There will be a sun or there won't be a sun in eternity?

[ewq1938]

Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

[divaD]

How does that mean that the new Jerusalem can't be the bride of Christ? The new Jerusalem is the name of the city of the Father AND it is the bride of Christ. How can you try to say that the new Jerusalem is not the bride of Christ in light of what it says in Rev 21:9-10? Shouldn't you make sure your interpretation of Rev 3:12 agrees with what it says in Rev 21:9-10?

Is there any reason that you would conclude that the one who overcomes would not be of the church? Wouldn't all overcomers make up the church? So how would overcomers, IOW the church, have the name of the city of the Father, which is new Jerusalem, meaning them, written on them?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Here's how this would have to be understood according to your understanding, which then makes no sense of the text. Him that overcometh..this is talking about more than one person of course..so all overcomers combined would equal the church. You also conclude that the new Jerusalem equals the church. So let's see if the text agrees with that conclusion.

THE CHURCH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and THE CHURCH shall go no more out: and I will write upon THE CHURCH the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is THE CHURCH , which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon THE CHURCH my new name.

There is something wrong with this interpretation. The text is not making sense. But there is only one thing wrong with it..this part..and the name of the city of my God, which is THE CHURCH...that's what doesn't make sense. You suggested that I needed to understand Revelation 3:12 according to Revelation 21:9-10, when I would say that you would need to understand Revelation 21:9-10 according to Revelation 3:12. IOW the new Jerusalem is not the church. But it will be where the church will dwell. It will be that same place that Jesus said He went to prepare (John 14:2-3), that is the new Jerusalem.

[John146]

Is there any reason that you would conclude that the one who overcomes would not be of the church?

No.

Wouldn't all overcomers make up the church?

Yes, along with Jesus Christ Himself as its head and cornerstone. But you need to differentiate between individual members of the church and the entity we call the church as a whole.

So how would overcomers, IOW the church, have the name of the city of the Father, which is new Jerusalem, meaning them, written on them?

I am not the church itself and you are not the church itself, we each are members of the church. So, it's saying we would have the name of the spiritual city we belong to written on us.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Here's how this would have to be understood according to your understanding,

It's strange that you are trying to tell me what my understanding is when you clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

which then makes no sense of the text.

Your understanding of what I'm saying makes no sense but I believe what I'm actually saying does make sense.

Him that overcometh..this is talking about more than one person of course..so all overcomers combined would equal the church.

But it's only talking about each individual overcomer having the name of the city of God written on them. The way you're talking equates each individual overcomer with the church as a whole. Again, you're not differentiating between an individual member of the church and the church as a whole.

You also conclude that the new Jerusalem equals the church.

The new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ (Rev 21:9-10). Is the bride of Christ not the church?

So let's see if the text agrees with that conclusion.

THE CHURCH...

Why are you replacing "He who overcomes" with "the church"? An individual who overcomes is not the church. He is one member of the church. So, you misrepresented my view right from the start.

There is something wrong with this interpretation.

No, there is something wrong with your interpretation of what I'm saying.

The text is not making sense. But there is only one thing wrong with it..this part..and the name of the city of my God, which is THE CHURCH...that's what doesn't make sense. You suggested that I needed to understand Revelation 3:12 according to Revelation 21:9-10, when I would say that you would need to understand Revelation 21:9-10 according to Revelation 3:12.

Neither one of those things you said there is right. We need to understand each of them according to scripture as a whole and we need to interpret each of them in such a way that they don't contradict each other or any other scripture.

IOW the new Jerusalem is not the church.

According to Rev 21:9-10 the new Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife". Does other scripture not teach that the church is the bride of Christ?

But it will be where the church will dwell.

Why does Rev 21:9 say that the angel was showing John the dwelling place of "the bride, the Lamb's wife" then? It doesn't say that, it just says he was showing him "the bride, the Lamb's wife". The church will dwell on the entire new earth, not just part of the new earth.

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Are you going to try to tell me that we can't conclude from this passage that the angel showed John "the bride, the Lamb's wife" which was "that great city, the holy Jerusalem", which is a reference to the new Jerusalem? He was clearly equating "the bride, the Lamb's wife" with "that great city, the holy Jerusalem", so what does that tell you? I don't understand how you can read Rev 21:9-10 and try to deny that it indicates that "the bride, the Lamb's wife" is "that great city, the holy Jerusalem", which refers to the new Jerusalem.

[RogerW]

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The above would be some of the main passages indicating no more sun someday.

Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The above passages seem to indicate the sun has to go on shining forever, as well as the moon and stars. So either we have a contradiction or a misunderstanding.

Since context determines meaning, then I would think that's the only way to solve this seemingly contradiction. So what are your thoughts on this and why?

David, I haven't read all the replies here, so maybe this has already been pointed out. But have you considered that it is eternal heaven that will have no need of sun, night, moon or stars? Not necessarily saying none of these will exist in the new earth, but in heaven before the new heaven and new earth.

Re*21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re*21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Re*21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[RabbiKnife]

The New Jerusalem is the church, it is not a physical city.

[divaD]

David, I haven't read all the replies here, so maybe this has already been pointed out. But have you considered that it is eternal heaven that will have no need of sun, night, moon or stars? Not necessarily saying none of these will exist in the new earth, but in heaven before the new heaven and new earth.

Re*21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re*21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Re*21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I'm not following, RW. Wasn't there a time when there was no sun period? So what would the sun have to do with eternal heaven to begin with?

[divaD]

The New Jerusalem is the church, it is not a physical city.

Using the same reasoning then. The USA is the American people, it is not a physical country.

[RogerW]

David, I haven't read all the replies here, so maybe this has already been pointed out. But have you considered that it is eternal heaven that will have no need of sun, night, moon or stars? Not necessarily saying none of these will exist in the new earth, but in heaven before the new heaven and new earth.

Re*21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re*21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Re*21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I'm not following, RW. Wasn't there a time when there was no sun period? So what would the sun have to do with eternal heaven to begin with?

Sort of a carry over from the discussion in end times. We go heaven when we die, and in heaven there is no need for these things that gauge time. Because heaven is outside of time. This too could be said of the new heaven and new earth, for they too will exist outside of time when re-created everlasting.

[RabbiKnife]

Using the same reasoning then. The USA is the American people, it is not a physical country.

Except that Revelation is crystal clear (sort of like a river runs through it) that New Jerusalem = the Bride of Christ.

The Bride of Christ is not a physical city, and I don't see how one ever makes it into one.