it (of course) and mourned the loss of life because it seemed so senseless to me. Intercession is what I do and it was at that time God started dealing with me about the 100-fold harvest, and I ended up responding to His call to believe for the salvation for people: 100 souls for every life senselessly lost. Now you might say "weather is weather" or you might say "God probably brought judgment and those people got what they deserved" or you might say ... well I don't know what you might say. I only know my reaction and what God said to me. I don't define God with my theology. I let God define my theology and He wins, every time. I also know there is a being out there who hates God and everything about God and every person God created in His image, who seeks to kill, steal and destroy and who is given power through man's rebellion against God as well as also working to foster said rebellion because he don't want to quit the power trip he's been on for thousands of years. So there's a lot of factors going into what I believe about what happens in our world, as you can see.

    Anyway I came away from the encounter thinking "I wonder if God even heard that and if that was even real". But I had poured my heart out, laid my faith out there and responded best I knew how. But I'm sure you can relate that sometimes we come away from an encounter with the Lord "back" into what calls itself "reality" and the difference can at times be rather jarring (waiting for the day when it is no longer so).

    Didn't hear a peep about it again until last year when I read a report that because of the tsunami, relief organizations were able to go into that area, and the Gospel was shared and salvation for many people resulted in an area where a lot of sex trafficking had been happening prior to said tsunami (of course that's the stuff you won't find reported in "official" media anywhere, but God knows all and sees all, doesn't He?). I don't remember the numbers but they were significant. I also remember my jaw hitting the ground (figuratively speaking).

    I have no idea what your theology is, or isn't. But I know intercession and what happens when we take whatever faith we have and connect it with our God who rewards those who seek Him and who cannot be pleased without faith. In intercession, I learn what faith is, how it works, and of its true power.

    So then the other day I was reading a report of some believers having been massacred by a certain group of people. Again I was grieving, again I was heart broken, again I turned to God for answers. Again He dealt with me about taking my faith and if I would dare believe Him for a harvest for every person martyred for their faith in Christ? To which I once again responded with throwing whatever faith I could muster out there and meet up with God and asking Him to please supply what I was lacking and to make it happen as He desired. Took some struggling and some wrestling because that's a tall order to believe for. But when God says "do" then Dani does.

    And I'm really just asking if there are others who God speaks to like that, who understand that link between faith and intercession and prayer resulting in salvation of people in responds to God's call to them.

    I know there are a great many people believing God for a great many things: Provision, healing, mercy, forgiveness, help, deliverance and ... you name it. I know that. Because life can be difficult and I'm certain that we are all in some situation that has us hanging by a more or less thin thread. I'm just really wondering what would happen if we gave all those situations to the Lord, knowing He has every intention of being faithful to us, but that He also has every intention to really save the world He came to save to begin with and fulfill His promises to Himself and to us (realizing that without said promises Dani wouldn't be saved ... and I am ever so grateful that I am), calling us to be a part of standing on those promises as being one with Him and being people of faith and using us in some way to make it all happen.

    There you go.
    Those aid organizations were able to go in and spread the gospel because of money.
    There is a balance between the belief that Christians are going to be Zillionaires and the Christians are supposed to starve to death for the glory of God.

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynolds357 View Post
    Those aid organizations were able to go in and spread the gospel because of money.
    There is a balance between the belief that Christians are going to be Zillionaires and the Christians are supposed to starve to death for the glory of God.
    Do you not think God is aware that some things require money?

    Do you not think that when we focus on souls ... God will provide whatever means required to make certain things happen, without us having to even ask Him for those specifically? That He knows how to speak to people and move them to send checks here and there and other things as necessary and as He sees fit? And, to also provide for our needs also as we ask on the behalf of others and toss our faith into the ring to see people saved?

    I understand the balance you mention and I don't disagree. But I also understand that it's fine for us to leave certain details up to God and distribute provision as He chooses when we make a priority what God makes a priority.

    I've been dead broke in a homeless shelter, and I have also lived in relative comfort. Each time, God is God. Each time, He has taught me how to be content and to focus on Him and let Him handle certain specifics in my life. Each time, I have seen His provision when I looked outside myself and focused on the things that matter to God. He does all kinds of stuff when I'm not even looking. It's alright. He is able.

  12. #42

    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Dani, could you explain in a little more detail what you are referring to?

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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by GitRDunn View Post
    Dani, could you explain in a little more detail what you are referring to?
    Actually if you want the lowdown in detail, I refer you to a book called "The New York City Noon Prayer Meeting".

    Little did one man know what setting aside 1 hour each day for prayer during his lunch was going to start.

    A revival around the world was the outcome.

    I reckon there have been others, long before him because it all builds on each other, but that is a book accessible enough to show people how believing prayer impacts salvation.

    For every Billy Graham ... there are people somewhere on their knees praying in the harvest before another reaps it.

  14. #44
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani H View Post
    Do you not think God is aware that some things require money?

    Do you not think that when we focus on souls ... God will provide whatever means required to make certain things happen, without us having to even ask Him for those specifically? That He knows how to speak to people and move them to send checks here and there and other things as necessary and as He sees fit? And, to also provide for our needs also as we ask on the behalf of others and toss our faith into the ring to see people saved?

    I understand the balance you mention and I don't disagree. But I also understand that it's fine for us to leave certain details up to God and distribute provision as He chooses when we make a priority what God makes a priority.

    I've been dead broke in a homeless shelter, and I have also lived in relative comfort. Each time, God is God. Each time, He has taught me how to be content and to focus on Him and let Him handle certain specifics in my life. Each time, I have seen His provision when I looked outside myself and focused on the things that matter to God. He does all kinds of stuff when I'm not even looking. It's alright. He is able.
    Yes indeed. I do think we all agree on that. Like I said, it's about focus. Jesus said first seek the kingdom and if that is really what we are doing, God will do the rest. So I think I hear what you are saying.

    I myself am also called to be an intercessor, and I happened to be trained as a social worker as well. Just in the last few weeks God has brought people on my path who I just suddenly connect with and instantly i know that I have to pray for them, which I am currently doing. The other day while I was at the weekly intercession which my church does, I suddenly knew again that God wants me to do something around poverty and children. I do not know what or how yet, but I am convinced that this is what He told me. So yes, I am with you on this one.
    "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."


    in all your ways acknowledge Him, and he will make your paths straight.


    Many are the afflictions of the righteous; But Jehovah delivereth him out of them all.

  15. #45
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    Re: When did we stop believing God for souls and started believing Him for stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dani H View Post
    Okay then.

    Let me tell you the reason why I started this thread:

    I'm sure y'all remember the tsunami that hit the Indian Ocean in 2004. I was deeply troubled by it (of course) and mourned the loss of life because it seemed so senseless to me. Intercession is what I do and it was at that time God started dealing with me about the 100-fold harvest, and I ended up responding to His call to believe for the salvation for people: 100 souls for every life senselessly lost. Now you might say "weather is weather" or you might say "God probably brought judgment and those people got what they deserved" or you might say ... well I don't know what you might say. I only know my reaction and what God said to me. I don't define God with my theology. I let God define my theology and He wins, every time. I also know there is a being out there who hates God and everything about God and every person God created in His image, who seeks to kill, steal and destroy and who is given power through man's rebellion against God as well as also working to foster said rebellion because he don't want to quit the power trip he's been on for thousands of years. So there's a lot of factors going into what I believe about what happens in our world, as you can see.

    Anyway I came away from the encounter thinking "I wonder if God even heard that and if that was even real". But I had poured my heart out, laid my faith out there and responded best I knew how. But I'm sure you can relate that sometimes we come away from an encounter with the Lord "back" into what calls itself "reality" and the difference can at times be rather jarring (waiting for the day when it is no longer so). I'm also certain that I wasn't the only one being called to intercede for this situation. When something is that big ... lots of believers pay attention and there's a lot of prayer happening, usually. I do realize that.

    Didn't hear a peep about it again until last year when I read a report that because of the tsunami, relief organizations were able to go into that area, and the Gospel was shared and salvation for many people resulted in an area where a lot of sex trafficking had been happening prior to said tsunami (of course that's the stuff you won't find reported in "official" media anywhere, but God knows all and sees all, doesn't He?). I don't remember the numbers but they were significant. I also remember my jaw hitting the ground (figuratively speaking).

    I have no idea what your theology is, or isn't. But I know intercession and what happens when we take whatever faith we have and connect it with our God who rewards those who seek Him and who cannot be pleased without faith. In intercession, I learn what faith is, how it works, and of its true power.

    So then the other day I was reading a report of some believers having been massacred by a certain group of people. Again I was grieving, again I was heart broken, again I turned to God for answers. Again He dealt with me about taking my faith and if I would dare believe Him for a harvest for every person martyred for their faith in Christ? To which I once again responded with throwing whatever faith I could muster out there and meet up with God and asking Him to please supply what I was lacking and to make it happen as He desired. Took some struggling and some wrestling because that's a tall order to believe for. But when God says "do" then Dani does.

    And I'm really just asking if there are others who God speaks to like that, who understand that link between faith and intercession and prayer resulting in salvation of people in responds to God's call to them.

    I know there are a great many people believing God for a great many things: Provision, healing, mercy, forgiveness, help, deliverance and ... you name it. I know that. Because life can be difficult and I'm certain that we are all in some situation that has us hanging by a more or less thin thread. I'm just really wondering what would happen if we gave all those situations to the Lord, knowing He has every intention of being faithful to us, but that He also has every intention to really save the world He came to save to begin with and fulfill His promises to Himself and to us (realizing that without said promises Dani wouldn't be saved ... and I am ever so grateful that I am), calling us to be a part of standing on those promises as being one with Him and being people of faith and using us in some way to make it all happen.

    There you go.
    I hear you sister!! I have been called to intercede too, and the Lord has brought the things you speak of to my attention.I have prayed for the right heart, a heart of compassion, to pray as I should.As for faith? We have the power of the universe on our side, for we are praying in agreement with the desires of His heart! When you pray in agreement with God, things happen!

    Like I said in my earlier post, we need to seek to understand the heart of God, for His heart is set on saving souls! His desire is that all men be saved, and His direction to us is to be fishers of men! We get ourselves so wrapped up in the temporary, that we forget that life is but a vapour in the wind, a millisecond in eternity. That millisecond is all we have to reach souls, either by witnessing or by prayer. Have you seen that time clock, can't remember where to find it, but it shows how many souls(I'm sure it's even more than it states) are stepping into eternity on any given hour or day! It makes me weep and weep to think how many never came to Christ!

    I went through a really difficult time a couple of years back. I needed healing, houses, finances,so many things. As I began to pray earnestly for my needs, the Lord very quickly told me He knew my needs before I spoke, and His promises to provide were true. He then told me what to pray for, and gave me a great burden for it. It was souls! He was asking me to pray for souls to be saved, and leave my own situation to Him. He refocused my view, from the temporary, to the eternal, from me to others.

    Seek God, seek souls, for what else matters in the long run?

    blessings to you
    My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
    ------
    "To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them." A.W.Tozer

    The Lifehouse Skit

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