There will be a sun or there won't be a sun in eternity?

[divaD]

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The above would be some of the main passages indicating no more sun someday.


Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The above passages seem to indicate the sun has to go on shining forever, as well as the moon and stars. So either we have a contradiction or a misunderstanding.

Since context determines meaning, then I would think that's the only way to solve this seemingly contradiction. So what are your thoughts on this and why?

[jayne]

To me, the Psalms passage and the Jeremiah passage that you have cited seem to be poetic in nature describing the consistency and permance of God by comparing Him to what humans would understand as consistent and seemingly permanent - the sun, moon, and stars. I don't see these latter two passages as describing literal undying stars and other natural objects in the heavenlies.

[divaD]

To me, the Psalms passage and the Jeremiah passage that you have cited seem to be poetic in nature describing the consistency and permance of God by comparing Him to what humans would understand as consistent and seemingly permanent - the sun, moon, and stars. I don't see these latter two passages as describing literal undying stars and other natural objects in the heavenlies.

So let me ask this then, using the Psalms 72 example. Why use something as an example that really doesn't continue forever? Why say His name shall endure for ever, then say His name shall be continued as long as the sun, if the sun itself doesn't literally continue forever? No contrast is being used here, but a comparison instead.

[fewarechosen]

i think things here on earth/universe are a shadow of spiritual things.

i think the sun that gives light that we see with our eyes.

is a shadow of the Sun that gives light to our souls.

Mal_4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Rev_10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:


so while one is made up of crude elements, the other is made of real Light

i think those things are only discerned by the Spirit. so i pray.

(btw some cool threads divaD)

[markedward]

So let me ask this then, using the Psalms 72 example. Why use something as an example that really doesn't continue forever? Why say His name shall endure for ever, then say His name shall be continued as long as the sun, if the sun itself doesn't literally continue forever? No contrast is being used here, but a comparison instead.

We have to give a fair amount of freedom for the use of hyperbole in stuff like the psalms and in the prophetic material.

For the psalmist, compare the duration of the sun compared to the duration of a man. In the eyes of the psalmist, the sun has been around for thousands upon thousands of years, and will remain in the sky for another thousands upon thousands of years. Yet a man can only live an average of 70-80 years. The writer is just using hyperbole: the sun will be around far longer than even a thousand generations of man, so for as long as the sun sits in the sky God will remain faithful to his people. It's really just a poetic guarantee: if the sun's still up there, you know God is still faithful.

For the prophetic material in Isaiah and Revelation, it is again hyperbole, with a heavy dose of metaphor. God is light, and he is the one who truly lights our lives. (After all, it was God who is light who created the sun. God's light is superior to the sun's light.) It's an extended application of the 'God is light and we abide in the light' type of metaphor that we find in 1 John. I don't believe it is meant to be taken literally at all.

[divaD]

We have to give a fair amount of freedom for the use of hyperbole in stuff like the psalms and in the prophetic material.

For the psalmist, compare the duration of the sun compared to the duration of a man. In the eyes of the psalmist, the sun has been around for thousands upon thousands of years, and will remain in the sky for another thousands upon thousands of years. Yet a man can only live an average of 70-80 years. The writer is just using hyperbole: the sun will be around far longer than even a thousand generations of man, so for as long as the sun sits in the sky God will remain faithful to his people. It's really just a poetic guarantee: if the sun's still up there, you know God is still faithful.

For the prophetic material in Isaiah and Revelation, it is again hyperbole, with a heavy dose of metaphor. God is light, and he is the one who truly lights our lives. (After all, it was God who is light who created the sun. God's light is superior to the sun's light.) It's an extended application of the 'God is light and we abide in the light' type of metaphor that we find in 1 John. I don't believe it is meant to be taken literally at all.

I like what you say here, and I tend to agree overall, I think. But I'm still unclear what your overall position would be, whether the literal sun continues to shine upon the earth for all eternity, or whether it doesn't? If by chance you choose the latter, what would you be basing that on? The same for the former to. Hopefully I'm not asking anything too unreasonable, since that might be a lot for you to have to try and explain. I'm interested in your opinion, the reason why I ask.

[fewarechosen]

I like what you say here, and I tend to agree overall, I think. But I'm still unclear what your overall position would be, whether the literal sun continues to shine upon the earth for all eternity, or whether it doesn't? If by chance you choose the latter, what would you be basing that on? The same for the former to. Hopefully I'm not asking anything too unreasonable, since that might be a lot for you to have to try and explain. I'm interested in your opinion, the reason why I ask.

i think the sun is gone - elements themselves are burned up sun is made of elements - dont need that light anymore its crude and temporary and just a shadow of real Sun.

this Sun below never passes and will be the Light

Mal_4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

same with when He says let there be light - i dont take that to mean sunlight

[markedward]

My own opinion is that it doesn't matter. We don't build creeds around arbitrary stuff like what method of healing a blind man is (mud or spit?), or whether the satan is a lion or a dragon or an angel... much less something like the sun. The simple fact is that the sun sticks around longer than man, so God is as faithful to us as the sun shines over us. And the simple fact is that in the end there will be a new heavens and new earth, where God's light will fill all things. To me, the literalness of an eternal sun or a non-existent sun just isn't important.

(In other words, I don't care about the issue enough to formulate a position either way, and even if I wanted to, I don't think Scripture sets out to tell us something like this, since those texts aren't focusing on the sun, they're focusing on God's relationship to his creation, short of people picking-and-choosing which metaphors or hyperboles are supposed to be literal without any real reasons why they're doing so.)

[jayne]

So let me ask this then, using the Psalms 72 example. Why use something as an example that really doesn't continue forever? Why say His name shall endure for ever, then say His name shall be continued as long as the sun, if the sun itself doesn't literally continue forever? No contrast is being used here, but a comparison instead.

As Mark said, it's using a comparison that man would understand. Compared to human lifespans, lifespans of celestial bodies could be viewed as forever even though we know that's not literally true.

[Noeb]

Rev 22.5 there shall be no night there.....Where? In the new Jerusalem. It does not say there will be no sun for light on the new earth.

[fewarechosen]

Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

tells me they dont need it and no light of sun will be there

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


to me it goes hand in hand with - the very elements will burn up, to me that means everything in this material world.
oxygen,carbon,dirt,trees anyway you want to look at an element that we know in science is wiped out.

so if He wipes out those elements hes not going to make a new sun made from same elements, they are gone. hence no need of sun. but Sun will be there/Light

all this is temporary and Hes gonna wipe that out.

[Noeb]

But the sun is part of the heavens.

[keck553]

i think things here on earth/universe are a shadow of spiritual things.

For what purpose would God create something that in s't real? That makes no sense.

i think the sun that gives light that we see with our eyes.

The sun's generation of the photons is incidental to it's function.

is a shadow of the Sun that gives light to our souls.

Mal_4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

How does this fit into your shadow-doctrine?

Rev_10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:


so while one is made up of crude elements, the other is made of real Light

"As" is a key word here.

[fewarechosen]

i dont have a shadow doctrine. i was just using simple words how i would phrase it without having to make long winded posts.

Col_2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

but that above is the general idea scripturely speaking, if it doesnt make sense dont accept it, not trying to argue some point just how i conveyed it.

[fewarechosen]

But the sun is part of the heavens.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

the Sun isnt He was with Him from start, before heavens were created and He will be the light. the sun, gone.

this is real, but temporary